So I have been reading 'Recovering Agency' (thanks to those who recommended it!).. and am on the 'love bombing' section. I guess the term was coined by the Moonies or because of them. But basically it's a cult tactic to get and keep new recruits.

Interestingly my TBM mom used to love to say 'kill them with kindness' and it's something I remember as being a phrase that started a crack in my shell.. didn't make a lot of sense to me and I wasn't sure it was a good tactic.

Anyway I was thinking back to all the 'love bombing' I endured growing up in TSCC. Going to church I was fair game for excessive and often painful cheek pinching, bear hugs, crippling hand shakes, people invading my personal space at every turn, overly enthusiastic greetings, etc. It was very uncomfortable for me. But it seemed that everyone was also so 'friendly and loving', you were not allowed to complain. After all they were all our 'brothers and sisters', our wonderful loving extended church family.

I remember very loud people, loud women with big plastered on smiles practically yelling in our faces with their over friendly and flattering greetings. My mom is one such person and it's still unbearable to be around her. So much dripping small talk, but never any substance to the conversations, never any real inquiries as to how I was really doing. Never any genuine interest in my well being. All was superficial.

It wasn't until I was a young adult and inactive member, dating a non-member that I had my first honest outsiders view of this kind of messed up behavior. My bf had said how uncomfortable he was with my parents. They were friendly but never really asked him anything about himself, he felt like they didn't actually care and like he was practically invisible around them. Contrasted with my experience with his parents who did take a genuine interest in me, I could see what he meant. But it's something I never had heard vocalized.

Well in the 20 years since leaving the cult, I've struggled with understanding what healthy boundaries are and have been easy prey of love bombing I've encountered elsewhere. It's something so familiar to me still that I almost immediately get hooked when someone gives me a lot of excessive shallow flattering attention. And those people always end up being abusive in some way and manipulators.

Only in the past couple of years have I been able to start feeling some kind of suspicion when people are overly friendly with me. I have been learning to keep a guard up in the face of that kind of attention from strangers. But it's difficult still, I find that generally my guard is down in the face of love bombing and I am an easy target because of my upbringing where that was so normal.

Time and again I've gotten into trouble because of this susceptibly to flattery. Gotten mixed up with the wrong kind of boyfriends and friends, people who used me, who didn't actually love me, but took advantage of my naivety. I think also having a low sense of self worth due to the years in the cult has also made me an easy victim.

I grew up learning to think that it was normal to immediately connect with a stranger and view them as brothers or sisters. To immediately open myself to them in trust. To trust people just because they are smiling and friendly and give me compliments. I've thought that making friends or finding a mate should be an instant love at first sight, friends at first sight type of connection.

Sometimes it's been true that those I got close to and stayed close to I felt a connection with immediately. But it wasn't overwhelming and took time to develop. And others I didn't necessarily notice at first I was able to get to know and make lasting bonds with. But the ones who were super extra friendly at first have never turned out to be lasting true friends. Because it was false attention, a pretense.

This is something members of the cult do compulsively, it's something they have been trained to do (esp. in the case of missionary training) and it's something that is constantly reinforced socially for them. It's the hook that gets people in the cult and what makes them stay. These false friendships and connections. As many of us know, as soon as you 'sin' or question anything, they will turn on you in an instant.

Just last year coming to a new community I fell prey to the overly friendly flatterers and really got hurt as a result. In some cases I could see through it more quickly than I was used to. But it's clear I am still learning. And I think for me it's been one of the more lasting, more damaging aspects of cult behavior.

Wondering about others experiences with and thoughts on this.

Thanks!

I'm having a problem with a guy now who grew up LDS and knows how to turn on the charm. The more friendly people are, especially Mormon narcissists, the more likely they are to have a long knife ready to stab you in the back. Because God.

Now if you really want to know why, it's because when you're a kid other kids stick knives in your back. It's your job to pull them out and heal. Some kids decide they want to knife the world instead. JS for example.

Spot on!

I converted at the age of 22. Having gone through so much and not having "all that healthy" of a relationship with my family, getting "love-bombed" touched me, and gave me confidence. A family that I had rode to church with even invited me over to dinner. Their younger daughter became what you could call "an assigned friend." The older daughter (who is my age) wasn't "assigned" to me since she was getting married in a few months.

My assigned friend would take me to church at times, and take me to church events. When she began dating, she still took me to events (which I appreciated, don't get me wrong), but her boyfriend came along and I became the third wheel. They were off in their own world, and I was staring out of the window, spacing out since I couldn't jump in their conversations.

Everything ended after she got married. In hindsight, even though she took me to church and church events, we never really did hang out as friends...go out for an ice cream, or shopping, or anything that met our common interests.


When I moved to another town at 25 (therefore another stake and another ward in Columbia, MD), I was love-bombed again. I liked it. I was in the frame of mind that they liked having me in their ward...in hindsight, they did not know me.
About a year later, I would fall ill with a brain hemorrhage and would receive cards and flowers. It led me to believe that I was loved.
I would return back to the ward in Columbia, and would get love-bombed again as a means of a welcome back. But with my brain being injured (brain hemorrhage, radiation brain surgery, and a seizure), I would struggle mentally and emotionally. These same people that had "love-bombed" me and sent cards began backing away from me. I would try to smile and say hi to them, but they would just turn their heads and act like they didn't know me. Even when I improved mentally and emotionally, they still couldn't stand the sight of me. The same people who get up on the pulpit and preach "Charity; love everyone. Be compassionate. Be sure to be kinder. Make people feel better about themselves." All bullshit in my eyes now.

Some of the members would get frustrated with my disability. I remember taking a family history course, and the instructor had asked me to read. I had trouble seeing some words since I am partially blind in my left eye, and the instructor became frustrated. He also got frustrated with me again when I misunderstood him when he had asked me a qestion. I wish I would have spoken up, but I just "kept sweet."

And of course, there was not much substance in the conversations I'd have with church members. Just random questions...nothing where they really know who I am.

Now, at 35, I feel so socially inept. I want friendships, but I'm afraid of them because I've wasted twelve years in a Morg where the "friendships" were superficial, and only based on my being a faithful church member. '
At my job, I don't really know anyone, due to my being inept, and I feel that it is such a hindrance there. I'm not sure on how to fix it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2017 03:17PM by severedpuppetstrings.

Thank you so much for your share 'severedpuppetstrings' !

That is truly awful what you had to go through. I am so sorry. And I really appreciate you sharing.

Awful that you had to go through the brain hemorrhage and surgery but extra awful how you were treated afterward. The behavior you describe sounds SO familiar. I know that in my family and at church growing up people would behave in that exact same way, acting like they care oh so much and do all the superficial things to show it but then treat you differently and distance themselves when you present to them a real life hardship that they actually don't have answers for and don't know how to deal with, esp. since all they understand of relationships is superficiality. So they can never offer real support for real problems. And until you have a real problem you may do fine in the group and not see that the 'love' isn't real. You find out who your real friends are when you are at your worst. This is true in and out of the cult of course. But in the cult it seems like most everyone ends up a fair weather friend.

And sometimes it takes a devastation to find out the hard truth, that you've been lied to. That you trusted the wrong people. And that betrayal is really hurtful. Add to that the understanding of the wasted years in such a group and it's quite a blow.

And I totally understand the feeling of social ineptitude. Like Breeze said, I also learned to be friendly and approachable, but didn't know how to protect myself or trust my instincts. It's still something I am learning. But I do feel I am making progress. The thing is to go slow and be gentle on yourself. When I get duped in social situations the first thing I want to do is beat myself up over it, but then I don't see that it took me less time to figure things out than the other times and so I am actually making progress. We can't expect ourselves to get it perfect right away, even after we intellectually process what is going on. It takes time and baby steps.

I am ten years older than you and only started to understand al of this a few years ago. So you are actually ahead of the game in my mind anyway. And you are still really young even though I know it may not feel like that. Take it from your 'seniors' you are young and you are making great progress! :)

Thanks, Shapeshifter! And you're still young as well! :-)

I remember talking to a guy I met at a poetry open mic, who is sixty and we both were talking about how we were still trying to figure things out, and then agreed that no matter how old we are, and how much we experience, we never will stop learning or figuring things out. As well as discovering ourselves.
So maybe we shouldn't feel too bad. We all have our own experiences that make and shape us. It can make us more compassionate as well, as from what I've seen from your response to my post! :-)

We're just human; works in progress. Some know this, and others may not realize this (i.e. those people who try to fix me, or tell me that I really need to work on myself. Which I know I do. But those judgements, though). Which was one of the issues I had with TSCC. There were talks about being perfect "like Jesus was." And I would wear myself out trying to be that perfect person. But about a year before I discovered the truth about the church and left, I'm thinking, "What's the point in being perfect? Once you've gotten there, and learned everything, what else is there? Where do you go from there?"
This can also go along with the "perfection is an eternal process" quote I heard at the General Relief Society Conference years ago. If it's going to take "forever" to be perfect, then what's the point?
I just figured, I'm flawed, I'll always be flawed. But I can accept them, make them beautiful...for me. And I can learn from my mistakes, and be the best I can be. Not perfect, but the best that I can be at the moment. We'll always learn and grow, up until our dying day.

Thank you, Shapeshifter, for this post! I can relate to everything you said!

This is what I experienced, also, growing up as a BIC cult victim. I was labeled as being naive and gullible. I, also, had very low self-esteem, because I was not perfect. Moreover, my bully big brother was allowed to beat me, whenever he felt like it. He was mentally ill, and I was rewarded if I put up with his abuse and torture, and punished if I struck back or whined.

I learned how to be friendly and open and honest and approachable, and those other social skills, in order to please the arrogant Mormon boys. My parents and Young Women leaders taught me to judge myself according to what kind of wife I would be--like I was a commodity to sell to some temple-worthy Mormon man, someday. Fortunately, my social skills opened me up to a wide variety of very fine individuals, in my non-Mormon, California community. I fell in love with two atheists (not at the same time), and enjoyed a deep, long-lasting friendship with each one, which, over the years, grew into real love. My parents insisted that I marry a temple Mormon, and sent me to BYU, where I was barraged with the kind of superficial love-bombing that you describe. The men thought I was from a wealthy family, though my father made a break with the wealth, to go his own way. All the men saw was someone healthy, well-dressed, good-natured, humble, and a meal-ticket to pay for their education. BYU was full of jerks. I met a good-looking all-State linebacker at Berkeley, who was a Mormon returned missionary. They had called him "The Smiling Elder", on his mission, and he was from a GA family. Within 5 months after meeting this smooth talker, we were married in the temple, I was working to put him through school, and he was making me do his school work for him, and beating me, almost every day. That smile had hidden a lifetime of violent assaults--some of them on his sister, who I did not meet until AFTER we were married. He put me in the hospital, and strangled me until I stopped breathing, more than once. He would apologize, and cry, and pray, and I would try again. I went to the university library, and read everything I could find about wife-beaters and psychopaths, and learned that their aggression has nothing to do with the victim, at all. Even with intense therapy, these thugs never change. I decided I wanted to live, so I got a divorce.

I was taught that EVERY Mormon was a brother or sister to be trusted!

I am in therapy now, recovering from PTSD, and learning how to not be a victim, anymore.

Shapeshifter wrote: "It's something so familiar to me still that I almost immediately get hooked when someone gives me a lot of excessive shallow flattering attention. And those people always end up being abusive in some way and manipulators."

This type of behavior is a red flag. All I can advise people to do is GET MORE INFORMATION. I should have met my abusive ex's family, before getting married to him! My parents barely knew him, and were fooled my his act--they were just eager to have me marry a Temple Mormon, and not an atheist. Maybe my parents didn't know me on that deeper level, either.

One thing that is reassuring: You can trust your first gut-reaction! At BYU, I suffered a mugging and an attempted rape. I met other BYU Mormons, who later abuse some of my roommates and dorm mates. Every time, my first impression of these perps was bad. Think about your own experiences. How did you feel about these awful people BEFORE they had a chance to cajole and flatter and brag? The first time I saw my abusive ex was in the Berkeley bookstore. He was talking to my good friend, and my first impulse was to go over there and rescue her! The first time I met my dorm mates' bully boyfriends, they disgusted me.

Like with the Mormon cult, the process of brainwashing and manipulating takes some time. This is why the cult grabs children from infancy, with the "BIC" hype, and baptizes them when they are only 8. Primary works hard to brainwash children, before they become too wise. Un-brainwashed children have an innate wisdom to know who REALLY LOVES them and who does not. They can sense good from evil. So could you and I, as children. Then, the cult intruded into our lives, and told us evil was good and good was evil, and that we should trust all Mormons, and especially those with "authority" over us. I trusted my parents to choose a husband for me. I trusted my parents to protect me from my brother. They failed.

Sorry to ramble. My point is that you are correct to look closely, and see through the act. The more you do this, the more quickly you can make these self-preservative judgements. Your gut will tell you, BEFORE they have a chance to seduce you with their lies!

My learning how to do this has not made me more paranoid or afraid. Quite the contrary! I can now see the good in others, and I enjoy genuine, deep relationships with my family and friends. Also, I enjoy shallow acquaintances, such as tennis and bicycling buddies, neighbors, co-workers, volunteers. Some of those have led to friendships, but most have not. It's OK to not let everyone into your soul. We do need boundaries!

Thank you Breeze! I always love your posts, you are such an inspiration to me, you have no idea!

And yes you are right, my first instincts were correct with these people. Interestingly in one case (from last year) I did see the red flags and was initially cautious, but I can see now that the 'friendliness' factor (love bombing) was something that enabled me to dismiss some of my initial cautiousness. In that case it was a woman with whom I shared other things in common and being in a small community, and new, and not having friends, well I was lonely and willing to over look those things in order to have some kind of a friend.

Well some months later after other red flags and discomfort in her home (Which I kept ignoring and excusing), something really awful had to happen for me to make a break from her and her family.

Looking back I can see this pattern in previous friendships over the years. I have become more cautious about flattery from men after a lot of really crappy relationships with them. And I am much less attracted to that kind of attention coming from men. Besides I am in a stable good intimate partner relationship now so I don't need that attention from men. But since I do need female friendships I am more vulnerable to flattery from women right now.

What I have to relearn from my past, what I learned about men, is that I can't NEED the relationship. If I feel a really lonely aching need like that than I am automatically more vulnerable to false attentions. So I have to do other things, self nurture, things that will make me feel good about myself without needing it to come from the outside, so that I can naturally find friends when I don't feel the need so strongly. And then I'll have more to offer back if not coming from that place of neediness.

When we feel desperate, we act desperate, send out those vibes and attract the predators. That's why it's so helpful to share experiences here and to read all I can to help me understand these tactics that manipulators use so I can be more aware and more self protective.

We certainly did NOT grow up learning how to protect ourselves. Instead it was viewed as something negative when we tried to establish healthy boundaries. When we weren't immediately fully open and friendly with people we are just meeting or whom we don't know well.

I've really had to drill it into my brain that I have a right to be distant and self protective. I have a right to not like everyone I meet. I have a right to 'be a bitch' when I need to. I don't have to be friendly all of the time to everyone. It doesn't mean I have to constantly be a bitch either, but I can do what I need to in order to take care of myself. sometimes, to some people that may come across as being cold or a 'bitch' (and we women are so afraid of that label aren't we?!), even if we aren't really being that way.. those who are manipulative and who want to control us may take it that way and let us know that. But then they aren't people we want to be close with anyway right?

Quality of friendships not quantity is what is important. And we don't have to be liked by everyone. It doesn't mean we are not worth something because of that, which is often how we may first feel because of the indoctrination you mentioned, being trained as a commodity, good wife material.

I know I may have told you before, but I am sorry about what you went through and it makes my blood boil to hear about how you were treated by your brother (and how your parents did nothing about that) and your asshole husband.

But so glad you got out, freed yourself and are moving on, learning, getting help and getting stronger. Good for you!!!

Shapeshifter, when I think about the female friends that I've had over the years, flattery has not been a part of the equation. Sure, there might be a quick, "You look great!" or, "Your hair looks really nice" or "I like your outfit" when you first see each other on a visit. But generally from then on out you are catching up with what is going on in your lives, sharing feelings and opinions about things, doing activities together, etc.

I would be suspicious if the flattery went much beyond that. Often when a person flatters you too much they want something from you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2017 04:54PM by summer.

Summer you are right, that's a more heathy normal interaction and how it is for me with my real girlfriends.. and I guess I didn't mean just flattery as much as over friendliness .. more friendly attention than is normal, esp. when first getting to know someone.

When I moved towns going into high school, it was understandably lonely for me at first in my new school. A super-friendly girl reached out to me. It didn't take me long to discover that she was a cult member -- in this case, the "Children of God." I later learned that she always latched onto all the new people. Soon enough, some perfectly nice, normal girls invited me to sit with them at lunch. Gradually, as I got involved with various activities, I met the girls who would become my closest friends.

Gavin De Beker's The Gift of Fear supports everything you say Breeze. It's worth a read if Breeze's excellent observations ring true to you.

Gift of fear--very good, and I like his Protecting the Gift even better.

This is such an awesome thread!

I recall even in sacrament when an elder spoke, 'I love all
of you. I don't know you but I love all of you so much.'

Irrational, cultish, bizarre.

I was told that I finally came to home and where I belonged. That my true family was the church. That I had chosen in the pre existence to find the church. That my family of origin was wrong to not raise me LDS.

I've had that kind of thing happen at retreats too.. like yoga and dance retreats .. sometimes there is group sharing and different people get up and speak about their experiences but it ends up feeling like testimony meeting to me and I am never comfortable with it. And people say those same kinds of things.. like 'I don't know you all personally but I just love you all so much anyway.'
And they get all emotional and start crying and so does most the rest of the group.

What really annoys me further is that I tend to be one of those crying because I am the kind of person who can't help cry when I see someone else doing it even though while it's happening I know I am being emotionally manipulated and it really really bothers me. (Sometimes happens watching stupid commercials, esp. when I am PMS'ing.. LOL)

But at least now I usually KNOW it's manipulation and something is up and I don't accept it as 'truth' or evidence of God's love or his only true gospel, etc.

carameldreams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is such an awesome thread!
>
> I recall even in sacrament when an elder spoke, 'I
> love all
> of you. I don't know you but I love all of you so
> much.'
>
> Irrational, cultish, bizarre.
>
> I was told that I finally came to home and where I
> belonged. That my true family was the church.
> That I had chosen in the pre existence to find the
> church. That my family of origin was wrong to not
> raise me LDS.

Wonderful thread indeed. I'm learning quite a bit with reading these posts.

But I wanted to concur with your post, carameldreams, I always found it strange when someone would go upon the pulpit and say, "I love all of you. Even though I do not know you, I love you." I remember a young man on his way to serve a mission (or maybe just returned from one) say that.
Did we happen to attend the same ward, by chance? lol

And there was another moment during the General Relief Society Conference which I believe was in 2010. It was definitely before it had become the semi-annual women's conference.
Anyway, I remember watching it at the stake center along with three others ladies that I had rode with. At the end of it, some lady (sister missionary maybe, I don't remember) that had passed us said hello, and one of my companions said hello and then quickly followed with, "I love you" and proceeds to give her a peck on the cheek. I was a little weirded out by that, because my companion did not know this woman from a can of beans, so how could she know if she loved her or not?

I have observed that con-people of any stripe use "love-bombing"---even smiles and "common courtesy" to charm their victims---and it frequently works.

My response to that is, if we are so susceptible to courtesy and gallantry, maybe it would behoove us to include more of it commonly, when we aren't trying to manipulate someone. Just as a matter of normal interaction.

Meanwhile, a couple of examples I encountered: 1. an old geezer I knew who talked about "flirt to convert." ugh.
2. Another old guy who love-bombed me: first had a long, probing conversation with me, trying to convince me that I should become a mormon. Particularly aggravating was the sheets of tears on his face as he regretted my refusal: I must have been especially valiant, as I was so "fair"--translate, blonde, blue eyes, sunburn easily----double ugh. Then he kept sending home messages with my TDM that he loved me, and the little gifts he made for all the mothers on mothers' day---I used to think, "How can he love me? He doesn't even know me."

Then I found this board and heard about love-bombing. Oh. cuss cuss.

"I must have been especially valiant, as I was so "fair"--translate, blonde, blue eyes,"

OMG! PUKE!!! Double and Triple PUKE! What the hell??!

And Mormons still like to think and pretend that they are not racist!

Well that's never been said to me, I am brunette and I get many dark deep shades of brown in the sun. So I guess I wasn't as valiant! Lord or Lord! LOL

And the tears.. UGH!!!!!! ARGGHHH!!! Sickening!

I'm very uncomfortable ,myself ,with people who are too friendly and talkative, especially when I don't know them at all or if they're just someone I barely know.
I don't trust them and get suspicious. Yes, I get paranoid, at times, but it has kept me out of trouble and I've never been stuck off guard by a fake person who turns out to be a psycho. I've always been like that. I've always been shy and reserved, until I know a person. It's nice to read this post, especially the parts on the love bombing, it proves what I've always felt. Certain parts of the country are overly friendly, like a lot down south. Not talking about the friendly, POLITE people, but the ones who push them selfs on you,( phoney polite ) ,asking rude, personal questions even.
I'll take the stereotyped New England type person anytime.

Right you are. Nothing wrong with being shy and reserved. Interestingly that's how I tend to be naturally too but the cult really messed me up with presenting me with behavior that is not normal or healthy, as normal and good. So even though I've never been comfortable with it, I've been victim to it more than enough.

And if anything I was criticized for being guarded. So I would try to be less so which of course got me in trouble.

Now I am reteaching myself, that it's okay to be reserved and guarded.

I was also raised near New England and grew up in a very different culture (outside the cult that is) than out here in the West. And I remember when first leaving the East coast and coming to school in Utah that I was really a bit put off with the open extra friendly way people had, didn't know what to do with it. If anything it made me feel inadequate because I couldn't be liked that myself and since it was all happening at 'the lord's university' I also felt like I was somehow not good enough.. well those feelings didn't really last too long since it was soon after that I left the cult and I had decided that those flowery dress wearing fake smile women were nothing better than Stepford wives. :)

Anyway.. I always noticed the difference between say when I was living in NYC and then would go to California or Washington and people (strangers) would just be SO friendly.. but the longer I stayed (I remember this in particular in Seattle) the more uncomfortable I was with it because I couldn't tell where I stood with anyone, since people always were friendly (esp. in customer service positions) I didn't know if it was real or fake. Whereas in NYC people would be openly rude to you or just very very guarded and it would take time to know someone before they would smile at you. so at least there I knew where I stood and I didn't have to guess.

Excellent insights, shapeshifter, and everyone else!

relievedtolearn wrote:

>>>"My response to that is, if we are so susceptible to courtesy and gallantry, maybe it would behoove us to include more of it commonly, when we aren't trying to manipulate someone. Just as a matter of normal interaction."


This is my natural, authentic self, but I can tell it puts some people off, as if I am looking for an "in." I react to that by respecting his or her fear, the boundary. Maybe that's the difference. Love bombers seem unaware of other's boundaries, and just go on and on. They "push through" any of the target's resistancr.

Of course naturally I would appreciate others finding me helpful, gorgeous, brilliant, blah, blah, blah, but maybe a quick test of "boundary respect" could help to weed out the phonies.

Shift gaze, make a minor statement of a known opposed position, don't smile or respond positively, etc.

I don't know for sure, ;) but those seem to be ways people communicate disinterest.

oops - *resistance

Good points here, thanks!

Without a doubt, when you do something for someone they feel consciously or subconsciously that the receiver owes the giver as a consequence. The giver also feel that they are now owed. This is a subset of the reciprocal nature of mankind that allows humans to interact and benefit as a group. One hand washes the other is the unwritten code of the universe. So a pan of brownies on a doorstep is seen as a down payment as is a missionary mowing your lawn.

For this reason, I hate when people do things for me. I hate the feeling of owing someone. Of course the person will say they "want nothing in return," are "only doing it as a friendly gesture," but is that true all the way to the core?

I do things for people. I actually don't want a thing in return because one of the things I like to do for others most is for them to not feel obligated to me in any way. It gets complicated. But I strongly believe most people do feel they are then owed--subconsciously.

I have watched a competitor whose work is substandard still do very well because of constant schmoozing, taking clients to lunch often, dropping by with treats, whatever. It works. Love bombing isn't just for religion. The guy's clients give him work even when the last job wasn't that successful.

I like people who have not rejected the notion of reciprocity but have taken it to a higher level and melded it with altruism. That would NOT be the Mormons.

The best repayment is a very sincere thank you as most people feel very rewarded when appreciated.

Exactly Done & Done!

I personally am one of those people who feels extra obligated to someone when they pay me any kind of attention, kindness, compliment, etc. And I don't know if that's because of the cult indoctrination and being made to feel I always owe everyone, or if it's just part of my nature.

But it's true. And so I tend to be very independent because I don't want to owe anyone anything. but this is often a problem because I am not good at asking others for help and people tend to view me as someone who doesn't ever need anything, as someone stronger than I actually am. So because of that fear I can really close myself off too much and take on too much on my own.

But this is why love-bombing is a cult tactic (also used by advertisers, salesmen, etc) because most people tend to feel they must reciprocate, not just in kind, but give back MORE than what they were given. So in TSCC this works to not just recruit new members but keep them in as they constantly feel more and more indebted to the group because of their supposed kindness and help. Also we are then taught that we owe god because god blessed us so much, we have to keep his commandments to return the favors he's given us and then when he blesses us again we keep owing him and it never ends.

because everything is perceived as a blessing from god. If you are alive you are blessed. IF it rains when we need rain it's from god, and if we have food to eat, a house to live in, clothe to wear.. it's not to do with our own hard labor and efforts, it's because god 'blessed' us.. so we need to show are gratitude forever.. we owe god for eternity ! (And in the cult god= the prophet and other leaders and the church itself).

Yes. And, yes.

I think that is why the second I realized the church was a fraud that I suddenly felt joyously, deliriously light. I felt like I was floating. And what you have just said is the reason why. The burden was gone. The DEBT was gone. Not repaid, not returned in kind, but just gone. I owed no one anything. I have always described that moment as feeling like a thousand million pounds were suddenly lifted off my shoulders. I just thought of it as the heaviness of an impossible system that I was an ill fit for. But, like you said, I suddenly did not owe God and his posse for eternity anymore! Thanks for that thought.

YES to liberation! Awesome description of your feelings when you realized you were free. Thanks for sharing. Such a great reminder, we ARE free and do NOT 'owe' God or anyone else anything!

When I remind myself of that is DOES feel good. I think, I deserve life and liberty because I AM alive, because I WAS born. Just because I was born to my particular parents also does not mean I OWE them anything. They wanted kids, they got kids. They wanted to raise them in a cult, they did that, and some!

I also don't expect any debt from them over the brainwashing repercussions. I am taking responsibly for myself now. They did what they did because they believed it was right. They are still trapped in that system and I feel sorry for them now more than the anger and resentment I used to feel.

Because I see how my family are trapped and how they feel that constant guilt and burden of indebtedness. My siblings all deal with that. One has very severe depression (I am convinced as a result of it, but can't say that to him of course), others severe anxiety, low self esteem and insecurity.

If only they could see they could be free. But I have to focus on my own needs now. They know who they can talk to if they are ever ready to question things.

And I always think if there is a god and if it's a type of heavenly father figure, who is supposed to unconditionally love us as his children, then well he won't expect that we owe him anything, he would just love us and accept us and wish to see us again like any actual unconditionally loving parent would.

I don't have kids, but have tons of nieces and nephews and I don't feel I have any conditions on my love for them. They don't owe me anything for the care I've given them over the years. I already got something out of that interaction. I have had many pets and I never think they owe me anything for my love and care!

What a warped concept that really is when you think about it!

Some real, deep insights in this thread.
I can relate to many of them.

I just wanted to add...

When I first left, and for a few years, anytime someone said something "flattering" to me at all -- even if it was honest and sincere and not an attempt to con me -- I didn't believe them.

Because, having had similar experiences to all the above, I figured everybody was BS'ing like mormons do.

It took a few years before I could accept and appreciate actual compliments and appreciation from others. Because while there are certainly cons who use flattery, there are also sincere people who really like you :)

That is an excellent point Hie! I totally relate to that as well. I remember for a very long time it was so difficult to take any kind of compliment seriously even when they were likely to be sincere.

And I also had to learn it was okay just to say 'thank you' and not have to do the 'humble' submissive reaction I'd been trained for where it was only proper to protest and say 'oh no I'm not that' and then maybe give the other person a compliment instead or say so and so is better than I am at whatever it is the compliment was about.. (because we all know what a terrible terrible 'sin'PRIDE is, so you can't possibly take credit for anything or feel good about your own achievements!!)

It was just a few years back I started practicing saying a simple thank you as a response and leaving it at that.

And you are right there are people who are sincere and like us and for those of use screwed up in the head by the cult it takes us some practice learning how to differentiate from the con false flattery and the real stuff. :)

I've had too many toxic friendships and currently a marriage for that reason. My TBM thinking was who am I to judge? Everyone is a sinner. If I get married in the temple, it will all work out. I need to be a shining example as a member of the church.

I've learned I'm fine not interacting with people all.the.damn.time. I don't need 3 hours of church, relief society, visiting teaching, ward activities,... It is exhausting!

Going out to eat once a month with some friends is enough.

I can totally identify with what you are describing here. Thanks for taking the time to write it out like that.

I have an aversion to love bombing tactics stemming from my mormon experiences and years of fending off mormons who phoned, came to my door and mailed me offensive materials.

I especially hated it when total strangers from a church I had never entered claimed they "missed" me or "loved" me. What obvious liars.