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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 08:22AM

But hope for what?

Racism?

Xenophobia?

Misogyny?

Intolerance?

LBGTQIA Discrimination?

The old order is dying -- literally. Young people are rejecting faith based hate and religion based on hate.

Using religion as an enforcement mechanism for what the older generation thinks should be culturally dominant isn't going to work any more.

The only plausible reason why people who call themselves "christian" would embrace someone like Donald Trump is out of fear -- or hate.

"It’s not just that conservative white Christians have lost this argument with a broader liberal culture,” he noted. “It’s that they’ve lost it with their own kids and grandchildren.”

Statistics seem to bear this out. A slim majority of young white evangelicals now support same-sex marriage, while older generations of white evangelicals overwhelmingly oppose it. That difference doesn’t even take into account the huge numbers of young people who were raised in evangelical denominations and then left their churches, often because they disapprove of religious homophobia."

http://www.salon.com/2017/09/11/white-christians-are-now-a-minority-but-theyre-getting-more-isolated-and-less-tolerant/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 08:50AM by anybody.

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Posted by: deja vue ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 08:54AM

Things are being spurred on by their vocal and not so vocal actions and behaviors. I hope the crash comes sooner than later.

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Posted by: ice cold ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 09:35AM

anybody, thank you for your links and comments. I nearly always enjoy them.

Erik and and mods, thank you for a *much* safer place for these discussions. Unmoderated commentating are mud-flinging, non-discussion, "hate the other" free-for-all vent sessions.

My comment on the OP-

Walls are ugly artifices of the currently powerful, and in the long term, carry the opposite of the intended effect, exuding insecurity. When they inevitably fail, they are remembered as hateful things.

The deeper that hard-core evangelicals dig in behind their wall of hate, the more isolated and less powerful they become. Hope springs eternal, so they close their eyes to the weakness inherent to wall-building.

It's an easier view to limit the scope to evangelicals, but these statements can also apply to nations. The US cannot maintain any status of being a "world leader" from behind walls.

We can't have influence both ways. We are either world participants, the only pool from whom to select a "leader," or we are not. Only diversity strengthens bloodlines, strengthens ties.

Walls did not make evangelicals "great," nor by extension, their god; they will not make "America great." Either we stand for the long-honored principles of civil and religious freedom that built our nation, or we go ahead and admit that the only "true" Americans are the Native Americans, who ,btw, are also the children of immigrants.

We, every one of us, are illegitimate citizens of the current government's desired laws. We can only dream, otherwise.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:04AM

My father put me in front of the television. "You need to see this," he said.

What did I see? People cheering and celebrating and using sledge hammers to knock down the Berlin Wall.

This is what my father told me: "This is something I thought I would never see in my lifetime. Right will win. Wrong will lose."

I've always remembered this. Fear and hate always lose in the end.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 13, 2017 01:48AM

She had emigrated from Germany to the US as a young teen, around 1900, and was so thoroughly assimilated that you could never guess, from her speech, that English was not her first language.

But she remained in touch with cousins in Germany, so of course there was an emotional connection.

I remember watching the tearing-down of that loathsome Wall on TV. Grandma had tears spilling down her face, and she kept murmuring, "Gott sei dank." (God be thanked.) She was able to re-connect (by mail, anyway) with other kin that had been unable to stay in touch when the country was split.

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 09:44AM

"It was not the theft of the boat [the sheriff] came about, though that had been reported, nor my truancy, since I was almost old enough to leave school if I chose to. It was not that Sylvie had kept me out on the lake all night, because no one knew just where we had been. It was that we returned to Fingerbone in a freight car. Sylvie was an unredeemed transient, and she was making a transient of me.

Fingerbone was moved to solemn pity. There was not a should there but knew how shallow-rooted the whole town was. It flooded yearly, and had burned down once. Often enough the lumber mill shut down, or burned down. There were reports that things were otherwise elsewhere, and anyone, on a melancholy evening, might feel that Fingerbone was a meager and a difficult place.

So a diaspora threatened always. And there is no living creature, though the whims of eons had put its eyes on boggling stocks and clamped it in a carapace, diminished it to a pinpoint and given it a taste for mud and stuck it down a well or hid it under a stone, but that creature will live on if it can. So certainly Fingerbone, which despite all its difficulties sometimes seemed pleasant and ordinary, would value itself, too, and live on if and as it could. So every wanderer whose presence suggested it might be as well to lift, or it could not matter much, was met with something that seemed at first sight a moral reaction, since morality is a check upon the strongest temptations. And these strangers were fed on the stoop, and sometimes warmed at the store, in a spirit that seemed at first sight pity or charity, since pity and charity may be at root an attempt to propitiate the dark powers that have not touched us yet. When one of these lives ended within the town jurisdiction, the preacher could be relied up to say "this unfortunate," as if an anonymous grave were shoehsw deeper than a grave with a name above it. So the transients wandered through Fingerbone like ghosts, terrifying as ghosts are because they were not very different from us. And so it was important to the town to believe that I should be rescued, and that rescue was possible. If the sheriff felt he should not come knocking at a door behind which no murder had been done, he had seen more than any man should see and was to be pardoned. It was because of his tolerance of transients that they haunted the town as they did, sleeping in abandoned houses and in the ruins of fallen houses, and building their shanties and lean-tos under the bridge and along the shore. They seldom spoke in our hearing or looked at us directly, but we stole glimpses of their faces. They were like the people in old photographs–we did not see them though a veil of knowledge and habit, but simply and plains, as they were lined or scarred, as they were startled or blank. Like the dead, we could consider their histories complete, and we wondered only what had brought them to transiency, to drifting, since their lives as drifters were like pacing and brooding and skirmishing among ghosts who cannot pay their way across the Styx. However long a postscript to however short a life, it was still no part of the story. We imagined that if they spoke to us they would astonish us with tales of disaster and disgrace and bitter sorrow, that would fly into the hills and stay there in the dark earth and in the cries of birds. For in the case of such pure sorrow, who can distinguish mine from thine? The sorrow is that every should is put out of house. Finger bone lived always among the dispossessed. In bad times the town was flooded with them, and when they walked by in the roads at night, the children of Fingerbone pulled their quilts over their heads and muttered the old supplication that if they should die sleeping, God would see to their souls, at least."

-Housekeeping by Marilynne Robinson

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Posted by: Cold-Dodger ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:18AM

White Christianity, which has dominated this country for so long, will not become a minority without a fight. It values itself, and it will live on if and as it can.

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: September 13, 2017 07:34AM

FWIW...as a white person w/judeo-christian values from which this nation came from, though practice no religion, people flying swastikas with the nazi salute are not me/us. For the record, history already tells us what happened to nazi/xenophobic thinking like that......

Many still have the practice of...if you don't agree w/EVERYTHING I believe, then you're completely wrong..

There are no shades of gray.

As someone posted about their german immigrant grandmother who so fully integrated in the US that she had no german accent...that is a big difference from people haveing to have all their govt issued stuff in german, w/german schools, etc...


I think what "white christian america" doesn't like is having to make EXCEPTIONS for everybody else because that goes against everything they and their parents were taught. We made no exceptions for the Irish, Italians, and eastern Europeans who immigrated here in the past...no special groups to complain about how mistreated they were instead of rising above it all ...which is hard, but they made it through it to the other side..


Like I said...no shades of gray.....








discuss..

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:40AM

Oppressed people often become more radical even if the oppression is all in their head and self manufactured. So far, "radical" for Extreme White Christian America, who consider themselves oppressed, is government control which they are losing and cake sale monitoring which is not going very well either. Who knows what tactics the future holds? The cry that their religious freedom is in jeopardy is just pathetic. No laws so far against going to any church you want and worshiping as you please. Give it a rest Dallin.

They don't understand that their great enemy is not religious oppression. Their enemies are kindness and inclusion and those two always win in the end. Kindness and inclusion are deep within us as instruments of survival. Reciprocity is an instinct not a learned behavior as far as I have observed. Reciprocity is what got us this far and it is stronger than religion.

The extreme religious right will need a better champion than they have now if they have any future at all in the control business.

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Posted by: an exmo ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:58AM

I occasionally attend various Christian churches for social reasons. They are mostly composed of people with White skin but plenty of variations of Asians, Hispanics, and Blacks. I suspect that most are right-wingers though politics never comes up. That is good because I'm about as left-wing as they come on Gay Rights and Abortion. The American Left tends to be quite extreme and out of touch with what's really going on. All of us, especially those of us who are truly progressive thinking, will be better off if the extremists start being open-minded.

Now about Whites .... consider that there are plenty of national origin factions that are all very much Minority groups which have had mixed results on getting along. The Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, Jews, Russians, Irish, Italians, English, Scots, etc. have had their own issues between themselves. It's so narrow-minded and absurd for people to think that discrimination/prejudice are just Color-oriented.

There are people who are racist. But thankfully they are a very small minority.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 11:20AM

That "very small minority" amounts to around 35% or so of the population, and they are very vocal and often--courtesy of the Reagan-era tax cuts--very wealthy.

I don't doubt there are many you've identified who go to "liberal churches," but I see Billy Grahamcracker is still around spouting his subtle bile (don't get me started on his son, Franklin).

I'm not optimistic that this garbage will ever "die out," and if you doubt me, come spend some time back on Planet Utah...

I posted this one a few weeks ago:

sub: Education in Utah? Well, Here's One from the Other Night...

Background: Way back in the last century I worked in the grocery business, part of my "12-year plan" to finish college. That chain is no longer here, but I do "find it relaxing" to walk down the aisles, particularly at stores that are open 24 hours. Helps with the road rage...

So anyway, it was late, and I went to one store nearby, picked up a few items, and on my way in I observed the checker open a checkstand for a lady rather than force her to use the self-serve.

When I was done, I asked for the same service, and he rang my items up in one of the self-serves instead. I made a remark that I thought it was stupid for this chain--they're part of a co-op that includes four other name stores--to "copy Wal-Mart" with these monstrosities.

He looked at me in all seriousness and said, "Blame it on Obama for raising all the wages."

Good company guy, I guess, for a part-timer on minimum wage...

So I looked at him and said, "Kid, Obama was the best president of our lifetime, bar none."

And I recited a little dittle I wrote a few years ago that, as most humor does, quickly became dated...

"We raise up a glass to Barack H. Obama,

"The hole in the ocean was plugged; likewise Osama."

And honest-to-Macaroni (Mormon patron saint of large families), the yayhoo said to me the Bush Administration took Bin Laden out and were keeping him on ice until the election, but CNN got word and threatened them with exposure...

Obama later took the credit, according to my genius...

I'll bet the price of a cab ride to Heber City he was LDS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 11:21AM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 11:43AM

White "christians" who use religion to sponsor hate probably don't think of it that way. They don't want their world to change and use religion as tool to influence culture and politics.

Look at it this way.

Suppose you meet a nice ninety year old Southern lady and she starts using word like "colored" and "nigra" and she claims that she doesn't understand why saying things like that would make people uncomfortable.

In the world she grew up in before the Depression people talked like that. But she'd also know that after the 1960s things had changed and you didn't say things that anymore.

So why does she still do it?


Why are they fighting over "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays" or freaking out over a local mosque or going crazy every time they see a woman in hijab or salwar kameez or a sari?

Or people engaged in casual conversation with each other in Spanish?

Why do they want the psychological barrier of a Great Wall?

Why put copies of the Ten Commandments in schools and public buildings?


After the second world war all of the various European ethnic groups became "white." Using this new criteria non-whites were ten percent of the population and everyone else were "minorities."

This is no longer the case and for some people who base their existence and identity on American white cultural heteronormitive dominance -- consciously or unconsciously -- their world is shrinking and they're afraid.

And when people are scared they do bad and stupid things.

All they have to is just reject hate.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 11:56AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 11:38AM

Religious people are believers. Give them a good story, and they'll believe it. Trump was their good story. It's almost like Walt Disney runs politics. First Mickey Mouse and Goofy, now Donald Duck.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 12:13PM

Whats with the looking to one man to save them idea? Oh nevermind i get it.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 12:32PM

I don't understand this reasoning about "walls".
There is a vast difference between the Berlin Wall and protecting our U.S. borders against illegal immigrants.

Do we want our country to turn into what we see when we travel outside the U.S.?

Nothing against LEGAL immigration.
But the U.S. has a right to determine who enters the country.

The U.S. also has a right to expect immigrants to obey our laws - nothing racist about that.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 12:44PM

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand this reasoning about "walls".
> There is a vast difference between the Berlin
> Wall and protecting our U.S. borders against
> illegal immigrants.

Not nearly as much difference as you'd like there to be.

> Do we want our country to turn into what we see
> when we travel outside the U.S.?

Ooh, I do, I do (raises hand)! In some ways, anyway.
But I guess it depends on where you travel. And what you both look for and see while you're there.

> Nothing against LEGAL immigration.
> But the U.S. has a right to determine who enters
> the country.

Yes, it does. And what would be so horrible about determining that people from neighboring countries can enter and work legally? Instead of putting up an ineffective, expensive, ridiculous wall?

> The U.S. also has a right to expect immigrants to
> obey our laws - nothing racist about that.

The US already does. People suspected of committing crimes get arrested and tried. Whether they're here legally or not. Are you implying that's NOT the case?

My g-g-g-grandfather and his family came to the US without any visas or paperwork. They just showed up. Didn't go through any "vetting." That first bunch never did any paperwork of any kind to become officially legal US citizens. Their children, being born here, *were* de-facto citizens. But I guess that was OK, because they were Europeans...? I'm the product of "illegal, non-citizen immigrants." Maybe that makes me a bit more empathetic with regard to those desperate to come here and have a better life.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 12:46PM

you might think differently.

Ask yourself: Why is it so hard to immigrate America LEGALLY -- especially if you are from South of the Border

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 01:01PM

What is so hard to understand about it?

America is FULL and we have to limit immigration to people who contribute to our country in one way or another.

By the way, Spanish people are considered Caucasians .
It's not racism but necessity which drives our govt's actions.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 01:22PM

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/fact-sheets/myths-and-facts-about-immigrants-and-immigration

Diversity makes us stronger, not weaker.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 01:27PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 01:37PM

The USA is one of the EMPTIEST developed countries in the world. You've got loads of empty land, so I find it hard to understand how it could be "full".

Spanish people are called "Caucasian"? That's just ridiculous, it's a word with 2 meanings, one geographical but of limited application: a person from the Caucasus, and the other a leftover from spurious early and mid 20th century racial profiling... by racists.

Although France has as many racists as every other country, I like the French approach to this: it is illegal to collect or publish details of someone's "race". The thing about racists is not to give them a reason to speak ;-)

Tom in Paris

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 02:04PM

Well, we will see what happens in the EU countries.
Here's a hint: this will not end well.


Much of the news about problems with the migrants is being suppressed by orders of Merkel et al.

You only hear about it when you talk to people in the streets or if you have friends in the police forces there.

By the way, the true numbers of new arrivals are deliberately kept out of the papers.
But all you have to do is see what is happening in the streets of European countries.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 02:33PM

There's no plot or conspiracy here.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eurabia

<sigh>

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 03:16PM

Elyse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Much of the news about problems with the migrants
> is being suppressed by orders of Merkel et al.

Bullshit (again, as I said in the other thread).

> You only hear about it when you talk to people
> in the streets or if you have friends in the
> police forces there.

Two "people on the streets" from Europe already posted, and pointed out your claims are completely unfounded.

> By the way, the true numbers of new arrivals are
> deliberately kept out of the papers.
> But all you have to do is see what is happening in
> the streets of European countries.

Bullshit. Again.
I don't suppose you have any evidence for that claim?
Of course not.

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Posted by: csuprovograd ( )
Date: September 13, 2017 02:03PM

Never mind what you see, hear or wish to believe, and from what ever source you gather information to formulate what 'side' you are on, the final do-all, be-all and end all is the hoarding of riches. Those in possession of the wealth control humanity.

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