I'm having a healthy discussion with my mormon friend because I finally went out and told him that I don't think the church is true. He surprised me by telling me of all the stuff he knows, polygamy, Joseph forcing peoples wives and kids to get married to him or they wont receive eternal salvation, the four different first vision accounts, etc. He literally asked, "with all the truth you've learned about the church, does that cancel the fact the Joseph Smith saw God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, and that he translated the gold plates by the power of God?"

um...DUH???!!!?? pls someone enlighten me about how JS forcing his followers to have sex w him doesn't discredit the fact that hes a prophet?!!?? #confused

Its called Cognitive dissonance



In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.

Yep, so they fall back on "God is making it look like a scam to test my faith." or "It's Satan's plan to make it look false. I won't fall for Satan's plan. I'll use my super feelings to prove to myself that it's all true and I'll be rewarded for being so much more faithful than those weak unfaithful exmormons who are relying on their brains. Aren't I special!"

Never underestimate the power of denial.

Gay people can convince themselves that they like members of the opposite sex.
Addicts can convince themselves that they are in complete control.
Soldiers can convince themselves that atrocities are justified.
Politicians can convince themselves that taking bribes is OK because they are building a stable society.
Religious leaders can convince themselves that lying is all right because their teachings are for the greater good.

The human mind will protect itself by ignoring inconvenient facts that contradict strongly-held beliefs and desires.

You will eventually come to understand that a "healthy" discussion is not possible with a full-fledged cult member. Mormonism is a cult.

You ran head-long into cult-non-thinking.

https://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html


http://people.howstuffworks.com/cult6.htm

The problem is if he lied about so many things it is probable that he lied about the vision.

You'll have this conversation with multiple people of several religions about their religion's history.

They will dismiss all kind of ridiculous things the religion did and taught, and then defend it all by saying something (equally outrageous) like "but Jesus is the Son of God" or "Gabriel visited Muhammad" so there you go!

They have a few foundation premises, and they will go through any amount of mental gymnastics to protect those premises. They never seem to hold the religion accountable for a string of wrongs (even though the religion claimed it was divine instruction at the time).

Usually they arrived at these beliefs based on faith, emotions, and repetition, without verifiable facts or evidence. So, if they don't value facts as much as faith, they are a closed loop.

Because believing makes them feel better.

For those raised in the Mormon bubble known as Utah and the Morridor, it's their entire culture so it makes it much harder for them to quit believing. In a way, Mormonism has a lot in common with the Amish and other groups due to the self-imposed isolation from the rest of society.

You didn't go through major cognitive dissonance when you discovered the truth? Lucky you. For me, my relationship with the church was just like the lyrics from Alice Cooper's "Poison".

Your cruel device,
Your blood like ice.
One look could kill,
My pain, your thrill.

I wanna love you, but I better not touch (don't touch)
I wanna hold you, but my senses tell me to stop
I wanna kiss you, but I want it too much (too much)
I wanna taste you, but your lips are venomous poison

You're poison runnin through my veins
You're poison, I don't wanna break these chains.

Your mouth, so hot
Your web, I'm caught
Your skin, so wet
Black lace on sweat

I hear you callin and it's needles and pins (and pins)
I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name
Don't wanna touch you, but you're under my skin (deep in)
I wanna kiss you, but your lips are venomous poison

You're poison runnin through my veins
You're poison, I don't wanna break these chains
Poison

One look (one look), could kill (could kill),
My pain, your thrill.

I wanna love you, but I better not touch (don't touch)
I wanna hold you, but my senses tell me to stop
I wanna kiss you, but I want it too much (too much)
I wanna taste you, but your lips are venomous poison

You're poison runnin through my veins
You're poison, I don't wanna break these chains
Poison

I wanna love you, but I better not touch (don't touch)
I wanna hold you, but my senses tell me to stop
I wanna kiss you, but I wanna too much (too much)
I wanna taste you, but your lips are venomous poison

Yeah
Well I don't wanna break these chains
Poison

Runnin deep inside my veins
Burnin deep inside my veins
Poison
I don't wanna break these chains

forgot to mention I'm a lucky nevermo. so its easy for me to see the lies and hard for me to wrap my brain around how he doesnt see it. quickly beginning to understand

"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them."
--George Orwell

In his book, 1984, party members were required to practice doublethink, much as a BYU student who is taught evolution side by side with creationism. The two are incompatible, but any believing Mormon with intellect must carry the two in his or her head. This is something that I refused to do, and they made sure I paid for my transgression.

"The two are incompatible, but any believing Mormon with intellect must carry the two in his or her head."

Of course they are not incompatible, and many people of many faiths (not just LDS) believe both. Nothing in evolutionary science calls into question the idea that it is guided by and outside influence (ie God).

So when Nelson or Holland talk about a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Garden of Eden, are they speaking as prophets or as men?

When a GA talks about a literal Noah's Ark, is he speaking as a prophet or a man?

Mormonism cannot be true unless the Book of Mormon is true. The Book of Mormon cannot be true unless the Book of Ether is true. The Book of Ether can only be true if the Tower of Babel story is true. Therefore, as a believing mormon you must defend the idea that there was only one spoken language (Adamic) prior to c. 2200 BCE. Good luck with that.

Do you discuss your ideas of evolutionary science publicly, in Gospel Doctrine or Priesthood?

"they threatened to cut my throat from ear to ear"

Not so much in Gospel Doctrine. It has come up more than once in High Priest group lessons though.


"So when Nelson or Holland talk about a literal Adam and Eve and a literal Garden of Eden, are they speaking as prophets or as men?"

I fully believe that at some point, in a geo-specific place, there was a Garden of Eden in which Adam and Eve lived. When this was, and what was happening outside the garden I don't know.


"When a GA talks about a literal Noah's Ark, is he speaking as a prophet or a man?"

Likewise.

I think that time is something that we have wrong - dispensations are not all 1,000. If that were the case the dispensation of the fullness of times has 800 years to go.

I am also inclined to believe in the possibility that the Fall moved the earth into a different place and time frame.

I don't know, and frankly none of us do. The D & C tells us that details of the creation are not fully available and will not be until after the Second Coming.

The real importance of understanding, for me, Creation/Fall/Atonement is that I was created, I fall and the Atonement works for me. As universal concepts they happened; when, how and where I do not know.

During the first twelve years of my working life I was an analytical chemist. Empirical measurement is important to me. But without all the facts of how the Creation and the Fall happened I accept that God does and that as a result the Atonement was required. And I live by that.

If was take the temple story at its word Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden and into the telestial world - ie a place already extant and ready for them.

You went back for seconds on the Kool-Aid, didn't you.

Back for seconds? More like he's walking around with a Kool-Aid I.V. drip in his arm.

"I am also inclined to believe in the possibility that the Fall moved the earth into a different place and time frame."

Ah yes, the old "the earth was nigh unto Kolob ere the Fall" hypothesis.

Brigham Young, July 19, 1874, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 17, p. 144:
"When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. And when man fell – though that was designed in the economy, there was nothing about it mysterious or unknown to the Gods, they understood it all, it was all planned – but when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system, and the sun became our light."

And that's why we have 4 billion year old Martian rocks on the earth today.

https://www.space.com/8229-oldest-mars-meteorite-younger-thought.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a9696/the-ancient-martian-rock-that-fell-to-earth-16179984/

"I think that time is something that we have wrong - dispensations are not all 1,000. If that were the case the dispensation of the fullness of times has 800 years to go."

Length of dispensations are irrelevant. Please show us where any church leader has stated that all dispensations are 1000 years long. If the "dispensation of Jesus" had lasted that long, there wouldn't have been an apostasy until 1000 AD.

Per the official LDS Bible Dictionary, correlated and vetted at the highest levels:

4000 BC - Fall of Adam
2400 BC - Noah & the Flood
2200 BC - Tower of Babel

And there's no "geo-specific place" for the Flood. It was supposed to have covered the entire planet. No room to hide.

"The D & C tells us that details of the creation are not fully available and will not be until after the Second Coming."

You are aware that Joseph Smith said that Jesus wouldn't return until rainbows stopped appearing, right? Can you propose a mechanism by which light no longer refracts?

Finally, as for "no one knows," while we don't claim to know everything, we know enough to make an informed assessment. And to fall back on "because god" is a cop-out. God waves his magic wand; if that's the best explanation you've got, it's best not to waste our time.

whaaat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He literally asked, "with all the
> truth you've learned about the church, does that
> cancel the fact the Joseph Smith saw God the
> Father and his Son Jesus Christ, and that he
> translated the gold plates by the power of God?"

Well, yeah.
Since there's no evidence of any kind either thing ever happened.

I hit my historian-educated, very smart, very TBM brother a few years ago with, "Come on, you have to know it's all bullshit, right?"

I got the standard "I have a testimony of the truth of Joseph Smith's vision and mission. Nothing can change that."

And there you go. Nothing can change it. Certainly not facts.

Wasn't he waffling recently?

You must remember that "Born In the Covenant" folks have been told all these things since their birth, by people they are family and otherwise bonded with , so when outsiders etc disclose inconvenient facts, who are the "Families are Forever" people going to believe?

Look at it this way. If I had parents, grandparents, great grandparents, aunts, uncles, older siblings etc., and they all said the moon is made out of green cheese, and then some yahoo at school told me it wasn't and he can prove it, who am I going to believe? Especially if the family members can sound so plausible as they explain away the apparent discrepancies that the yahoo brought up.

In my experience it's the Born in the Covenant ones that are leaving the church at present - at least in my locale.

Andrew it is time for you to leave. This is not a Mormon debate board. You are certainly free to read as much as you want or ask questions. To defend the faith, there are other forums for you.

before they knew what the facts were. It takes on a life of its own. The fact that they have emotions about the church becomes all the evidence they need that it is true, despite the fact that the facts are different than what they thought was true when they developed their feelings in the first place.

Willful ignorance. At a certain point the brainwashing is self administered. Hard to break out of that since one has become immune to reason. Doubting your doubts is a booster shot for that. The goal is not truth, but to be the most stalwart member ever; to be a legend of the ward.

Well said Done & Done. Loyalty to the tribe has as much to do with it as anything. Facts that can create doubts are obstacles to be ignored, dismissed or overcome with the help of apologists.

"My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it." Thomas S. Monson

OMG. Is that real quote? Holy Schmoley! You gotta love when they say "so-called" science as that adjective is their only pathetic defense against the verifiable.

"Forget the unending discoveries of science brothers and sisters. We have FEEELINGS."

The quote comes from lds.org in a message to youth from from Monson to the LDS Youth. In the full context of the quote, he is not talking directly about his faith, but rather instructing the youth on what to say "Should doubt knock at your doorway"

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/02/the-lighthouse-of-the-lord-a-message-to-the-youth-of-the-church?lang=eng The is in the paragraph 4 up from the "Ideas for Home Teachers" header

"Should doubt knock at your doorway, just say to those skeptical, disturbing, rebellious thoughts: 'I propose to stay with my faith, with the faith of my people. I know that happiness and contentment are there, and I forbid you, agnostic, doubting thoughts, to destroy the house of my faith. I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and I do not attempt to do so, but I accept God’s word. I wasn’t with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it.'"

OMG. It get's even worse. That is frightening.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OMG. It get's even worse. That is frightening.

That was my reaction when I found the source of the quote.

I have had many people of Faith tell me that they use their Faith as a path to the truth. This is evidence where Faith is used to deny the truth and stop the search for the truth. Faith is not a path to the truth. Almost by definition, maintain Faith means the end of searching for the truth.

Maintain belief in something that the evidence clearly shows as untrue is often called "Faith".

This morning I went to the Post Office to pick up my mail. As I walked the short distance on the sidewalk I noticed a small mound of dirt and several of those small black ants milling about. I stepped over them but on the way back I paused for a moment to offer them some advice. I quietly told them that they were stupid for trying to make their home on the sidewalk. They wouldn't listen to me at all and even when I squished one of them the rest were just as interested in me as the flat one was.

This will be like you trying to communicate to your TBM friend who doesn't want to listen. It's pointless to even try. In a few days I will traverse this sidewalk again but won't try to educate these dumb ants again.