I Love Bacon as much as the next guy, but at what cost?

***Warning: graphic and disturbing images and text are in the link, which connects to a story about a Smithfield Foods owned factory farm, Circle Four Farm in Utah.***

https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missing-piglets-animal-rights-glenn-greenwald/

Glenn Greenwald, the author of the above article, says this on Twitter about the implications of sustaining ourselves on factory farms:

“There have to be spiritual costs from sustaining ourselves based on mass torture, misery, and slaughter of living things who suffer.”

Is this true?


Well, I don’t think at this point, despite enormous effort on the part of industry and government to cover it up, that we can deny that our meat is largely a product of “mass torture, misery and slaughter of living things who suffer.” That part is increasingly getting documented, despite the high cost to the courageous activists that risk almost everything to shed light on what is happening in our livestock industry.

But what of the other part of his point, the idea of our collectively suffering “spiritual costs” for consuming animals that have lived tortured, miserable lives? Is that true?

RfM could argue the idea of “spiritual” all day long, and have on several occasions. But I wonder, does believing that living things are without a soul, without a spirit, make it easier to stomach the suffering of living things? Is our descent into the practice of mass torture and suffering of animals a result of our increasing secularization? After all, our livestock practices are predicated on the rational practices of any other business. The spirit of humans or livestock are not part of the equation. Is this a mistake? Will we pay for it? I think we already are.


I’m struggling to not do what I really want to do: preach. But allow me to say one thing:

If you cannot go without eating meat (I can’t), then take the next best step and pay more to get your meat locally from humane farms. There is a lot of bullshit around “humane”. Whole Foods was just busted along with some chicken farm suppliers caught torturing its chickens and falsely advertising. There’s a lot of bullshit around food, as I’m sure everyone knows. So you have to actually visit the farm, meet the producers, tour the facility, etc. (In the Calgary area, I recommend using TKRanch out by Hanna).

Human

I struggle with this. Thank ghawd for blinders.

Thank you for this.

I often feel alone while struggling with this issue.

Please tell me that you've researched it and Costco is high up on the humane ladder...

When I was on the interstates a lot, I used to see the truck loads of hogs heading into LA.

What if, when humanity hits 10 billion, the alien ranchers come to harvest us, leaving behind just enough breeding stock... Maybe the meteorite 65 million years ago was just a cover story so there'd be an explanation for the disappearance of a world full of dinosaurs?

I bet we're good eatin'!

About thirty years ago, I saw a documentary film about meat producing (creating and growing meat animals, including what happens to the "discards") and meat "processing" (taking live animals and then turning them into dead animals which become actual "meat").

I watched the entire documentary, every moment of it, and when it was over I said (to myself) "I will never eat meat again."

And (with a couple of mistakes, plus one order of McDonald's French fries when I was literally passing out from low blood sugar in the middle of Texas and McDonald's was the ONLY food source available or open at that moment), I never have.

I do swallow some capsules of nutritional supplements which are made from meat by-products, and I do drink down one tablespoon of granular collagen (a meat by-product) in water every morning, as the first step in my breakfast.

My rationale is that the animal-based supplements I use are by-products of meat producing, and my taking, or not taking, them would not affect the meat producing and processing industry in any way. (The animals, as sources of meat, are already emphatically dead, and have been carved up into large chunks, by the time that by-product processing begins at some other facility.)

I really do need those particular supplements, and I realize that this personal stance of mine is hypocritical, but I have chosen to live with the hypocrisy.

I have been mostly-veg for a long time now, and absent some kind of comprehensive famine or a genuine emergency situation such as a plane crash where tinned meat is the only thing to eat, I cannot imagine going back to eating meat, for all kinds of reasons (some of them spiritual) that are important to me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2017 04:55PM by Tevai.

The quest for perfection is an illusion and recipe for disappointment.

I've sat here for a full 3 minutes before I typed my first word. I want to tread lightly.

I do understand your struggle. Many people go through the same thing. You are not alone.

But there is no such thing as humane slaughter. Think how you would feel if you were facing it.

That said, you would be amazed at what you are capable of. I think you and many others in the same position sell themselves short. You have been sold a bill of goods by the pork producers about the delights of bacon.

From my own experience, it was hardest thing I ever thought I'd do and it ended up being one of the easiest things I ever did. And the benefits are broad, countless, and ongoing. The greatest of these is joy.

Finally, you would be shocked how quickly you stop thinking of it as food.

CateS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Finally, you would be shocked how quickly you stop
> thinking of it as food.

From my experience as well, I totally agree with this.

Excellent post, CateS!!

it's the only kind I have been able to eat for a long time.

Because of a hereditary kidney disease, I'm supposed to avoid meat-based protein, and anything salted, pickled or processed makes it even worse.

No bacon. No corned beef on St. Paddy's Day.

It's amazing, how you can do without meat when you have to. By choice? Hell no! I'm itching for a slab of prime rib as I write this. But just thinking of what it would do to my blood pressure within the next 24 hours kind of dampens my appetite. I want to be around as my grandkids grow up.

What effect would 4oz of sirloin in a spinach salad have?

The most exotic salad I ever ate was spinach combined with caramelized pecan pieces, mandarin orange sections, and feta cheese. That was SERIOUSLY delicious!

Fully agree. There is no humane slaughter. We don't need animal flesh and blood to live healthy on earth. Meat eaters should visit factory feedlots and slaughterhouses, research meat and milk processing, animal feeds and drugs, preservatives etc., and reassess their choices. There's no reason for mankind to enslave and torture and murder animals for unhealthy meat milk and eggs.

I'm vegan, it's not hard to do. I eat seeds, nuts, beans. Sometimes I make baked white beans with smoky barbecue sauce and Field Roast frankfurters, tastes kinda porky. I don't miss meat. I sometimes use Daiya veg cheeses. I eat some soy meat subs, but prefer pea, grain and fungus veg "meat" sources for cooking. I fuel up with carby fruits and roots.

I'm free of the whole animal foods issue. I'm more aware of harmlessness in daily life. My body is much happier now.

CateS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But there is no such thing as humane slaughter.

I agree.
But I reached a different conclusion:

That maybe, just maybe, there isn't much reason to opt for "humane" farmers/meat producers. Because there's no such thing as humane slaughter. We have to kill to eat meat. That's always been the case.

"Ethically," which is better for the animal: a short life ended quickly, or a more "cushy" life, with a "humane" end? To me, the animal is just as dead at the end either way. And (as above), there's no "humane" way to kill anything. Is it more "merciful" to living things we raise to eat to quickly fatten 'em up and dispatch them, or to treat them somewhat like "pets," only to still kill them in the end?

Not sure I have answers to the above. Just that for myself, living things we raise to eat aren't pets. They're living things we raise to eat. The more efficiently we do that, the "better" it is for the living things IMHO.

And as far as food safety, food availability, the effort it takes to get food, and more...we're far better off with "living thing factories" than we were when we went out and hunted living things (and in the end, just like any way we raise them now, they wound up dead and over our fires).

I don't eat nearly as much meat as the "average American." But I eat it. And I will continue to do so...we're omnivores, and meat is a vital part of our diet. The best science we have says "supplements" aren't a complete or optimal replacement for what meat gives us. So I'll stick with meat. And yeah, it's often really tasty (I hope you realize that you crave it and find it tasty because your body evolved those feelings to get you to eat it, 'cause it's good for your body...).

I'm not discounting Human's OP. I ask myself the same questions at times. I wonder what the "best" thing is to do. And I don't have all the answers, though I agree that abjectly horrible treatment of the things we raise to eat isn't just "bad" for them, it's "bad" for us (you don't get the healthiest animals that way, diseases are more prevalent, and often the meat quality isn't as good). Leaving *those* kind of practices out (which aren't the case anymore with most of the "factory farms" anyway), I don't see treating the things we raise to kill and eat as pets as being much, if any, more "ethical" than a well-run factory farm.

Feel free to disagree...it's a difficult topic, and there's probably no one "right" answer.

They have a right not to be born. And they wouldn't exist had they not been bred to be a commodity.

nutritionfacts.org

Factory farms are not humane in any way. They are pitiably squalid, and cause immense pain and emotional suffering to the beings imprisoned in them.

The meat and dairy industries are also destroying the environment of the entire planet.

Please visit a slaughterhouse, a factory farm, a "dairy", and then evaluate from a perspective of real world experience, not abstraction. Check out exactly what "modern agri-science" has come up with, to provide you with your burger and ice cream.

hello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Factory farms are not humane in any way. They are
> pitiably squalid, and cause immense pain and
> emotional suffering to the beings imprisoned in
> them.

Not all of them are. And perhaps the real "argument" is indeed about emotion...but ours or the animals? Do the animals have emotions? Is being in a factory farm more harmful to the animal (emotional or otherwise) than being raised in your back yard, when the end is the same (dead and eaten)?

> The meat and dairy industries are also destroying
> the environment of the entire planet.

So is your car. The point is there are environmentally reasonable ways to do "factory farms."

> Please visit a slaughterhouse, a factory farm, a
> "dairy", and then evaluate from a perspective of
> real world experience, not abstraction.

What makes you think I haven't? Just because I didn't reach the same emotional conclusion you did?
The fact is, I've not only visited, I've worked on them.
And I don't reach the same conclusion as you. Perhaps because you conclusion is emotional rather than factual?

You do realize that vegetarians and vegans kill living things to eat as well, right?

So can I assume your outrage has something to do with sentience (or lack thereof) of the things that you find OK to kill and eat? Is your line of "I'll kill and eat this living thing, but not this living thing" any more absolute than anyone else's? Are you ignoring the simple fact that every single living thing on this planet eats other living things to survive?

Just for fun, can you pretend you're a vegetarian and post a comment? Let's see how you do------

Most humans now live in cites and urban areas and not on farms and no longer grow their own food.

If we make sure industrially farmed animals are raised well and put down humanely it's for our benefit, not theirs...

I think there is a spiritual side. If it's the right cut and cooked right (not too crispy) it definitely can produce a spiritual experience :)

The only possible (lame) excuse is that there is no vegetarian who would NOT eat meat, even if he/she had to kill and cook it, to avoid starving to death.

Of course there are some who would chose death, but I can't conceive of a good argument that would have me agree that over half would chose death. Since such an experiment cannot be conducted (ethically), I suppose we'll never know.

But one must recognize the Donner Party and the 1972 Andes plane crash...

If someone tried to force me to participate in cannibalism, I'd kill and eat them!

Grew up on a farm. Had chickens, pigs, and dairy cows.
I'm in heaven when I have a nice slice of bacon with my over easy eggs (that I had to chase the hen off to get) and glass of raw milk. I'm in celestial heaven when I have a nice ribeye cooked in my old cast iron skillet. It's a spiritual experience.

I believe all 'living' things have 'souls' so where does that leave me spiritually?

I believe all living things have purpose and it's ok if your purpose is to die for another ----- because their souls/spirits don't die just their unnecessary 'earthly' bodies.

Since, I believe in reincarnation the spirit/soul is what is important not the 'earthly/temporary' body. They will get another body if they chose to reincarnate.

I suppose this is why the animals are lining up willingly, by choice, to climb the slaughterhouse ramps? It is their chosen purpose, after all...
(sarc)

(sarc off)

Just as it is your choice to torture and murder them.

hello Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as it is your choice to torture and murder
> them.

The other day, I watched a coyote on my property chase down, catch, and eat a jack rabbit. The rabbit surely felt abject fear (if rabbits are capable of that), desperation, and pain until the moment it died.

Does that make the coyote a torturer and murderer?

you do love your theories and abstractions, iffy...

Even the free range chickens have an ugly fact associated with their existence. Half of all chickens born are male and they are of no use to egg producers. Male chickens do not provide as good meat, either. So millions of fluffy little day old male chicks are killed. Mostly by being ground up alive. If you don't believe me, try googling "what happens to male chicks?"

Curry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even the free range chickens have an ugly fact
> associated with their existence. Half of all
> chickens born are male and they are of no use to
> egg producers. Male chickens do not provide as
> good meat, either. So millions of fluffy little
> day old male chicks are killed. Mostly by being
> ground up alive. If you don't believe me, try
> googling "what happens to male chicks?"

I used to know someone (female) who worked her way through college by de-beaking female chickens, a process which qualifies (in my opinion, and now that I know about it) as torture.

:(

They don't cut off the beak, per se. They cut off the lip on the beak.

Remember the old joke- Well, does a chicken have lips? YUP they do.

in Mormon temples--a sign of the lattter-days. (This is not a joke):

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2027537,2027537#msg-2027537



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2017 02:26AM by steve benson.

Is there a connection between the sufferings that humans cause and the sufferings they experience? Connect the dots.

If it's true that what you put out there is the window through which things come back to you (and I realize people may have quite blinkered ways of believing this), then I don't see how you can avoid the group karma angle. Things which we may see no "scientific" connection between may still have a psychic connection (a dimension I believe science will extend to in the future). Not to sound like some pat televangelist, but maybe psychic disturbing forces generated by cruel or at best insensitive practices do accumulate in some subtle level and then get discharged back upon humanity at weak points in the grid, like weaknesses in humanity's immune system. (No "god" involved, unless you personify such forces animisthically.) Maybe through susceptible "crazy" individuals or catastrophic weather disturbances. If we do live in a completely interconnected system...

Just throwing this out for speculation.

"animistically" (computer autocorrects to the different word)

"I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die..."

I have no problem with your speculation.

My only real objection to the speculation you've painted for us is that it means that the Universe is not a cold, cruel, heartless, uncaring, disdainful system. And if that is the case, I need more than speculation as to who set it in motion, why it was set in motion and what the accepted standards of behavior are. Because if one, then the other ought to follow...

If one accepts evolution (survival of the fittest), one has to be cognizant of seemingly impartial cruelty. I remember learning that there is a species of bird that eats (and thus survives to breed, which is the hallmark of survival) the eggs of other birds. Then I learned about the Japanese practice of herding dolphin and slaughtering them, as if whale hunting wasn't bad enough! And the slaughter of the passenger pigeon, and the buffalo...

What do you suspect the break down is, percentage-wise, of human beings who have no problem working in slaughter houses or randomly shooting animals for just for the heck of it? And can members of each group learn to fit in with the other?

I personally don't believe there is a one to one connection between the damage one does and how one's life turns out. I'm a Bell Shaped Curve kind of guy, in a size 34. Sometimes I wish there were answers, but I'm getting by without them.

I hear you, and that's why I mentioned group karma. There is not always that "one to one connection" in one individual's life (though there may be in successive lives, if that's true). But perhaps our 'individualism,' at least on the egoic level, is largely an illusion (as the ego is asserted to be by Buddhism and other Eastern traditions). We contribute to the group cloud and it rains on all of us.

Richard, thanks for being a good conversationalist!

These discussions are mother's milk to me, because I don't have a horse in the race, and thus have nothing to prove.

Absent a 'one to one connection' between one's behavior and the positive or negative results, I'm left just keeping score, but with no basis to know when the game is over or who won.

And then to suppose answers that can only kindly be called 'imaginary', I'm stuck wanting a form, any form, of proof, other than personal testimony. "Imaginary" covers a lot of territory and I'm really good and making stuff up, and keeping a straight face.

Remember high school geometry and how you had to show the steps in your 'proof' that lead to the correct answer? That's how I want life to be. But it isn't.

I didn't mean to say there is 'no' connection between behavior and results--that would go against all psychology. Aside from obvious social consequences, internally I've come to view it as a matter of ourselves imposing consequences upon ourselves: self-judgment, rather than some divine judgment (though we project it out there and see it as coming at us from other people, situations, or "God"). This is not a conscious process; it operates subconsciously.

Sure, there are mafia dons who live to a serene old age, but even though there may be a great mental barrier between their ego and their judging superego or conscience that prevents the connection between deed and consequence from being noticed, I think it's deep within their mind's programming and will come out in a future life (or maybe some postmortem state). It sounds heartless, but maybe that's the case with many "senseless" deaths or sufferings of "innocent" people in this life. Who knows what their subconscious has in store from the past?

By the way, I have no way of knowing another's subconscious and would never pronounce that someone's troubles are "deserved." Everyone should be loved and helped. (An anthropologist friend told me that many "Buddhist" men in Thailand have no qualms about exploiting child prostitutes because "it is their karma to be exploited." And what karma are the exploiters laying for themselves? Will they be the next generation of exploited children?)

What proof is there? No lab experimentation on this available (haha). The way that others who formulated these "karmic principles" -- "Mind is the author of all things. All things are mind made. If a person speaks or acts with an unskillful mind
suffering follows him like the cartwheel follows the ox" beginning of the Buddhist Dhammapada) -- did so was through deep introspection. Following someone else's teaching (the way of religions) is not enough. One must see for oneself the buried connections within oneself.

Richard Foxe and elderolddog, thank you for discussing the spiritual question.

FYI, that's not called preaching, it's called rationalizing.

Next time you're about to enjoy a BLT, remember you're getting pig toenails, pigshit, and pig hair in your grub. It doesn't bother me, but I find it ruins some people's appetite.

First off pigs do not have toe nails. Secondly We have two eyes on the front of our head. Binocular vision. We have this feature so we can track and throw, hit, shoot a moving object. Carrots do not run. If you believe in evolution, we are meat eaters. No more evil than weasels that will get into a pigeon coop and kill every one, for the pleasure of the kill. I no longer believe in fairie tails. I do fell bad for the animals, I am human.

Tarsiers are primates who eat insects. Orangutans are primates who eat fruit. Binocular vision can evolve without your asserted "prey-chasing, meat eating" habit. Arboreal life requires the same skills as hunting moving prey.

Your premise sounds very much like a fairy tale, imo.

Just because we have the kind of teeth that CAN eat meat doesn't mean we SHOULD, although there may have been a time in years long ago when we did have to, in order to stay healthy and to keep our children alive. But that was long before factory farming and factory dairies. :( Factory farming and dairy farming are hideously cruel to sentient beings with the ability to feel many of the emotions we ourselves feel. We do NOT "need meat" in order to be healthy. We need protein, but it can come from many other sources. We do not need to drink the milk of cows who have been bred only to have a baby that will be taken from them to be turned into "veal," while the mother cries for her baby but instead is hooked to an uncomfortable milking machine.

I no longer eat meat. I no longer buy milk or cheese products except those made for vegans. Veggies of all kinds, grains, fruits, nuts, and berries. Yum! Once in a great while I will eat some "wild caught" salmon, but I feel guilty and like a hypocrite when I do, so those times are few and far between.

My son has been job-hunting and his father (my first husband, who was abusive) and his father's wife call him very nasty, unflattering names because he refuses to work at the local slaughterhouse--er, excuse me, "meat production facility." His dad calls him the same thing that Mr. Trump, the presidential pretender, has said he likes to grab women by. They also call him lazy, a "wuss," etc. The slaughterhouse is out of bus range, and my son has no car, but his dad pointed out that the slaughterhouse has a bus that comes into town to pick up employees who have no transportation, and the pay is good, he says. My son says he would rather starve than work there. I'm with him. I couldn't do it, either. So I will support him until he finds something else, and I think he has--just this week. Quite a relief! I know people who would not work in a slaughterhouse, yet they go to the store for packaged meat that someone else has tortured and killed for them. I guess they figure it's okay if they pay somebody else to do it. Like murder. It would be wrong to murder your unfaithful wife/husband, but if you can pay somebody else to do it....hey--it's all good. Right?

When I am driving on the highway and get near a truck loaded with terrified animals, I have to pull off the road until I am no longer anywhere near them. I cry so much I can't see to drive.

This is a subject about which people disagree. Everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to have an opinion. As for myself, I don't have much money, so I don't have anything on my 'bucket list" except this; to die with a clear conscience. I can't travel, see the world, all the exotic and exciting and beautiful places. But I CAN die with a clear conscience, but only if I stay true to vegan (and other ethical) principles. At least, that's how I see it. But I can't even do that if I continue to pay people to cause such tremendous suffering to sentient animals, in my name.

But that's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Not for the pig it isn't.

I've tried to come up with something clever to add to this topic, but every time I write something down now, I realize that the issues surrounding circle of life, the death and natural brutality found therein, and what human ethics should apply are far to complex for my feeble mind to analyze. So I must reduce the issue to this:

I eat bacon because I like it.

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've tried to come up with something clever to add
> to this topic, but every time I write something
> down now, I realize that the issues surrounding
> circle of life, the death and natural brutality
> found therein, and what human ethics should apply
> are far to complex for my feeble mind to analyze.
> So I must reduce the issue to this:
>
> I eat bacon because I like it.

In my Bat Mitzvah class (it was a class composed of entirely adult Jewish women who, for any of a number of reasons, had never been "Bat Mitzvah-ed" when they were twelve or thirteen), there was a woman who, during class one evening, turned to me in a kind of confused anxiety and proclaimed:

"...but I LIKE bacon!"

I told her to go on eating bacon...unless and until she decided, at some point, that she no longer wanted to eat bacon anymore.

[I should, perhaps, explain that this was an entertainment industry synagogue (you had to be "in" the industry in some way in order to become a member, though anyone could come to services, whether they were a member or not), so we had Jews industry-wide, from throughout most of the Jewish spectrum, in our congregation, except for those who were truly observant.]

This isn't just your response, Humberto!! :)

"To name just a few, in 2007, an undercover investigator at the Westland/Hallmark Meat Company in California filmed workers forcing sick cows, many unable to walk, into the “kill box” by repeatedly shocking them with electric prods, jabbing them in the eye, prodding them with a forklift, and spraying water up their noses" https://theintercept.com/2017/10/05/factory-farms-fbi-missing-piglets-animal-rights-glenn-greenwald/

Way back in 1988 I worked in the office for Hallmark Meat. Back then it was named "Dairyland Meat Co." I remember being given a "tour" of the kill floor. Good gosh, it was horrid, the cattle were so scared.

^^^ ^^^ ^^^

A big part of the reason why I made the personal decision to never eat meat again.


Thank you for this, Margie.

Tevai, would you eat chicken, say, that you’ve raised yourself?

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai, would you eat chicken, say, that you’ve
> raised yourself?

No.

I also have had trouble dealing with how cruel biology is and accepting I am part of it. There has to be killing for others to live all along in the animal kingdom.

This design alone is so disturbing that it would point to a malevolent creator if he was omnificent (if I were inclined to believe in one which I'm not). What we see in nature is exactly what we would expect from evolution.

Joseph Campbell helped me a lot when I came to the point where I was angry that I was a human. I've quit rationalizing but am disappointed that humans continue to be as cruel as other predators in nature.

All I can do is make choices for me when I can. It's not easy and I don't like being a pain-in-the rear vegan in public.

I would say I am 70% vegan and 80% vegetarian. When I have a choice, I select choices based on the likelihood that an animal would have been treated badly to be my meal. I avoid eating veal, pork and beef especially. Chicken rarely if no better choices. I try to select shrimp or no meat if possible. Somehow I've convinced myself that shrimp would not suffer as much as a cow being raised to slaughter.

I am willing to pay extra if the meat describes how the animal was raised on the packaging.

Killing a plant is not the same as killing a calf to me.

I am stuck being a human in this crazy food chain web.

I believe we are getting closer to synthesizing meat practically which might help this dilemma. Sentience and suffering is my primary concern when it comes to meat. I can't expect the brutality of nature to change in the wild, but I can try to prevent as much suffering as I can.

"Killing a plant is not the same as killing a calf to me."
______________________________________________________

That is fine ---- for you! However, if all living things have 'souls or not' it is the same! Killing something living is 'killing'.

Many Christians and others believe 'Heaven' has beautiful flowers, animals, etc.

Just because plants, show no fear, does not mean they are 'happy and fully willing' to be killed for what ever purpose such as food, shelter, clothing, etc. etc.

People can 'rationalize' many things but it is hard denying that when plants or animals are 'killed/destroyed' that their 'earthly life/lives' are terminated.

I understand your point and I am guilty of speciesism. However, I am prioritizing by the complexity of the neurological and brain capacity for suffering.

There is no evidence that plaints have souls, and furthermore, there is no organ in plants showing thought. Their framework in in DNA construction for replication does not have a repository for active thinking (suffering).

If you are comfortable killing your child to save a plant because they both have souls and have equal value when it comes to killing, then alrighty.


BTW, Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land was a thought provoking book about food (eating people who die out of respect). Plus, studying ethics about the value of life (what is our reason for believing a human with no mental capacity in a coma is more valuable than a horse)? Scary priorities to think about.

I don't need to make up the "soul" nonsense or what is in people's imaginary heavens for this issue. There are actual biological facts to consider. While I wish we did not have to kill plants or animals, I didn't create this mess.

I am glad you agree 'killing' is killing whether it be plant or animal!

I never mentioned 'suffering' or 'killing my child verses a plant' ---- why you would bring these up to make your response 'appear more intellectual' is beyond me!

You said:

"That is fine ---- for you! However, if all living things have 'souls or not' it is the same! Killing something living is 'killing'."



It's not "trying to be intellectual" to point out the obvious conclusion to your statement. You did not provide any criteria for prioritizing which living things should be killed over others in order to survive.

Lots of really good responses. Thank you.

(I hope some of you read Greenwald’s article. The FBI angle is reprehensible to the maximum.)


I make a distinction between the living conditions of the livestock while they are alive and the last days of their lives, the slaughter.

It’s the living conditions that I find most abhorrent, and it’s completely unnecessary. It’s torture.

The point of choosing ‘humane’ meat is to support farmers and ranchers who know the factory system is wrong (evil) and are trying to do things right. If they don’t have a market then they won’t survive.

The point is to make for a world where livestock only have to face “one bad day”, and do all we can to make that one bad day as little bad as we can.


I don’t believe in vegetarianism. I think animal fat and protein are essential for optimal health. I do believe in veganism, however, which makes ethical claims over health claims. If I chose veganism I would do so not because I think it is healthier. It is not. But as Tevai and others have pointed out, there are high quality supplements to minimize what is lost by forgoing meat.

What’s clear is that no matter our stance on eating meat, everyone agrees that the factory system today is an atrocity. We need to agitate for change to this system.

Human

I LOVE your post and your thoughtfulness on the matter. I completely believe that the suffering of animals, the hormones released and living in a constant state of stress affects the end product. Not to mention all of the medications they're given, living in their own and other animal feces and the pain they're subjected to. I was completely naive up until about 5 weeks ago. Long story short I started researching the cruelty of the meat industry/slaughter houses as well as the health implications for humans. I also learned a lot about the environmental/toxic burden of the amount of meat that Americans demand. I became vegetarian as a result. It's only been 5 weeks, but I have no desire to eat meat and feel strongly against the meat industry and animal cruelty. I also feel a lot lighter and healthier...a side bonus is that I have lost 10 lbs as well.

Thanks for posting!

After posting this and reading replies like yours, we’re seriously reconsidering our diet.

Thank you.

Check out the movie Forks Over Knives (I personally have a few issues with some of their research claims, but it will make you consider more than just suffering of the animals).

Maybe 4 years ago I went vegan. My blood pressure dropped. Lipid profile improved. I haven't had so much as a cold since. It was the healthiest I've ever been.

Listen to the case about open heart surgery and diet in the movie and also the impact of diet on the environment. There is much to think about when it comes to shipping food all over, chemicals, etc. too.

I wish I could say I remained as strongly vegan as I was initially. I got lazy and sure enough the BP and lipids rebounded. Now I try to buy the best quality produce I can find. Even being a most-of-the-time vegan has produced health benefits.

I think your perspective would be interesting, Human. If you ever happen to watch this movie, return and report.

Only plants live without killing, and our corpses are food for them.

It's all spiritual, or it's not.

I'm more concerned with factory livestock pollution than anything else. By raising all this meat in close quarters, we're killing lots of other lifeforms. The Mississippi delta is drowning in excrement.

P.S. If you forgo meat, you are the solution. I praise you. I try to eat as little as possible, and just fowl and fish at that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2017 10:34PM by donbagley.