I know the church is not what it claims to be. I know that JS definitely couldn't be a prophet. No doing and being what he was.
But I am considering play the game for my son who is soon to get married in the temple. I don't have problems with any member, in fact I am still friend with some. My son and his brother are both active members and are happy. I came to the conclusion that no one will ever question the church until it becomes inconvenient for any reason and I don't see that happening any time soon to them.
So, my question is, has any one here thought about going to church once in a while and lie your ass to get a recommend so you can attend a wedding. I know is not really that honest but, come'on who can you hurt? - In other words, I am considering to become a jack mormon for family sake.
Thoughts?

I see.
So the "example" you want to set for your son is to "lie your ass to get a recommend?"

I feel really bad for you.
And for your son.

Best of luck.

I concur

I have no problem with a person using the church. It is like you have turned the table on them. Use them. Take what you want and just say No to everything else. It is what Jack Mormons do best. You may have to practice in the mirror a bit. No thanks, No, Pass, No, Nope, (awkward pause where they expect you to justify your reason for saying No... but you don't ). One repeating nightmare the Bad Breathern have is a church full of members they can't motivate, can't guilt, can't extract full tithe, can't intimidate. Good luck.

I don't see how giving the appearance that you believe in and endorse TSCC is turning the tables on them. I would think that if everyone that lied the way you propose suddenly stopped, it would shock everyone in TSCC. Your going along reinforces the beliefs in others.

Yes, but if you are stuck pretending you might as well do it your own way.

I don't see where the OP is actually stuck. They are asking if it is OK to lie to get what they want, in this case to go to a wedding.

I, personally, do not trust people that lie to get what they want, you?

Any other time I would say this post is a fake but then considering the subject, it might be real. Why does a guy who wants to lie to his son, ask other anonymous people their opinions? Remember, most people on this forum left the church because they were being honest with themselves. Stupid question from a stupid person.

I went back for a few weeks so I could be a witness at son's wedding. I wasn't too sure about doing it, but wife encouraged my so that someone from our side would be in there. I'm mostly glad that I did it, but I doubt that I would do it again unless I could create a little mischief on the inside just for fun. I'm pretty sure that son would be out now if it weren't for his wife. I understand the pros and cons. I think it depends on your personal situation. I know it meant a lot to them at the time. I am more out now than I was then, as in totally out.

If you want to go, lie. The church is stupid but so is wedding ceremonies. Every.single.one has to be the exact same thing. Still, it's your child. I don't think it's a stupid thing to do.

It's your money.

To get a temple recommend you will have to pay full tithing.

If you are paying tithing, the church doesn't care what you privately believe.

"I came to the conclusion that no one will ever question the church until it becomes inconvenient for any reason . . ."

Have you considered that your honesty and integrity would be an inconvenience for them? Not sheltering them from the truth would be an inconvenience. So why deprive them?

I don't think I would like to be present when someone I loved got sucked in even deeper with that charade of temple type wedding all dressed silly and promising everything to the cult. Carol Burnett as Scarlet wearing the drapes had more dignity.

I understand your quandary. The church has the situation fixed so that you lose either way and can only pick the lesser of two evils. You have to do what feels right to you, I guess. The only person that could get hurt if you go is you as I see it.

I hope you will let us know the outcome and how you felt after. Best to you.

TSCC is thriving on people who are willing to be liars.

Enjoy being a pawn in a fraud.

I really appreciate the comments. Even the ones who are offending me without knowing me. I am sure you don't understand where I am coming from. This world is full of shit, it is not easy. If TSCC is making things easier for them at this time, I will play along to make this even more enjoyable. I don't mind going back for a meeting or two and make them happier for showing up. At the end they know what I am doing and I am not going back forever.
Those who jumped into attacking me are just like the TB who don't like us disbelievers. How are you different than them?

Anon-tday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If TSCC is making things easier for them at this time, I will
> play along to make this even more enjoyable.

Is it 'play'? Cuz it's HARD going for most. That's why TBMs brag that those who leave, can't hack it.

If 'play' is handing over your hard earned cash, spending thousands of hours in callings and church attendance, fine.

I'd rather have true fun aka play.

Anon-tday Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really appreciate the comments. Even the ones
> who are offending me without knowing me. I am sure
> you don't understand where I am coming from. This
> world is full of shit, it is not easy.

Many of us do indeed know where you're coming from, having been there ourselves.
And yes, life isn't easy. I don't think anybody said it was.

> If TSCC is
> making things easier for them at this time, I will
> play along to make this even more enjoyable.

See, it was that premise (that TSCC is making things "easier" for your kids) that I question. I'm not sure it is at all. I'm not sure they'd tell you (or anyone else) if that wasn't the case. You probably already know how deep the indoctrination is among mormons to "put on a happy face" for the world, right?

> Those who jumped into attacking me are just like
> the TB who don't like us disbelievers. How are you
> different than them?

I disagree.
I questioned whether admitting you were going to lie to peoples' faces was a good example to show your kids. Or a good way to live your life.

You are, of course, free to do that if you wish.
I couldn't do it.
Lying and putting on that fake "happy mormon" face was part of being in the church. It disgusted me when I did it, it disgusts me even more now.

Look, we *get* why you're considering doing it.
Pointing out that we don't think it's a very good idea isn't attacking you. You can do what you want. Even if what you want is to be a liar. Good luck with it.

Agreed. I don't think that responding to a post asking for "Thoughts?" is "attacking." OP, do what you think is best. But I'm with ificouldhietokolob and others who suggest that pretending to believe would go against their personal integrity and could damage the esteem in which the TBM family member held them in the long run. Once I figured out the church is a fraud, I decided to stop attending (1) so my young children wouldn't be brainwashed and (2) because attending sends a silent message to other members that I believe the church is true. In short, it felt like I was silently bearing my testimony if I continued to go to church, and I couldn't have that. Yes, everyone's situation is different. So if you disagree with the advice some people gave you -- after you asked for it -- just disregard it, and good luck to you.

The OP was called a stupid person.

This is a tough situation & I don't think that there is one right answer. It just comes down to what you really want. What could you see yourself regretting more in 5 years from now. Playing the Mormon church's game & lying or missing your sons marriage ceremony. I would suggest just sitting with it and thinking about what is best for you in the long run.

Sorry, I don't see anyone attacking you, but I see folks offering you advice that I suppose you don't want to hear. Since you are convinced that the church is not true, then you should set an example for your son. Support him in his decision to be married, but let him know you won't be supporting a church founded by a con man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2017 07:46PM by messygoop.

Years ago, when I was still active in the LDS church, I "repented" of very silly and embarrassing things that I thought deemed me unworthy for a temple recommend. I was so TBM that even a stray thought made me feel unworthy. I basically humiliated myself to support my brother on his special day. Although I love my brother, I very much regret what I put myself through for him.

The Mormon "sealing" ceremony is not like a normal church wedding. The ceremony is a very quick,factory assembly line like event that is not personalized for your son and his bride. The ceremony is rushed as there is often a line of couples waiting their turn to be married. I honestly don't remember my brother's wedding ceremony - that's how un-special it was. Either that or I blocked it out like I did other temple-related rituals.

Only you know what is right for you and your family, but you asked for opinions. I think you should tell your son that you love him but don't believe the Mormon church is true and therefor will not get a temple recommend. If he is upset and tries to persuade you to change your mind, point out that a "true" religion shouldn't prevent a good man from attending his son's wedding. Show up at the temple (waiting outside) with your head held high, a smile on your face, and nothing but positive energy and enthusiasm for your son on his special day. Let him know that you support him but not enough to submit yourself to a lie. Easy for me to say. I never had children.

you're only reciprocating the favor, and for a better cause.

I'm a mother of two grown children and was raised in the LDS church. I resigned several years ago and no one in my family knows and they are all incredibly active and believing. Our children were never raised in the church as I married a never-mo BUT at this stage in my life I would lie just to get the temple recommend. I don't think your son will be grateful that you didn't lie, down the road, just so you stood up for yourself. In the future, I think if he finally finds his way outside the church, he will be thankful for the sacrifice you made for him. Just my two cents...

What makes you so sure that no one in your family knows you've resigned? Don't you think your bishop might have tipped them off? Isn't it likely that your parents suspect you've resigned if you're married to a nevermo and your kids aren't Mormon? If your kids are grown and not Mormon, why on earth would you lie to get a temple recommend? It doesn't add up.

Also, If your inactive parents told you that they didn't believe in the Mormon church but would lie their way into a temple recommend to attend your wedding, would you be OK with that? I wouldn't. Children need to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them, that respecting ones beliefs goes both ways. They can always have a "ring" ceremony to include all inactive family members and friends.

go ahead and do it ---- set an example that your kid could be proud of....

I am still trying to figure out what the draw is in attending an LDS temple wedding. At the few I have attended (mine included), there was nothing special, significant, or even all that spiritual. I don't get it.

How about you skipping the temple ceremony and give your son a nice check for a wedding gift that represents what you would have paid the church in tithing in order to get a recommend? Then after your son and his bride are "settled", take them out and buy them some things that ALL young newlyweds could use (some furnishings for their place, a trip to Costco to load them up with groceries and things, fill his car up with gas, etc.), and then treat them to a great dinner at a fancy restaurant. I promise you, doing those things will have a MUCH greater impact on him than you making a token appearance at an overrated temple wedding ceremony.

I can see going along to get along, if Mormonism were just a game, as you say. But it's not a game you or your family should be playing. Maybe it's a very sick game.

You have an opportunity to help get them out. You're right that it's hard to un-brainwash people. But if you don't try, your grandkids will surely suffer. Lying to get a recommend is a very Mormon thing to do. Don't let these sick fucks take any more of your soul. There's the easy road and the high road. If you believe in the truth, prove it.

Maybe you don't yet see what the church has done to you. It trained me to lie for the Lord. The guilt they instilled in me taught me to keep secrets and lie to myself. When you lie to yourself, you have to keep lying and you end up not liking yourself. That's the vicious cycle they set up.

It's really bad. TSCC is a poster boy for the banality of evil.

I have closeted non-believing friends with temple recommends. One of my friends in Minnesota converted only because he wanted to see the temple. He plans on ditching the church right after.

Gratefully, I was the only Mormon in the family, so that doesn't come into play. They were supportive when I joined the Church and even more supportive when I left it.

"I will play along to make this even more enjoyable."

It eventually won't be enjoyable. You'll just be numb.

Just consider what happened to my FIL.

I think that he did not believe at all after decades of studying MORmON history and issues, but he chose to go with the MORmON flow because it seemed easier than making a disturbing exit from MORmONISM since the MORmON pattern had already been established and already had so much momentum in his family. He figured he would rather live with the LIE of MORmONISM and its tiny foibles instead of disappointing his faithful MORmON wife and extended family. After all, MORmONISM is not THAT bad, whatever THAT turns out to be, right ?????


As his children had been raised in MORmONISM, having faith in ridiculous things and being faithFOOL was valued over the being rational and logical. As a consequence of their MORmON upbringing and conditioning, when his daughter who happened to be my wife at the time and who happened to be mentally ill in advanced degrees beyond pedestrian regular belief in MORmON whackiness happened to see the Pace report then she was totally prepared and susceptible to completely accepting its outlandish content and even emulating it for the sake of elevating herself over others at any cost to others in true MORmON fashion. This is how that deal turned out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjc9Gk379wE

You do not know who in your family will be susceptible to mental illness in upcoming years. What I DO know is that MORmONISM and Mentally ill people are NOT a good mix for positive outcomes. You do not know who of your family in the future will end up on the brink of suicide or some other calamity at some time or another where toxic MORmONISM will be the thing to push them over the edge to disaster that might have otherwise been averted.

Less MORmON and /or less crazy is always better in the long run. Tolerating MORmONISM is a gamble, just like life is a gamble. Here is the big difference: A person has to tolerate the vicissitudes of life, but they do NOT necessarily have to tolerate the added burden of MORmONISM.

Are you really willing to give MORmONISM the latitude to operate and work its Toxic MORmON magic in your life and in the lives of your family members what ever outcomes it might produce with out any real resistance from you ??????

Ok I get it. Been there. I stood outside with my husband and other children while our youngest daughter got married. It hurt like hell. When asked by an arrogant TBM a few months before why didn't I just go to church and get a recommend so I could attend,I replied I would if I believed it.It was a few minutes out of a wonderful day and my integrity in tact.

OP, you didn't frame your post using the correct code words to receive unlimited support:

"I don't have a clue of how to go about getting a TR to get into my son's wedding, so I have to play the game to get one. No SOB loser cult is going to come between my son and me. F 'em. I'll do anything for my son, anything."


I, for one, am with you. F 'em, hate it more, love your son.

It's unconditional, right?

Please don't give them any more money.

When DH and I were TBM's, we witnessed two of our children's marriage ceremonies in the temple. With our oldest daughter it was summer and 103 degrees outside on her wedding day. After the ceremony, we went outside for photos and our younger children and never mormon family members were cheerfully waiting out in the 103 degree heat to hug and congratulate us. I remember briefly thinking that this was an awful thing to do to our family, but the thoughts got swallowed up in the moment. My wonderful children and both sides of our families were treated like dirt because they weren't deemed worthy to witness the cult's ceremony. NO OTHER CHURCH treats people this way! All are welcome to the wedding. My two cents' is this: If you really want to jettison honesty and integrity, and promote this BS discrimination, by all means, get your TR.

My point of view is that the Mormon church lied to you, so feel free to lie right back. Enjoy your son's wedding! IMO make your exit whenever you feel comfortable doing so. As you point out, convincing your kids about the truth of the church will not be the work of a day (or perhaps even ever.)

I agree.

The experience requires lying. I'd rather avoid it altogether, but many are willing to participate in lies. The bishop conducting the meeting is the worst liar of all.

What if your son were secretly hoping someone would blow the doors off this whole thing?

What if you talk to him, tell him your true feelings and ask him what he wants you to do?

If you publicly air your feelings, you all might learn if his bride is in love with him or the whole temple thing.

The truth from you is vital to your son, in my opinion.

Was it immoral to lie to the Nazis to save Jews?
The church practice of keeping parents out of weddings is immoral and despicable. In my book it is not wrong to tell them what they want to hear so you can be there for your son. Take charge by writing your own script. Just be honest with yourself and clear about your motives. AnD when the time is right, call them out for this harmful, destructive policy.

I can see a time in the not too far distant future where your semi active, less than enthusiastic involvement in the church has become obvious to all.They have stopped trying to quilt you because of a look in your eye, and that half smile and laugh you give them makes them feel uncomfortable when you say NO. One day your son comes to you and asks some questions and you tell him all the dirt. He came to you... I would tell you more but the vision is closing. Do what you want.

Lying to Nazis to protect the Jews, which was punishable by death, is hardly akin to lying for a temple recommend, where there are no consequences except for having to sit through a temple session and live with yourself for being a lying coward who can't be honest with your children.

Point taken. But I wasn't trying to draw an exact moral equivalency.

This father is given a moral/ethical situation to deal with--
Tell the lying church what they want to hear by lying right back at them, so he can be there for his son at one of the most important days of his life. Or play by their arbitrary rules and be kept out of the wedding. I think it's OK to take control of the situation and do what's best for the greatest good, that being his son.

Many parents and their children's broken hearts have been sacrificed on the alter in the Mormon temple by honestly trying to comply with this exclusionary and IMMORAL policy and practice.

except, to get a recommend you'll have to pony up all your back tithing. so, ouch.

Where is Solomon when you need him? This is complicated.

Playing fair when your opponent isn't doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps all is not only fair in love and war, but also in dealing with Mormons and their hurtful, bigoted, pernicious-to-the-family ways.

If the father doesn't go to the ceremony, citing integrity, is he teaching his son how to shoot yourself in the foot rather than something noble?

If the father does what it takes to go to the ceremony is he teaching his kid that the end justifies the means?

Is this some kind of version of Abraham being commanded to kill Isaac? Is the father this time going to tell Mormon God to go fuck himself by saying, "NO. I'm going to the ceremony of my son. How dare you pull this crap?"

I'm mostly on "Team Integrity" but, I don't know. I just hope it all turns out to be a happy day for everyone and that the Mormon church doesn't suck the life out of it all as is their norm.

It's by creating this fake moral dilemma that TSCC remains in power. It reminds me of two things. First, I had a friend who hated sitcoms because most of the situations could be resolved with one, face-to-face, honest conversation, so the plots were too weak to hold interest. Second, a friend who's a generation younger than I hated Brokeback Mountain because, in her mind, the entire drama was about people creating their own suffering, anyone of whom could simply say, "I'm not beating myself up over this any more." Me, being older, could understand how the characters couldn't do that. Because society had changed so much for her, she couldn't understand why the characters would endlessly torture themselves in a prison of their own making.

This situation is just the same. Every part of it is artificial, and thus, fragile as a house of cards. The elements are: 1) a son who was brainwashed by a father to believe that his wedding is the be-all and end-all ceremony of his life where his eternal, and etc.; 2) a society of brainwashed individuals who have a deep vested interest in keeping the story going, and who, then, will foment drama with the entire family in order to uphold the social norms associated with the belief system; 3) the father who did the brainwashing, in all sincerity, but who now sees he was misguided.

So the problem is, does the father speak up and risk bringing down the house of cards and making the son suffer, when he, the father, set the son up in the first place? I think the place to start is to accept the objective fact that the wedding ceremony itself is not the be-all, end-all blah, blah, blah, its made out to be. Second, the father needs to have an honest talk with the son, and tell the son the dilemma he faces: lie for the recommend and attend, be honest and disappoint you. What does the son want? The father must make up his own mind no matter what the son says, but still, an honest conversation takes out the bad-sitcom plot element.

Simply recognizing that the wedding ceremony is a nice thing, but the be-all-end-all element is a social control mechanism that the real estate empire uses to gin up contributions, takes a lot of the heat out of the ultimate decision. It is supremely consequential only because the cult makes the son, abetted by everyone else, believe it so. But, that's the father's consequences for his mistake in promulgating the religion, innocent and well-meaning though the mistake was. It's like the bad medicine of the last century--it was applied sincerely, but it still killed people.

Your lay of the land is remarkable I would say, MCR. I hope this helps the OP. Your words are a nice reminder of how long and windy the road has been and how many forks are in it.

Agreed, MCR.

Bravo, MCR!

This is some pretty good feed back. Thank you all.

"If TSCC is making things easier for them at this time, I will play along to make this even more enjoyable. I don't mind going back for a meeting or two and make them happier for showing up. At the end they know what I am doing and I am not going back forever."

So as I understand this, they will be happier if you do as they want, and they will be unhappy if you don't.

In other words, they are less happy if you are doing what you want.

So to manipulate you to do what they want, they will, in effect, throw a fit, like a 3 year old.

Are any of us doing what we want? Are we happy or sad depending on our success of manipulating others?

I resent being manipulated.

Years ago my son hooked up with a girl in HS who turned him against us, saying we were abusive, didn't love him, etc, as we had actually made him do chores and didn't buy all the toys for him. He moved in with them as soon as he graduated.

Anyway, come marriage time for them, non-mo type, my wife's brother had business issues and was a few weeks late committing to attend, so they said he couldn't come to reception because the seating was already planned. My wife argued with them, but was then threatened that "if you try anything, we are going to have security there!"

I decided this was all ridiculous, and if we were a threat, I'm not going. So we didn't. And predictably, son threw a fit for a couple years and didn't talk to us. But he eventually saw how his in-laws were and left them.

Which is strange, because he promised to love her until death - how could that have changed?????? Vows make it happen, right?

Stupid weddings. What a joke. The scam of marriage almost makes the church look good.

Anyway, if you are the type that likes to be controlled and manipulated and threatened, go for it. Don't ever let them grow up and be happy when you're being happy.

Don't ever offer them the opportunity to do something they might enjoy more. Keep them in a system that trains them to respond to guilt trips and fit-throwing.

Keep supporting the fraud of church and the fraud of marriage and weddings.

I was in your same situation, with my daughter. I had become inactive and had quit all my callings, because of illness, but I also had stopped believing. My daughter's TBM husband was and is a great guy, and she decided to limp through the Mormon garbage, as the price she was willing to pay to marry the man of her dreams.

I did NOT want to support the temple wedding. My daughter's father, her brothers and sisters, all of her unmarried bridesmaids, all of her new husband's siblings (too young) could not attend. I wanted to stay out, in support of my other children, who soon resigned with me.

My daughter knew the Truth, so I asked her what she wanted me to do. I was divorced, and was supporting her financially. I said she had a choice of having me at the temple ceremony (and hating it) or having me wait outside and give her all the cash that the required 5 months of back tithing amounted to. The cash would give them a nice nest egg. My daughter said she wanted me in the temple, because no one else was allowed to go and be there for her.

After the ceremony, while we were rushing to change clothes in the crowded, chaotic changing room, my daughter started to cry, and she said, "This is NOT what I thought my wedding would be like!"

I comforted her by telling her that the REAL, legal marriage was when everyone signed the wedding license, in the little side room. It could have been done in City Hall. She and I had planned the perfect wedding reception, for afterwards, and I said that this was the True Celebration of their marriage--with all of her family and friends together. She had planned special things for the younger family members, who had been shut out of the temple, and live music and dancing for the bridesmaids and groomsmen, and food and cake that everybody likes. The reception made her feel better.

It was very traumatic for me to go into the Mormon temple again. I have PTSD from the beatings and abuse of my temple husband (I endured him for 14 months, and still bear the scars.) If I had to do it over, I would not go.

As a result of the temple marriage, her children are trapped in the cult, and will probably be baptized, as well. But--I have a good relationship with these TBM's, and have already taught the kids evolution, natural science, how to be individuals, and think for themselves. Their best friends at school are not Mormons. They will not grow up to be racist or sexist (I'm pretty sure of that.)

Nothing would have been worth losing my relationship with my daughter--and the Mormons tried very hard! They still try to usurp my position as parent with the TBM's in my family.

Don't give the cult any importance! One way or the other.

You will lose, if you attend, because the cult will get your money. That's what they want. This is why they have that stupid rule--to get money out of people--and it works! I did it, and you seem like you will do it, too. I understand!