OK this is long, sorry but I am upset and feel like my marriage is ending. So my TBM wife was supposed to be at work and our alarm system is scheduled to turn on while we are out during the week. She stayed home and had a long conversation with my mom (who is on a mission). The security system recorded the audio. I dont know if its wrong of me to hear what they said but it was all about me so I dont feel bad (maybe I should).

Anyways, the conversation started because we got in a small fight this morning. I was taking the kids to day camp and we called out her name to say bye. She responded but we didn't hear so the kids shouted out to her again a 2nd and 3rd time. This was answered with a screaming WHAT DO YOU WANT. I got upset and responded with calm the F#%$ down we are just saying bye and I left. She came running out of the house screaming and saying you will not talk like that in front of the kids and pounded on my car. I left.

Her conversation with my mom was about how I stopped wearing garments, and who knows what else Im doing like maybe drinking or looking at porn etc. Trying to justify why I wont go to church because they cant accept anything else than people are sinners and thats why they dont go to church. My wife told my mom about some of my friends and how they dont go to church anymore and they do bad stuff now and now Im going to do bad stuff (even though they live thousands of miles away and have no influence on my personal life).

My wife said to my mom that she wants to move back East to her family but she doesnt want to have a broken home and split the kids up. She said she doesnt know how the marriage is going to work with me not going to church (even though its been working pretty much the same the past 2 years I havent gone).

She exaggerated stuff to my mom to make me look like a horrible person and told her that I watch rated R movies and swim in the pool on Sundays with the kids (I know, Im going to hell).

My mom suggested a TBM Member therapist to her (I have told her no that. I will see one but it cant me a biased member).

I know shes upset about me not wearing garments anymore. I didnt think it would cause a split up though.

Sorry this is long, and its partly a rant. Just need to talk to someone about it. All my friends that are no longer members were able to leave as a family. Im the only one that is doing it by myself. Just not sure how to handle this.

I think counseling with a nevermo is your best bet. You can't have a TBM counselor because Mormonism is the problem. It could be your DW is just being selfish, just like her prosperity religion taught her.

Your fight reminded me of my ex-TBM even though I never qualified to wear garments. IMHO, this is how this will go down.
-Her mad mouthing will extend to her TBM friends
-Your "bad behavior" will become more exaggerated.
-If you let her leave the state, your life will become more of a hell. (most states won't allow parent to take children out without permission from other spouse)
-You will find out who your real Mormon friends are (there won't be many)
-Forget about talking sense into her.

I wish you luck with this situation. Eventually mine turned out fine but it took a few years.

From personal experience I can tell you that for people who don't use foul language the "f bomb" is particularly egregious. I know for many it has entered into their daily language and they spout it off without blinking an eye. And you chose to use it in front of the kids which made it doubly offensive. You may think it a small thing but watching your language—especially around the kids is not much to ask to help hold a family together.

I wouldn't give in on the going to church thing (nor the swimming on Sunday nonsense). But if you can show your wife you love and respect her and put her and the kids ahead of everything else it will go a long way to keeping your marriage intact.

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From personal experience I can tell you that for
> people who don't use foul language the "f bomb" is
> particularly egregious. I know for many it has
> entered into their daily language and they spout
> it off without blinking an eye. And you chose to
> use it in front of the kids which made it doubly
> offensive. You may think it a small thing but
> watching your language—especially around the
> kids is not much to ask to help hold a family
> together.
>
> I wouldn't give in on the going to church thing
> (nor the swimming on Sunday nonsense). But if you
> can show your wife you love and respect her and
> put her and the kids ahead of everything else it
> will go a long way to keeping your marriage
> intact.

I get it. In fact I don't swear often especially in front of the kids and wife. It does happen when I'm upset but I don't get upset often. She does the same.

Notmonotloggedin gave sound advice.

It would be unwise to allow your wife to take the kids out of state. An LDS therapist or counselor would seem to be a bad idea. A good neutral counselor sounds like a great idea, though.

You had every right to listen to the audiotape. You should not feel guilty about that. Your wife needs to hear from an outside party - ideally a therapist - that it is wrong for her to discuss you and your relationship in the manner in which she did with relatives, and especially with your own mother. I wouldn't be all that thrilled with my mom, either, if I were you, and you seem to be appropriately miffed about her role in the conflict.

There's something intrinsic where most women and the F bomb at concerned. I have a garment-wearing sister (I won't call her a TBM. Many who know her probably would, but knowing her as well as I do, I can see how discriminating she is about which aspects of the faith to follow and which to ignore. I don't think she's entitled to the TBM label even though most of us here consider its use to be pejorative) who is closest in age to me of all my siblings and who uses much worse language than I do, but it's somehow worse in her eyes if I drop an F bomb than anything she might say, including some rather creative references to deity. Perhaps she thinks the garments grant her immunity from the damnation that would otherwise occur as a result of her use of profanity. The double standard drives me crazy, but I try my hardest not to use the dreaded F word at any time when she might use its use against me.

My nevermo spouse and I don't argue much, but we hit a somewhat rough patch that lasted for a couple of months in our third year of marriage. My wife took it very personally if I used the F word in a quarrel, and she seemed to hear nothing else once an F bomb was dropped in an argument. I eventually learned that if my point in any argument was primarily to vent, I could use the word. (In all honesty, sometimes when one spouse is really angry, the point IS to make the other spouse equally angry or hurt. It's immature, but I WAS immature then.) If, as was the case most of the time, I was genuinely trying to get a point across, it was in my best interest not to use that word.

I'm not sure why I'm sharing this last part, as the goal here is to help you through a difficult time in YOUR marriage rather than to relive the ancient history of my marriage, but I wish to avoid making either myself or my wife appear psychotic. I was in my final year of medical school during our difficult time. (Anyone who has gone through medical training or has known anyone else while the person went through it knows how intense years 3 and 4 of med school as well as the first year of residency are.) My wife was in her final year of law school and was teaching sixth grade full-time. She was experiencing a drastic worsening of symptoms of a life-long medical condition, which would ultimately lead to a jarring diagnosis. Dealing with all of these issues at once sorely tested our relationship. We made it through, and the trials we faced ultimately strengthened our bond, but our marriage hung by a thread for awhile.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I have no great advice, but I think I understand a little because I have a TBM husband. The person who is supposed to think the most of you thinks the least of you. And for no good reason, really. It seems so silly and petty that wearing garments, reading scriptures and sitting through church is so much more important than what kind of person you are. But that's Mormonism for you.

Good luck and hang in there.

If she won't see a non member counselor, consider seeing a member therapist. Sure, you run the risk that the person is overly influenced by the church, but there's also a good chance that the person has been trained well enough to deal with your issues professionally. Besides, it may be your only option if she's going to be stubborn about it.

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If she won't see a non member counselor, consider
> seeing a member therapist. Sure, you run the risk
> that the person is overly influenced by the
> church,

'overly influenced'? When you pledge your temporal and eternal life to something? C'mon.

OP, do not go from frying pan into the fire. You'll get beat up by a Mormon therapist, guaranteed. They likely will feel free to bash you behind your back as well. Sure, it's unprofessional. But that never stopped the antics of previous Mormon 'therapists'.

They swear allegiance to the church. Not to the standards of their profession.

And OP, I'm so very sorry for this. I trust you heard the recording for a reason. You must have felt this in your gut anyway. Betrayal by YOUR OWN MOTHER AND WIFE will change you, there's no way around that. Betrayal by YOUR OWN MOTHER AND WIFE will make you a stronger man, if you let it. If you ever wondered about your character as a man, independent from everyone, now is the time you see what you're made of.

I hate the gossip that is part and parcel of LDS. Hate it, hate it. But here you are. You cannot trust YOUR OWN MOTHER AND WIFE.

But you can trust yourself. Dig deep, be true to your values and DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR YOU. They will try to reduce you to a sorry ass loser who toes the line. Don't do it. Don't be an asshole either but do not dim your light for them.

Please come back and keep us posted, as you are able.

In my previous life I have had 2 counselors who were Mormon women. One of them was excellent, and I would trust her. The other was very professional, although not as skillful.

At that time neither I nor my first husband (who died in 1998) had anything to do with the church--so maybe the situations are not comparable.

But what I am saying is, these counselors were both professional and especially the very skilled one was very helpful.

I have read of another person who was greatly helped by a Mormon (woman) counselor also.

So I think I would agree that some counseling with a good counselor, Mormon or not, might be helpful.

There are lots of issues in marriage that are going to be there whether one is Mormon or not: just plain skills in communication, acting respectful toward one another, for example---are things which take skills and practice. If one had parents who modeled healthy relationship, then you are ahead, and maybe you think it comes naturally. I don't think it does; it is learned and must be practiced.

Any skillful counselor can help with these kinds of things.

relievedtolearn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have read of another person who was greatly
> helped by a Mormon (woman) counselor also.

I've read here of other persons greatly harmed by 'a Mormon'.

> Mormon or not, might be
> helpful.

> Mormon or not

Sure, 'Mormon or not', right? It's all equal anyway. Mormon, not Mormon, LDS, not LDS, doesn't really matter, does it? These things are just nuances and don't really count for anything.

I'm Mormon. Or not. I'm a helpful Mormon. Or not. Neutralities. Easy enough to just shut one's eyes and point. It doesn't matter, does it, relievedtolearn?

Thought for the day: 'Mormon or not'. It's all the same.

Except that it's not. As the OP is painfully living right now.

relievedtolearn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my previous life I have had 2 counselors who
> were Mormon women. One of them was excellent, and
> I would trust her. The other was very
> professional, although not as skillful.
>
> At that time neither I nor my first husband (who
> died in 1998) had anything to do with the
> church--so maybe the situations are not
> comparable.
>
> But what I am saying is, these counselors were
> both professional and especially the very skilled
> one was very helpful.
>
> I have read of another person who was greatly
> helped by a Mormon (woman) counselor also.
>
> So I think I would agree that some counseling with
> a good counselor, Mormon or not, might be
> helpful.
>
> There are lots of issues in marriage that are
> going to be there whether one is Mormon or not:
> just plain skills in communication, acting
> respectful toward one another, for example---are
> things which take skills and practice. If one had
> parents who modeled healthy relationship, then you
> are ahead, and maybe you think it comes naturally.
> I don't think it does; it is learned and must be
> practiced.
>
> Any skillful counselor can help with these kinds
> of things.

Even if he or she has the very best of intentions, it's harder for an LDS counselor to view the issues a couple faces in an unbiased manner when the issues ARE one spouse's desire not to practice the LDS faith any longer and the other spouse's reaction to his or her partner's breaking away from the LDS faith. For that matter, neither would an anti-Mormon be the optimal counselor if the counselor is to be fair to both parties.

Counselors are, like everyone else, inherently human. Any counselor, as hard as he or she tries to do otherwise, brings his or her biases into any counseling situation. The trick is to find a counselor whose particular biases are unrelated to one's particular set of circumstances as possible. Such is highly unlikely to happen if the counselor is LDS. As hard as an LDS counselor may try, he or she still views any situation through an LDS-tinted lens, sometimes even unaware of how his or her experiences have tinted what he or she views.

While a skilled and professional LDS counselor may very well be able to help a couple through problems related to communicating with respect and other issues faced irrespective of religion, a skilled non-LDS therapist can accomplish these tasks as well as delving OBJECTIVELY into the issues more central to a divide that has occurred when one half of the partnership has chosen not to practice the formerly in-common religion any longer.

Well my niece was made to go to a Mormon therapist when her parents were the ones going crazy on her (because of her 'horrendous sin' which involved sex with her BF when she was 18).. surprisingly the counselor sided with her and said that it sounded like her parents were the ones needing therapy.

I still wouldn't want to go to a Mormon therapist by any means. But just saying I guess occasionally they may see the sense in things. But you'd probably have to get lucky there.

I am sorry for your woes though, sounds very annoying. Esp. having your wife complain to your mom, that can't be good in any situation. You must most definitely feel like an outsider which must be awful.

Not sure what else to say except feel free to come rant anytime and really sorry about what you are going through!

Bitching to your mother about you is out of line. And if she'd bitch to your mom, she's certainly telling her mother and her girlfriends.

I would suggest that you try to consider this from her perspective.

She thought you were going to get her into the Celestial Kingdom. Now that's slipping through her fingers. She believes in it and I'm certain she's petrified she's losing her Eternal Family.

Good luck.

I'll say it again--these women don't know what they have and how foolish they would be to step out into the mormon single scene. On top of that, no other man will love your children like you do no matter how "special of a spirit they are."

And DO NOT LET HER TAKE THE KIDS OUT OF STATE.

Suggest you both chaperone a mormon singles dance. . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2017 06:56PM by cl2.

cl2,
You brought a smile to my face, my ex-TBM wife did the mormon single thing. For some reason she would call and tell me about the guys she met. That was entertainment....

Hey Ben imo yelling when you can't be seen to say hi or bye

Is ah

Well just think the tone the sound clamor as opposed to ah gentle and tender, as opposed to baritone melodious would be a Well. Being yelled at

Prefer far prefer sound when there is eye contact.

Something about combat hostile aggression loud percussive vocalizations


Two: you exmormon male leader you. Tossed a little nurture in being such a darn rebell you. Taking off your underwear and telling about it.arging about it Raging about it. Kids gist of arguing hearing dad doesn't want to wear his darn underwear please.... you know preschool humor then top it all getting them all to clamor walking away from her /their mother

Top it off by actuall yelling at a distance with a column voice bnot gentle courteous polite soft voice. Saying calm the f. --- down

To your wife? In front of your kids


Really? Really! I'd be so gone. Community property state spit your pretax set asides baby sell the house. But I'd record it call an attorney first document acts of emotional abuse and acts of parental alienation on going in that scene

You just publically enacted here. On Line.

Really it takes two.

Ben just tell her you don't like her or you don't want to be with her instead of harassing her in front of her children voice high volume pretending you're a victim upset about underwear ...

You harassed the woman
You role modeled emotional abuse of her to her children


Garments underwear. Hey chief

If you want to keep her and you still think this is underwear and it's all about her. I would see a counselor. Get some manners. Like exmo manners yeah

Call them and say I need some coaching in communication skills
I need coaching in communication skills asserting myself politely instead of indirectly putting out hostility on others

Tell them I want to communicate. I want to be accepted and loved instead of rejected and I am getting ruder pushing her away further when I wanted to be right and have rights now she may be out investigating her legal rights. Gee I need a therapist who is really skilled teaching communication skills

Come on Ben go get the skills for everyone lift your next generation buy a communication coach or counselor already

You know you love you can do this all differently Joy love hope dancing everything fun be to you ... find a skilled counselor to de escalate this and communicate

Being nice would help the immediate situation. Would it help the overall problem? The OP might have to walk on eggshells in his own house. Compromise has its limits. Another Mormon irony - be a doormat but don't compromise.

From her point of view, obviously she's frustrated but won't verbalize what's bothering her. The question you have to ask yourself is whether you want someone you love so much going through this emotional turmoil. Then use the magic words "I'm sorry you're in pain".

"I realize I have a lot to look forward to in the Celestial Kingdom. I'm a man and a priesthood holder. I get more than one wife. So I'll be by your side in church every week. Don't mind me looking around. I'll be checking out the single hotties. Great church huh? And you'll love working in the nursery! Who could complain. Certainly not you.. you love the church. Where's my garments. Oh and tell Mom hi! I know she'll be happy too! We all will be! One big huge eternally growing family. Me+you+her+her+her+her+her.. Forever!"


Hold my beer

For now, I would take your wife's chat as a good vent. I agree that counseling should be your first option. I also agree with cl2 that you should under no circumstances allow your children to "visit" the East Coast relatives. Spring for the plane ticket to fly your mom to your home, if needed.

I would also recommend a consult with a divorce lawyer. Ask about your options if your wife asks you to sleep on the sofa (don't,) move out (don't,) or attempts to take the kids back east. Forewarned is forearmed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2017 07:59PM by summer.

Ben, I'm very, very sorry. Here's a couple of thoughts--

Both you and your wife are under tremendous amounts of pressure because of the church. Both of you need to have a cooling down period. Please seek professional, non-Mormon, counseling to help the two of you work out an arrangement. This doesn't have to be separation, it can be something different like a couple-only weekend with specific objectives.

You know I love to cuss. My worry for you is the same for me. I avoid saying even mild cuss words in front of the family--not because of the words (they are just words and depending on the ages of your kids, probably have been heard and said by them)--but because when I lose it, my bad language gives my wife ammunition to use against me. My concern is that the bad language is an indication that you're getting hopeless, angry, and feeling out of control. I know this because when I get the feeling that my life is out of control the first indication is loud swearing. That said, most non-Mormon men cuss, and your use of bad language is NOT an a indicator of your integrity or goodness of your character.

Also, my friend, many, many years ago, in the heat of a church argument, I threw something. No one was hurt, but I realized how quickly anger can escalate to out of control. If you feel a sudden rush of anger, don't say anything, just get up and walk out of the house. Did not say anything, don't slam doors, just get up, gently, and walk. Go for a long walk. Feel free to cuss and rant in private. Anger is an attempt to gain control of a situation. Ironically, it's not anger that gains control, but calmness.

Lastly, you and your Mom need to have a non-angry, but seriously firm discussion about her influence in your marriage. Tell her directly, that she is unintentionally adding fuel to fire by talking to your wife about you behind your back. Tell her to stop it.

I wish I had better advice. I've followed your posts and my heart has gone out to you about this situation. I feel that you're a fine man who is dealing with a lot of unnecessary shit because you've made an adult decision about the church.

Please give counseling a try. My very best wishes for healing and clarity. Your friend, The Boner.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2017 08:18PM by BYU Boner.

Get some professional advice from a marriage counselor.

I have been reading your posts for a while now. I think the real question for both of you to answer is "Do I want to be married to this person? Am I better off with this person or apart from this person?"

Communication is clearly a problem at this time. I keep wondering if it wouldn't be best to tell her that you heard the conversation and you are wondering if this is the end of your marriage. It is your honest question, and perhaps honesty is what your relationship needs at this point.

I am not saying that being honest is going to save the relationship. The marriage is going to continue or end based on what you two want. But perhaps being honest will bring more clarity to the direction your marriage is going and focus both of you on what is really important to you.

I'm wondering if the drama is a n indication of a parent (wife) child (you) relationship? Your wife also violated a boundary between you and your mother. It sounds like your wife is married to the church, so you have competition. A non-LDS therapist may help as would a lawyer. Good luck.

Hate to break it to you, but marriage is a scam.

She didn't marry you, but your wallet and ability to enhance her church image.

She is most devoted to the church and to her kids - hubby comes last.

Because of this, gossiping behind your back is common practice - it is her and them against you. You are just a tool. Those wedding vows were just to trick you into thinking she cared about you, so you'd give her money and an image. Can't believe I fell for it. I actually cared about her.

I ran across secret emails my wife was swapping with family to hide money she was inheriting. Also after she threatened me with divorce, she finally admitted her mom was pushing her to leave me.

Having said all this, you can reach a point where you don't care. As far as I know, my wife no longer plays those games, and realizes her mom is an idiot.

Things will never be the same, but they are what they should have been from the beginning - a practical arrangement to support each other and survive, and raise kids. We finally grew up and got past the fantasy.

So, let her play her stupid games and gossip and threaten you and whatever. Just hold your ground. If she threatens divorce, do what I did. Tell her she is free to leave, but you will not. And tell her before she leaves, you all need to sit down with the kids and she can tell them why she's blowing up the family. Be clear with them up front before she has a chance to later turn them against you.

Chances are, if she has to be honest with them, she won't go through with it, as that would hurt her image with them. Image is everything.

The church (cult) has been the glue that has been keeping your marriage together all this time. Now that you are no longer a believing member, it's all unraveling.

Your wife cannot see herself in an unequally yoked relationship. It isn't what she conscripted for when she married you. She hasn't joined you on your exit out, and may not or not yet.

Remember to a TBM the F word is like dropping a bomb. You say that in front of your kids and it's like setting off dynamite in the livingroom. She is protecting her children from the devil. You are the bad influence.

Not trying to make you feel worse, but that's the mindset of a true TBM wife. Of course she suspects you of the other vices that goes along with your newfound freedom and what she regards as wantonness. That is what's been drilled into her head for however many years she's been a Mormon.

Tread softly, you are walking on eggshells.

She isn't bad, and neither are you. You aren't the same man she married in her mind anyway. You've turned into someone else. Realize her world is unraveling the same as you might feel yours is, because you both have become unequally yoked.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2017 04:20AM by Amyjo.

I was the TBM spouse in my case. I eventually came around on my own.

You are allowing spouse & co. to run your relationship while you are defensive and passive.

You are passively sitting by expecting *her* to lead *you* to the right therapist or solution or marital relationship while you sit on your thumbs.

You say your marriage has been the same the last two years. Obviously this is wrong. Big red flag has shown up. Are you going to pay attention or be passive? So far you are busy defending yourself and not doing anything.

Lead your wife to a good therapist whatever the religion. On the off chance you can find one a good Mormon therapist will be easier for her to accept at the outset. But either way, lead her. Nicely.

Cool it on the profanity. Doesn't matter why, life is unfair and illogical and emotional. Just do it at least for now.

Best of luck. As other posters have noted there is a lot of bad psychology and expectations instilled in your wife's head. If you are lucky it is not a lost cause yet and she is still in the griping and dissatisfaction phase and counseling might work and instill new insights and directions.

Don't expect her to stay in the same place while you wish the world will not change. News flash, it already has.

From experience, it's over unless you give in to her completely. You will have to subjugate yourself to her and be owned. Divorce is difficult, but everything worthwhile is. Divorce nearly ended me. Truly painful. Looking back, it's the best thing that ever happened.

In Morland, "Love" is little more than a Good Conduct award.

OTOH, Christ-Like love is given freely & openly, it is unconditional.

So I used to be like your wife. My husband joined the church just before we got married and I had always been a member. Shortly after we were sealed in the temple, he started having doubts about the church. We had so many fights about the church. When he stopped wearing garments I thought he was going to cheat on me because you-know they were the only thing keeping him faithful. I wondered if I should leave him in order to be a good Mormon. A few things that helped our situation were 1: we agreed at the beginning of our marriage to never discuss our problems with family members and 2: I actually got some good perspective from my bishop. I went to him for counsel and just told him my husband didn't want to go to church anymore. He only asked, "Do you love him?" I told him I did and he assured me we could make it work. I don't think that is standard advice necessarily but it was good for me. Things got better for us but it wasn't until I left the church three years ago that things really improved. When I think of the stupid, unkind, and judgmental things I said to my husband back then I feel so bad and also so grateful that he hung in there with me. If you two have a strong marriage outside the constraints of the church then you can make it too but it won't be easy as long as your wife puts the church above your relationship--like I almost did. I hope everything works out for you!

Oh, wait.... you told your angry wife to "Calm the fuck down," (in front of the kids!) and you're blaming moism???


Ummmmm, maybe some moism in there, but I'd also be working on my people skills and buying her a spa day or something....

I don't know you or your wife or your mother, but I can speak in generalities.

Please keep your relationship with your wife SEPARATE from your relationship with your wife! I can't stress this enough! Your relationship with your wife is more important. It seems your mother has opted out, if she is on a mission, and has temporarily escaped from being in your life. Concentrate on your wife.

In the long run, it is best to battle dishonesty and secrecy (which Mormonism is all about) with HONESTY. Don't become part of the Mormon back-biting, scheming, and manipulations. The way to do this is to be genuine.

Tell your wife and your and mother, separately, that you listened to their conversation!

There's something about telling the truth, that gives you personal power. I agree that it would be a mistake for you to "dim your light" for your wife and mother. In business school, they used to say that whoever does the most talking has the LEAST power. After you tell your wife and mother, just listen to them. Let them squirm. Let them try to explain. Let them gloss it over, or deny it. They will probably use the "best defense is an offense" tactic on you. They might team up, in a united front against you. They might bring the bishop into it. Squelch your anger, and above all, don't swear. Don't try to talk them out of the cult, or argue the religious issues. Just. Listen. Practice unconditional love towards your wife. Be the best father you can be. But don't back down. You want to teach your children 1) love and 2) integrity. The Mormon cult will not teach your children these things. Their mother hasn't learned these things. I'm afraid your mother hasn't learned it, either. This is something maybe you need to learn out in the world, in your own life, as you mature.

As you listen, try to understand. You need more information, before you decide what you want to do. All the counseling in the world won't work unless BOTH you and your wife can be honest.

Mormonism is like a nasty, black mold that spreads into every nook and cranny of your life. Its in your sex life, your underwear, your heart. Telling the truth is like shining bright sunlight into the dark corners. Mormonism shrinks and dies in the light, because it is nothing. You don't need to kill anything else, or destroy any relationships, if the Mormonism is eradicated.

Stay strong, and make the effort. I always think of the children, above the spouses, in Mormon marital problems like yours. How can you rescue yourself from the cult, and still leave your children under the bus, to battle through the very life that you, yourself, couldn't tolerate, as a grown adult? Your children need you!

The up-side of divorce, is that it often opens the door to another home for your children--a place where they can enjoy unconditional love, less punishment, honesty, laughter and joy, and the freedom to express themselves and to ask questions. You can have a relationship with your children--one-on-one--without Mormon interference.

I feel sorry for you. Your battles are probably just beginning, as you, yourself suspect, by the message in your title for your thread. Your wife will want your children to go on missions. Your wife will want you to go with her on a mission, like your mother is doing.

BTW, the cult and my MIL helped break up my family. Fortunately, like Incognitotoday, my divorce was the best thing that ever happened for me and my children. I wish you could see us now, compared to how we used to be as TBM's, with a husband and father who did not love us, and lied to us about his serial cheating. He blamed and accused me, until I almost lost my self-esteem. A good non-Mormon counselor helped me, and getting a great job helped me, and being around people who DID love and appreciate my helped me. It helped my children, too. They flourished, after they were away from DH's verbal abuse, name-calling, and criticism. Sorry to bring my own problems into this, but your wife yelling and beating on your car gave me a flashback of my ex-husband doing the same thing.

Again, my sympathy.

Meh..emotions were running high that day. Women need to vent. Wouldn't make to much out of it except that it is a sign that you need to make some changes in your approach. Sure she felt like going back East that day, but the next day was probably settled down. Personally...since you have kids, I would do everything in my power to make this work. Stay away from that behavior that triggers her. Meet her half way. Compromise and negotiate upon mutually agreed upon boundaries. Tell her you love her and you want it to work even though you've had a change of heart regarding religion. Not all Mormon women are unable to compromise. Doesn't always have to end in divorce. It's extremely hard on the kids. This is not "how marriages end" if you don't want it to end. Do a 180 and head the other direction and make it work. Buy her some flowers tonight. Tell her your sorry and that you love her. Take her in your arms and kiss her. Take her out for dinner. Start dating her again.

+1

I've been there. I did end up divorcing my first wife who was TBM. My TBM parents paid for HER attorney. My newly-divorced wife then moved out of the state. I approved it because I felt like I had no resources left to fight my ex and my own family and the endless series of court hearings and custody battles, and by the time we left I was already in 5K of lawyer and court fees. Looking back I realize that this is a fairly light-weight amount to get divorced, although my earnings were garnished and I was sending her $1500/month in support for joint-custody of our 2 children. I did go back to court and I was awarded the majority of custody but my ex lied about her income and my payments went UP even though I had our kids 80 percent of the time.

I guess what I'm saying is that divorces can be ugly and cost a lot of money that you won't really have. Just make sure it is worth it.

I would avoid talking about the church. Just flatly tell her you don't believe in it, you see it as a scam, and when the mormon church can show you what they did with the 4 BILLION dollars they earned last year you may re-consider (depending on what they really spent the money on). Using scriptures to counter scriptures is like using fairy tales to fight Greek mythology. If she really wants to find out "answers" for you just keep it to the facts...i.e. where did all the tithing money go? Giving back $50 million is nothing to a church that takes in BILLIONS. Your government does >1000% much more to help the poor than the church ever did.

You both can be happy without the church. I'm happier now than I was as a member. The church doesn't need to have this huge role in your life.

It seems to me that your wife is unhappy and she is blaming you for her unhappiness. She complains to her mom that you are not a worthy TBM and that re-affirms her own belief. This is where a non-LDS marriage counselor can help. Therapy 101 is trying to get the clients to accept responsibility for their own happiness. It doesn't come from the other spouse or from the church. If your wife is unhappy there is only one person she can go to to resolve that...herself.

The problem with church therapy is that this fundamental principal is undermined by the church's need to make you feel happy because you are a mormon. If you are truly happy and you got yourself there then why do you need the church? This can't happen so the church tries to provide their own marriage counsellor who will miss the mark when it really comes to helping people. Pay the money for a non-LDS counselor.

Help your wife find her way to become responsible for herself and for her own happiness. You will both be better for it.

Good Luck!

-Praydude (I'm not a therapist. I am just older and been through a lot)

My suggestions is to respectfully call your mother and explain to her that you have heard the conversation that she had with your wife. Encourage your mother to not allow your wife to vent to her. You would like to stay married and going outside of marriage for advice and support is not helping. As many others I would also recommend a non lds counselor. My husband has done this for many years when we would have different opinions he would call his parents and would say my dad said that we should do xy. You are married to me and I do not care about your dads opinion. As a result of this I have not talked to his parents in 9 years. He has used his parents as weapons against me I will not be around a loaded gun so to speak.

After the spa day & flowers, I wonder about the phrase Or vocabulary to bring it home:" how I /we want to grow , how I we want to grow as a couple - so we can be stronger as a team"

Why does this matter when we disagree over underwear /garments? Because garments to a temple marriedcouple wife represent being in someone's team (for life or eternally being loved kept cared for team tribe belonging). So despite garments it underclothing you want to express team you are on my team I am on your team I I protect you. That's what

A couple team. Sometimes looking back to when I was still Tom, that's the kind of thing my convert unbelieving off and on inactive husband implied and said to me; he kept using team words and us or we like he was on my team or wanted me on the team. Especially when he was coaching wrestling

One of my favorite saves was when I was freaked after hearing neighborhood gun fire, after disarming expelled juvenile offenders sneaking weapons into my classrooms-- making the stress and need for safety and security so huge My head and shoulders would snap straight at an abrupt loud sound;

Husband using sign: language hi Love you. Heart river flows
Before voice talking

When I succeed or explore a task or routine sign language :
In silence. Eyes focused calm friendly face faces me
Hands apart high applause sign. Love you sign

When defensive fearful can't stop arguing after already receiving an apology : wrestling referee match stop time time gesture (from either of us both obey time wrestling match over even it's to walk away


Husband approaching from front clearly in vision before communication

Husband wiring multiple stereo speakers to an amp made a home spa with music showing me he was on my side; setting up art desk and supplies; investments in me and for him instead of just for kids college medical costs or endless scouting or Coaching sports costs

Husband not standing over me (taller ) kneeling so his face was as high as me when I was sitting

Husband holding me inviting me to breath with him (deep breath in hale in nose exhale through mouth kinda slowly) pace safe calm back come back calm back down invitation gently strong safe
Place

Relationships s/b centered around Honesty & Kindness, those r short in Morland.

You are two indivuals.. you were meant to be that way. Khahil Gibran on marriage..
http://www.katsandogz.com/onmarriage.html

My reading of your OP is that your wife is seriously coming unglued. Let her go to the therapist of her choice, so she can get the help she needs. Suggest she take with her dr. Money's Mixed Faith Workbook, that you've offered to work through with her. If there is couples counseling, you go to that, but if your wife overreacts that way, she needs help. Don't stand in the way of her getting it.

And feel free to write your mom and tell her that you'd appreciate it if she refuses to let your wife dump on her and just tells her she won't listen to trash talk about her partner because she's supposed to be working it out with him. Do not trashtalk your wife in the process.

I hope this works out, but I don't see how it's going to unless you change and stand up.

Your wife behaves like a spoiled child, and, unfortunately, your mother's a child too. Neither one of them know anything about real-life. I was talking to a TBM woman years ago who had 4 children and divorced her husband after he quit the church. One son was sure the church told her to leave her husband after he quit.

Eventually, she remarried another TBM; but she remarked about how hard it must have been for her first husband to have been married to such a spoiled child as she was then, who, as she admitted, knew nothing, and especially nothing about where money came from. She said whenever he'd veto some petty desire of hers because there wasn't enough money, she'd pout like a five-year-old and plot revenge. Years on her own, struggling to make ends meet, changed her perspective.

As cl2 said, it's not easy out there for a single mom.

You're getting beat-up for dropping the f-bomb. But, really, so what? Look how this thing came down: A woman's husband and children call after her three times, and she responds "What do you want?!" You don't speak to your loved ones like that, you just don't. You were angry at the unfair and unwarranted slap, so you responded with the f-word (probably shouldn't have). But what does she do? She runs out of the house screaming that you should respect her?! Who does that outside of a soap-opera? A child-actor, that's who. She made a scene in front of her own kids. Then she actually banged on your car window? Sane adults don't do that, ever. Especially to their husbands in front of their children. This level of aggressive acting out isn't even appropriate, or tolerated, from a three-year-old.

Then she gets on the phone to rehearse her fears with your mom. And her fears are . . . that because you're not wearing garments you may be drinking alcohol and watching porn? And you're worried that she's making you out to be a "bad" person. Your mom hasn't got the sense to say, "What the hell are talking about?"

Apparently, neither she nor your mother realizes that the vast majority of the free, adult population of the world, men and women, have drunk alcohol and looked at porn. But that's the problem. When you belong to a cult that has instilled in you a deep terror of not going to the CK after death--because your friends in this life will look down on you--and combine that with a completely immature and blinkered view of real-life, you're going to have problems when one character in the drama doesn't want to live in a perpetual Trekkie convention anymore.

I agree with the poster who said you can no longer remain passive or worry what people think. Stand up. Be a man. Get counseling if you think it will help--don't try to force her into counseling with you if she won't go or makes ultimatums about the choice of counselor. Do what you have to do, and don't play the victim.

I couldn't agree more with both the assessment and the advice. Well said MCR.

That's one of the most insidious things about this church/cult. It makes everyone into unmoored victims who don't know how to handle the most basic aspects of normal adulthood.

MCR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope this works out, but I don't see how it's
> going to unless you change and stand up.
>
> Your wife behaves like a spoiled child, and,
> unfortunately, your mother's a child too. Neither
> one of them know anything about real-life. I was
> talking to a TBM woman years ago who had 4
> children and divorced her husband after he quit
> the church. One son was sure the church told her
> to leave her husband after he quit.
>
> Eventually, she remarried another TBM; but she
> remarked about how hard it must have been for her
> first husband to have been married to such a
> spoiled child as she was then, who, as she
> admitted, knew nothing, and especially nothing
> about where money came from. She said whenever
> he'd veto some petty desire of hers because there
> wasn't enough money, she'd pout like a
> five-year-old and plot revenge. Years on her own,
> struggling to make ends meet, changed her
> perspective.
>
> As cl2 said, it's not easy out there for a single
> mom.
>
> You're getting beat-up for dropping the f-bomb.
> But, really, so what? Look how this thing came
> down: A woman's husband and children call after
> her three times, and she responds "What do you
> want?!" You don't speak to your loved ones like
> that, you just don't. You were angry at the unfair
> and unwarranted slap, so you responded with the
> f-word (probably shouldn't have). But what does
> she do? She runs out of the house screaming that
> you should respect her?! Who does that outside of
> a soap-opera? A child-actor, that's who. She made
> a scene in front of her own kids. Then she
> actually banged on your car window? Sane adults
> don't do that, ever. Especially to their husbands
> in front of their children. This level of
> aggressive acting out isn't even appropriate, or
> tolerated, from a three-year-old.
>
> Then she gets on the phone to rehearse her fears
> with your mom. And her fears are . . . that
> because you're not wearing garments you may be
> drinking alcohol and watching porn? And you're
> worried that she's making you out to be a "bad"
> person. Your mom hasn't got the sense to say,
> "What the hell are talking about?"
>
> Apparently, neither she nor your mother realizes
> that the vast majority of the free, adult
> population of the world, men and women, have drunk
> alcohol and looked at porn. But that's the
> problem. When you belong to a cult that has
> instilled in you a deep terror of not going to the
> CK after death--because your friends in this life
> will look down on you--and combine that with a
> completely immature and blinkered view of
> real-life, you're going to have problems when one
> character in the drama doesn't want to live in a
> perpetual Trekkie convention anymore.
>
> I agree with the poster who said you can no longer
> remain passive or worry what people think. Stand
> up. Be a man. Get counseling if you think it will
> help--don't try to force her into counseling with
> you if she won't go or makes ultimatums about the
> choice of counselor. Do what you have to do, and
> don't play the victim.

Thanks for the advice. Things are ok right now. I apploligized for swearing in front of the kids. We haven't talked about anything yet. On vacation right now so it's not the best time, plus it's that time of month for her so emotions are already high. Meanwhile I love not wearing Gs. It's so awesome. Can't believe I did it for so long. I know she hates it and it's driving her crazy. I have a few things I want to tell her when the time is right.

Good luck! I wish you the best. I hope your wife grows up and stops blaming you for her unhappiness. I've been there too.