Posted by:
C2NR
(
)
Date: June 24, 2017 11:32PM
See my post from yesterday for background to this post. I had a very enjoyable visit with her and learned some interesting things.
I wanted to get my terminology right, so in the beginning I asked her about how they refer to things in the FLDS vs. the LDS. She said they refer to themselves as FLDS, but they refer to the mainstream LDS church as just “the Mormons”. She was so sweet and pleasant. She laughed easily and seemed at ease. She was in her mid 20’s but seemed younger.
The property in Short Creek is managed by a trust (set up by the state of Utah), which charges taxes and fees to the residents, and when they don’t pay they get evicted. Her sisters just got evicted for not paying $100/month to the trust. Many that have left the community have been evicted are living close by in places like Cedar City and St. George. Many have left to find work throughout the country, doing things like construction, concrete work and landscaping, which is the case with her husband. She is here with her husband “for time” and her mother, who had 14 children by herself. He is working around the area, and she and her mother find odd jobs, mostly child care and house keeping.
She believes Warren will get out soon. To her, this could mean months, weeks or tomorrow. She mentioned the stories in the BofM where god opened prison doors, and that he could do this for Warren whenever the time was right. She confirmed that no marriages have been performed since Warren’s incarceration in 2011, but the faithful are waiting for his release so that they can be married. Many teenagers have left the community for various reasons, but this is a big reason the young are leaving.
FLDS people are spread out far and wide, but most make great efforts to return to Short Creek regularly for Sunday services, or whenever they can. There are two ladies who travel from Canada (the Bountiful community) to meet up with her and her husband, and then the four of them travel by car to Short Creek and back, leaving on Saturday and returning on Monday, traveling throughout the night, changing drivers to stay awake. The Sunday services in Short Creek are conducted by someone with the last name of Johnson. He has been chosen by Warren to do this for the time being. He is not leading the church, just conducting the meetings. They meet Sunday at 2pm for a 2 hour meeting, and most of the speakers are called up to speak extemporaneously. The speakers are almost always men. She only remembers a couple of times women were called up to speak.
She is totally convinced of Warren’s innocence. I listened very attentively as she spoke about Warren, and gave her all the time she wanted to do so. I wanted to let her have her say without feeling any judgment or disagreement from me. She spoke for a couple of minutes about how she knows Warren personally, and that he would never abuse his children or do the other things he is accused of. I simply replied that I was glad to hear her say that and how hard it must be for her to hear bad things said about her prophet.
We went over our genealogies, and it turns out we are not related as I thought we were because her family “found out about the priesthood” in the 60’s and moved to Short Creek. I am related to some of the early founders of Short Creek, and although we weren’t related, being able to name drop helped her open up. I brushed up on my facts beforehand so I could speak intelligently about the line of priesthood authority according to the FLDS, such as John M. Wooley and the “council of friends”.
I am very much against polygamy, but I didn’t express that. Instead, I said that from what I had read, and according to the statements of BY, John Taylor and others, the FLDS had the best arguments for being right compared to the mainstream LDS church. After all, the early leaders clearly said that polygamy was essential to exaltation and if the church ever gave up polygamy it would be in apostasy. Also, the church (as an organization) is a product of the priesthood, and not visa versa, since the priesthood was restored before the church was organized. Their reasoning is sound, even if the premises are false. I told her that I could understand why mainstream LDS members would become fundamentalists after reading the older church publications. She asked specifically about the use in the mainstream church of the Journal of Discourses and the early volumes of church history. I told her that those were ignored, and for good reason, but that I was familiar with them and know why they are important to the FLDS. I told her that I used to be a fully committed Mormon, but that reading these old church documents played a big role in loosing my faith in the Mormon church leaders as actual prophets. This is a true statement, as was everything else I said. I basically told her that we were both in agreement that the mainstream LDS leaders weren’t true prophets, while not going into much detail about how I felt about the FLDS leaders.
I apologized for prying into things that were none of my business, but she said she didn’t mind questions. She normally didn’t volunteer information to people because most don’t understand. She told me I could ask anything I wanted, which seemed sincere, so I took her up on it. I asked what role the temple played in the FLDS religion. She said that the temple in Texas was intended to be used as a temple in the full LDS sense of the word, but it was never dedicated, and she doesn’t know if it ever will be, especially since so many people have been in it (meaning unrighteous people). So basically, the ordinances are done outside the temple. When I asked specifically about endowments, she said that was not openly talked about and she couldn’t say much, but she said, “I can’t say they aren’t happening”, meaning they were happening.
I asked simple questions just out of curiosity, such as which hymn book do they use. From what she described, it is the old black one before the green one. We went over what our meetings were, and what they were like. Their meetings more closely resemble what was in place before switching to the 3-hour block. For instance, Sunday School is a separate meeting Sunday morning where the sacrament is passed.
She said the biggest change in her community is that so many have had to leave the community to find work, and many now need to work for money that didn’t need to before.
She asked me a couple of times how mainstream Mormons viewed the FLDS, and I told her the truth. Nothing I said seemed new to her. I also expressed to her some of my personally views. I told her that from what I know, some men in her community have exercised “unrighteous dominion” over their wives and children, which she seemed to agree with by a nod of her head. I told her that I have a soft place in my heart for all of the women and children in her community, but I wouldn’t say one way or another concerning the men. My heart breaks for the women and children in her community, but I couldn’t say that to her. I felt admiration toward her for her faith and strength in her trials, but also deep compassion, wishing that I could somehow remove the women and children from that community, but actually, she is happy in her faith. To her, there is nothing to rescue her from.
When the subject came up of excommunicating men and giving their wives and children to another man, she referred to that as “being corrected”, which I thought was an interesting choice of words.
Her husband “for eternity” is Rulon Jeffs. I am confused about her husband now, because I have several sources that say she was married to Warren after Rulon died. I even have their marriage date. She still does not know how much I really know about her, but she has a pretty good idea. She seemed to take my knowledge and interest as a complement rather than stalking. Since Warren is still alive, he must have given her to the husband she is with now. I asked her if the husband she is with now is a good man and treats her well, and without any equivocation she said yes in way that seemed sincere. I told her that he must be a good man in good standing with the church and high up in the priesthood, because prophet’s wives aren’t just given to anyone. I could tell from her blushing cheeks this flattered her.
She is a delightful, good person with strong faith and high morals. I have nothing negative to say about her. I could say something negative about her credulity, but that would have applied to me eight years ago, so I won’t. That is all for now. If I think of anything later that might be of interest I may post again.