A couple of weeks ago, I had a birthday and my sister took me out to lunch. She ordered a black tea, with a shrug and a "I need the caffeine today" comment. I had one too and proceeded to talk about different subjects until I confirmed that she and her temple-worker husband are as LDS as ever and that my niece is enjoying BYU.

Several days later, another friend also invited me to lunch and when I picked her up at her house, she was drinking water out of a bottle labeled with one of my favorite black teas. It puzzled me and then at lunch, she ordered a peach tea - peach flavored black tea as clearly stated on the menu. Same sort of conversation ensued while I tried to find out her LDS status and she is also as TBM as ever and talked to me at some length about how her daughters "kept their standards high" by insisting their non-LDS boyfriends get baptized so they could be married in the temple before agreeing to get engaged. All while sipping her tea.

I know green tea was debatable in some circles but is black tea OK now? My friends are not open-minded young adults but long time members in the 40 plus age range. Even my TBM mom is saying Joseph Smith said it was overly heating drinks that made them something to avoid - not coffee and tea specifically. Apparently she believes that a nice, reasonable temperature coffee or tea isn't against what Joseph Smith taught (although she doesn't seem to have started drinking either beverage.) What's going on?

CA girl,

I've written before in the forum about knowing Mormon missionaries years ago who taught and believed that the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom included all beverages containing caffeine, not just coffee and tea. That certainly isn't the case today and one can see both missionaries and other Mormons who believe that it is just fine to use caffeine as long as it is not in the form of coffee and tea.

I don't know how widespread among Mormons what you related in your post is, but I'm not surprised. Without the prohibition against caffeine, not drinking tea and coffee just becomes a matter of blind obedience. Mormons looking for reasons to justify it beyond that are bound to come up short. It is then a small step to feel that abstaining from tea and coffee is not all that important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2017 01:33PM by commongentile.

Nothing has changed, but if you understand the underlying mindset it can help to make some sense out of this. It consists of 5 points:

1. It is all made up. The whole religion is make believe. From beginning to end.

2. Because of this, appearance is more important than reality.

3. Many members of the church have known this for years, many more are coming to that realization everyday.

4. Some of these individuals value their integrity and when they realize it they resign and/or end up in places like this

5. For some it is a club, a tribe, a family tradition, or they are staying because leaving in any form is more difficult than staying.

A) For this last group, they will do almost ANYTHING to appear as though they are living and doing everything right (See point 2), but when they are with people who aren't part of the club or tribe, then they simply don't care, because...Point 1.

-Tig

You are correct.

At some point in my ~30 year journey through Mormonism I learned that members do whatever *they* want to do. Whatever the Church teaches (or does not teach?) as doctrine (or as a cultural practice?) is irrelevant. Members have to decide what their conscience allows them to do.

My TBM ex-wife was a case in point. When she wanted something, there was always a Churchy example she could cite to support herself; when she wanted to avoid something, there was another equally Churchy example she could cite to support that point. She uses the Church as a tool to manipulate others: the Church says a husband must to *this* (when it is really her opinion); later she can do that very thing because now she desires it.

A LDS counselor (and President of another Stake) once advised me that I only needed to confess a sin if I was "working on it." If I wasn't "working on it," then it was a personal matter between me and God. Of course, I told him that I was considering a choice between quitting Church and suicide because my feeble attempts living all the LDS standards were so discouraging.

The most minimal standard for the Word of Wisdom is no coffee, black (or green) tea, alcohol, tobacco or recreational drugs. The rest of D&C 89 can be open to personal revelation.

However, if your sister wants to have black tea, she can have tea. She may have learned that she can readily confess to having tea "occasionally, some time ago" or "to keep company with my sister" and be excused. Of course, that may only last until her current bishop is replaced. Then, she may decide to keep her wild tea-swilling ways to herself.

These people are playing with fire. Tea is the gateway drug to coffee. It's only a matter of time. And then, why not an Irish coffee? Haha. OMG this is hysterical. Grown adults! 2017. This is a thing! Mormons . . .


My elderly mother asked if I knew where to get green tea capsules because she heard it was good for something she is ailing with. I said, "Why don't you just have some green tea?" Well, she would NEVER do that. If its in a capsule it's medicine. I guess I will start putting my wine in capsule form.

I was dying to remind her that when I was a kid she gave us green tea when we were sick and the Mormon church itself wasn't quite as sick, yet. But I let it go. Also, I didn't bring up the fact I know my father the bishop used to give recommends to the older people who had drunk coffee all their lives. Not the young ones though. It's complicated with Mormons.

" I guess I will start putting my wine in capsule form."

That's kind of what a lot of Utah mormons do now. It's called Prozac or Valium.

my dad's bishop gave him a recommend when I got married even though it was an open secret that he went to the local cafe every morning for his coffee(my mom would not allow it in the house). He told my dad that if that was the worst thing he did, he could go to the temple.

So true. Every mormon I know has what they think is a legit excuse for whatever sin they commit.

HaHa. This is very good and very true and funny to boot. I had a temple recommend interview years ago and the stake president himself told me the green tea extract in my energy drink was no problem because it wasn't actual tea, as prohibited in the Word of Wisdom. I had a bishop around the same time who drank those 5 hour energy drinks while lecturing the youth about the sins of reading Twilight and having hair touch your the collar of your shirt if you have the priesthood.

When I was first leaving the church, DH would explain church to me in a way that made it obvious that the church is in the eye of the beholder. He was sure they taught things that validated his beliefs. My mom is the same way. I got him to study what they actually teach and he's inactive and drinking black tea today.

A friend of mine is Catholic but describes herself as a "cafeteria Catholic" meaning she goes along with the parts she likes and tosses out the beliefs she doesn't like. I suppose Mormons are the same. I know some who go gaga for family history and food storage but never go to the temple or worry about what they eat or wear.

In an office where I worked and where everyone was Mormon, one woman openly talked about her wine and coffee drinking. She sort of bragged about her knowledge in those areas. She was divorced from first husband who took her to the temple and married later to a non-Mormon who was actually pretty anti-Mormon. I finally asked her if she believed in the church and she was adamant that she fully believed in J.S., the BofM, temple marriage, etc. She bragged about her ex-husband because he made a lot of money and her daughters both married in the temple and received blessings from their priesthood holding father. Yet, that father and ex-husband was a serial cheater. She kind of complained that her new husband, although very kind and generous, was so anti-Mormon. She described herself as "spiritual" rather than religious. One of the other co-workers used to backbite that this woman was in for a serious surprise when she was booted into Hell for her bad habits.

I had one bishop who told me coffee ice cream made with real coffee was no problem. His wife ate it all the time. But another bishop was against it and forbade even drinking herbal teas. He claimed both fell under the title of "avoid even the appearance of evil". But, by all means, don't just use your own best judgment. It must be the priesthood that tells you what's right and wrong.

I cannot help wondering how Bednar is dealing with all this lax drinking of tea and Coke???? Bet he's having nightmares about people one day actually standing up before he does at church. Horror of horrors!!

Apparently there is more than one Holy Ghost inspiring Bishops. They seem to contradict each other a lot. I guess Holy Ghost is just a calling rather than an actual being and there is billions of them. And just like the bishops, they didn't study to become one? All Mormons are just winging it.

Maybe all Mormons are just going to be Holy Ghosts when they get to the CK. Joke's on you brothers and sisters. Watching little Johnny masturbate gets old after a while.

I have a twice divorced TBM friend. She is now single and has sex with her nevermo boyfriends. She doesn't feel guilty about it. She also can't get through the day without drinking a couple of glasses of wine. She doesn't seem to think it's a problem. She is absolutely aghast at the thought of moving in with a man before marriage though - she thinks it is morally wrong. She told me she had an interview with her bishop and told him about her sex life and that she drinks alcohol. She asked if she should still pay tithing and he said "yes, you should." She hasn't been threatened with excommunication for sex outside of marriage or for drinking alcohol. As long as she continues to pay her tithing (she makes six figures) everything is A-okay! She even teaches Relief Society!

I think LDS Inc. is letting a lot more slide today to collect tithing. If drinking coffee will cause a tithe paying member to leave the church, it's better to let them drink caffeine.

Yes, this:

>
> " If (a particular sin) will cause a tithe paying member to
> leave the church, it's better to let them (sin particularly)"
>

Once a TBM member has a hit-and-run with Bp, it's pretty much over; they can tell following Bps. that it's been discussed, No Matter details or making it right with any victims!

U see, it was the (claimed) discernment of first Bp. that counts!

As long as she continues to pay her tithing (she makes six figures) everything is A-okay!

That is the only steadfast doctrine in the church.

When I was a kid, Coca Cola and Pepsi were absolutely banned. Cokes were called a gateway to drugs. Mormons told me it was the caffeine that was banned, but if you drank a caffeine-free Coke, you would be taking on the appearance of evil. What color is your soda? was a question Mormons would ask other Mormons.

Slippery doctrine and situational ethics are the Mormon way.

I have seen a lot of this among the younger LDS members that I know. There is apparently a liberalizing attitude that makes distinctions between minor sins and major ones (tea or even alcohol are ok, premarital sex is not), even to the point of denying that the minor things are even prohibited. The attitude seems to admit of a certain level of individual autonomy in deciding one's own ethics, at least within a narrow band.

I do not recognize this attitude as Mormonism. The Mormonisim I grew up with was an all or nothing proposition. If the church was true, then it was all true and individualized judgements were obviously flawed.

This seems to be a spreading phenomenon and it is infuriating. It's just so dishonest because it purports to show that TSCC allows individuality and is not totalitarian. But that simply isn't true.

The extension of 'Agency', so long as the tithe is paid?

People nowadays are really trying to get value for their money.

The tithe is all that matters in the end. You can fake obedience, but there's no faking the money.

Not that Mormons actually read what there "prophets" said...

D&C 89-7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

So no hot drinks period. (My dad won't even drink hot chocolate)!

But guess what you can drink homemade wine!!!

D&C89-5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

So assemble together and have some homemade wine but stay away from the tea.

Let the butt chugging commence !

Ever since Tommy refused to give up his diet Pepsi, even after becoming the profit, sour, and unrevelator, mormons have been going after cold caffeine in record numbers.

It's all about follow the profit, you know.

This is true. The second woman in my story has a husband who is currently keeping the Mountain Dew company in business with his levels of consumption. She'd be better off convincing him to join her in the sin of black tea - that Mountain Dew is much worse for you in the amounts she says he's drinking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2017 12:10PM by CA girl.

My experience is similar to Hie's.

I grew up in a family with close ties to the royalty, and my father rose reasonably high in the church. He was in some ways a liberal, and he always thought that caffeinated sodas were permissible. He would tell a story of how on his mission an apostle visited and took several of the missionaries out and bought them cokes. The apostle and hence my father thought tea and coffee were the only forms of caffeine that were barred by the WoW. My old man also talked about a time when a high ranking GA showed up in his office to ask him to accept a prestigious local calling and simply ignored the two-quart bottle of coke on my father's desk. As a result of these experiences my dad always felt, and taught in his various congregations, that caffeinated sodas were not against the WoW.

Eventually, probably sometime in the late 1980s or 1990s, he and I were discussing the WoW and he said with regard to coke, pepsi, etc., "I think we've lost that battle" because the church was increasingly insisting that any caffeinated beverages were sinful. He still drank coke, but he was no longer openly taught that it was compatible with church teachings. He was quiet about the issue.

All that changed when Monson became president because he was so publicly and loudly pro-Diet Pepsi. As I recall, the church quietly de-emphasized the anti-soda rhetoric and then started teaching that caffeinated sodas were acceptable. BYU's decision that "coke is it" would thus seem a logical result of events set in motion by Monson's elevation. If the prophet drinks the stuff, the unspoken logic went, then Jesus probably does too.

Once again, Mormon doctrines turned out to be protean, a result of the changing preferences of whichever apostle managed to fend off death the longest.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the prophet
> drinks the stuff, the unspoken logic went, then
> Jesus probably does too.

Gee, you don't supposed that Coke -- now firmly ensconced at BYU -- will start making Provo-oriented commercials for their product, featuring a white and delightsome, long-haired, bearded man in 1st century middle-eastern garb and sandals, happily knocking back a cold Coke, do you?

Coke -- it's the real thing. Unlike Jesus.

:)

I think you can get away with anything as a Mormon nowadays. With the hemorrhaging of members that is going on, the new Mormon motto is "Beggars can't be choosers." They'll take anyone they can get or keep their hooks into now no matter what. Well, except for the children of gays. Can't have that!


Coffee? Tea? Alcohol? Child molestation? MLM schemes? Whatever. No Problem. But having two dads? No way Jose!

"Do you take your tea with milk and sugar Brother Johansen?"

My wife has a frosting recipe that makes her brownies a craving for anybody who's tasted them, including missionaries and my wife's Bishop and RS president. I like it, too, and I'm not a chocolate fan.

The secret ingredient? Where the recipe asks for vanilla extract, she uses Canadian Club Whiskey, and she's not careful about precise measurements.