According to Steven Hawking the two biggest problems the human race is facing are climate change and overpopulation, problems that are threatening the very survival of the human race to the extent that we should be looking for another planet to live on.
It seems to me that Christians are largely responsible for electing an administration that is barreling full steam ahead at making both of these problems worse. Is there a method to their madness? Are they trying to end the world so Jesus can come back and they can all go to Heaven? Is the end of the world a self- fulfilling prophecy?
If so, what should those of us who want to stay here do about it?
Forgive me for reliving into politics, but I don't see how we can deal with the above issues without doing so.

I remember well all the bible thumpers who clamored for Reagan to start the war of Armageddon and just get it all the hell over with.

There will be a caliphate first, it will be the end of the western world.

Time to shame the postmodern, cultural relitivist. It's what jesus would do. ;)

Yes, it's not solely Christians who believe in the end of the world. Turkey, for example, is well on their way to returning their population to the 7th century, as another post here mentioned:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40384471

They also deny climate change (in addition to denying evolution).

The entire view that there should exist the ability to question religion is completely missing from their way of thought.

IF they are, they're way behind the Muslims and their crazy.

I don't think voting is nearly as bad as bombing and running down innocent victims with airplanes and vehicles.

The issues that you are citing started some 100+ years ago. They didnt't happen overnight - or in just a decade. And blaming a specific group is way to simplistic.....

I have a relative that has been writing about the subject for the last 45 years - he knows the details more fully than anyone I know. In general, it's about resources.

I don't think Christians are trying to end the world.

However, they can't wait for it to end.

For as long as there's been Christianity they've believed the end of the world was going to happen in their lifetimes.

Only it hasn't. The only sure thing about endings is our own demise.

again - some christians......

Christians aren't trying to end the world, but they are facilitating it. What I have noticed with the devout is that they are not concerned with the planet because God. He made it, he is watching over it. Not to worry. He will not let it fail.

That attitude is very prevalent in my Mormon family: "Global warming? Oh, I don't worry about that. Heavenly Father, you know? I have faith in our Creator. And over population? We've got to get all the spirit children a body so I think we can trust Heavenly Father with that one too."


Overpopulation is the most serious threat without a doubt. Even worse, an overpopulation that operates on credit--the worst invention of man. Nowadays so many of the young believe they *deserve* to have every convenience as a human right. So, our oceans are stripped that everyone can go to Red Lobster as often as they want. Our rainforests are stripped so everyone can have a new house, and a big enough one to impress the neighbors. Our air is polluted. Our oceans are polluted. Our thinking is polluted. There, got that off my chest.

The human population reminds me of the mealy bug infestation on my favorite bush. Tiny little fluff balls almost killed the whole thing before I spritzed it with a mild solution of Dawn.

A few things:

1. Claiming "Christians are doing this" or "Christians are doing that" increasingly sounds like a generalization that we'd likely avoid using with any other group out of fear of being labeled a bigot. Christians are not a monolithic group in regards to any political or specific personal policy. Many of you here cite the weakness of Christianity due to its significant theological splintering, but that fact gets swept aside for convenient generalizations like this topic.

2. Islam is poised to eclipse Christianity as the worlds largest religion by 2070. As a group, Muslims reproduce faster than any other subset of the population. Pew estimates that in the coming decades they will grow at a rate roughly double that of the rest of population. And unlike Christianity, Islam is also a form of government, so it will bring its own pressures to bear as Muslim majority nations tend to look very different than Christian majority nations in terms of environmental policy and human rights.

3. Pulling out of the Paris accords is complicated, and much of the impact (if any at all) will not be known or imagined for a long time. Paris wasn't slated to take effect until 2020, and it granted the world's largest polluters (India and China) much latitude in rolling out any significant reforms. The good news is that a central element of Paris was a massive wealth transfer to developing nations that will not happen and save us hundreds of billions of dollars.

4. It's interesting regarding overpopulation that many of those most prominent in the science and technology sector seem to lose all faith in their own ability to meet growing challenges, even though we have a strong history of massive technological leaps that have improved the global quality of life even as the population continues to grow.

Crop yields is a good example. With some crops, the same plot of land today is capable of yields unimaginable just a few decades ago. And more breakthroughs are in the pipeline to see that growth continue. China has developed a corn that is resistant to pests and matures earlier resulting in a huge increase in productivity. And that's just one crop.

The amount of food lost through spoilage is one of the biggest threats to our food supply, with about a quarter of the total caloric production lost through spoilage and transport. This is also an area where some of the greatest technological advances are taking place.

Solar energy is another sector that is exploding technologically. With efficiency increasing as cost of production decreases, it's possible no government intervention will be needed to eventually shift our economy away from fossil fuels. And when it happens organically rather than via regulatory fiat, it will be impossible to reverse via contrary regulatory fiat. A graph showing the cost of solar panels vs. the efficiency of solar panels has both those headed in opposite directions. Solar power is getting cheaper. Quickly.



So, I'd worry less about the nefarious motives of those Baptists next door, and spend some time contemplating the global growth of a religion that has many adherents who assume its true existence is found as a form of central government with its own unique laws. This should be especially troubling to women, minorities and the LGBT community. And trust that science will continue to do what it does best in regards to keeping the lights on, keeping us fed and housed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/islam-will-largest-religion-world-2070-says-report/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/06/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/
http://www.reuters.com/article/china-corn-idUSL3E8M221920121111
http://www.wri.org/blog/2013/06/numbers-reducing-food-loss-and-waste
http://news.energysage.com/solar-panel-efficiency-cost-over-time/

I believe that science does understand the concept of limits.....

It's that point that should be of concern....

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, I'd worry less about the nefarious motives of
> those Baptists next door, and spend some time
> contemplating the global growth of a religion that
> has many adherents who assume its true existence
> is found as a form of central government with its
> own unique laws. This should be especially
> troubling to women, minorities and the LGBT
> community. And trust that science will continue to
> do what it does best in regards to keeping the
> lights on, keeping us fed and housed.

I'll worry about both.

Since, esssentially, Islam is now where christians were a few hundred years ago. Which on the one hand is hopeful (secularists managed to wrest political power from christian theocracies and stop the worst of their bloody practices and intra-sect wars). And on the one hand is worrisome (ignorance, science denial, and wishes for a return to theocracy persist in individuals and some christian sects).

:)

The vast majority of Christians are Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Does Pope Francis act like he is trying to end the world? Of course there are those Amish and Mennonite terrorists in our midst. The evangelicals are losing influence. The anti-Christian mentality on this board is sometimes disturbing. I don't know many Christians who are strapping bombs on themselves and blowing themselves up at a rock concert for teenage girls.

Yeah a lot of posters think all Christians are science-denying Biblical fundies. Uh, no, they are not.Ignorance and stereotyping are not helpful.

For the record, most Muslims arent bombing rock concerts either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2017 05:20AM by bona dea.

I agree most Muslims are not strapping bombs on themselves, but that's what the original poster seems to think Christians are all about.

Justin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree most Muslims are not strapping bombs on
> themselves, but that's what the original poster
> seems to think Christians are all about.

(from the OP):
"It seems to me that Christians are largely responsible for electing an administration that is barreling full steam ahead at making both of these problems worse. Is there a method to their madness? Are they trying to end the world so Jesus can come back and they can all go to Heaven? Is the end of the world a self- fulfilling prophecy?"

Nothing about strapping bombs anywhere. Right?
There is stuff about political choices, and other actions.

:)

Justin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> anti-Christian mentality on this board is
> sometimes disturbing. I don't know many Christians
> who are strapping bombs on themselves and blowing
> themselves up at a rock concert for teenage girls.

As bona dea said, there aren't many muslims doing that, either. Only a very disturbed and dangerous few.

And that's not the only way to do real harm to a society, either.

Just for the record, by the way, I'm not anti-christian. Or anti-muslim. Or anti-mormon.

I'm anti-stupid and anti-harmful. Christians, muslims, buddhists, atheists, whatever that don't act stupidly and don't cause harm are OK with me. The ones who do act stupidly and cause harm aren't OK with me. No matter what religion they are or aren't. I just don't give christianity (or Islam or anything else)a free pass when it motivates stupidity and harm.

I wrote this post on my phone from an art festival on Saturday where I had way more than I should have to drink. Hence it is unnecessarily sarcastic.

The main point I was intending to make is that religions with a finalistic mindset, and as some have pointed out Islam would fit this as well, seem to be rather lax when it comes to the problems of this world, especially the problems of this world in the future. This stems from 2 basic ideas:

1. They think there is a certain point at which the world will end due presumably to God's judgement.

2. They think they are going to a "better place" when they die.

Therefore the well-being of this world and those who will live in it in the future is not a priority. There is no need to make any sacrifices to ensure a brighter or even livable future in a world that is doomed and basically unimportant due to its inferiority to Heaven. Overpopulation is justified because preventing it prevents people from coming into an existence where they can live forever. Besides, if Jesus died for your sins then there are no punishments for sin and no rewards for virtue (a Christian on this board specifically emphasized the lack of reward part).

As someone who has been convinced by the groundbreaking research of Ian Stevenson that reincarnation is what happens to us when we die, I see the complacency of the above ideas as more than disturbing. When I come back I want clean water to drink, healthy food to eat, and clean air to breathe. I am not willing to pay for the luxuries of this life with the necessities of the next. I feel like I am so outnumbered by people who don’t care that it may not matter.

And yes, I do realize there are some atheists who don’t give two shits about what the world will be like after they have left it.

We have the solutions to climate change and overpopulation but we lack the incentive to implement them in any meaningful way.

And yes, Pope Francis is trying to end the world. Despite the façade of being concerned about climate change, if he is in favor of unrestricted human population growth he is by no stretch of the imagination an environmentalist.

got2Breal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to Steven Hawking the two biggest
> problems the human race is facing are climate
> change and overpopulation, problems that are
> threatening the very survival of the human race to
> the extent that we should be looking for another
> planet to live on.

Smart guy, but not necessarily right. I would agree that in the grand scheme of things climate change and overpopulation are really big deals but so is entropy. And I don't see people kicking down doors trying to legislate entropy away.

> It seems to me that Christians are largely
> responsible for electing an administration that is
> barreling full steam ahead at making both of these
> problems worse.

First, I wonder at this idea that one single group can sway an election. It definitely was the case years ago but not so much now. Second, demographics are a complicated thing. To put it into perspective. 70% of the nation identifies as Christian, with 50% of those people being moderately practicing. With the added caveat that women tend to identify as practicing about 60% of the time and men around 40% of the time. You get my drift?

> Is there a method to their
> madness? Are they trying to end the world so
> Jesus can come back and they can all go to Heaven?
> Is the end of the world a self- fulfilling
> prophecy?

This is a funny statement. I'm not necessarily going to argue the madness part of this but if as you say they are mad, than how can they organize enough to end the world?

> If so, what should those of us who want to stay
> here do about it?

Stay here?

> Forgive me for reliving into politics, but I don't
> see how we can deal with the above issues without
> doing so.

These issues are perceived problems. You have assigned guilt without understanding what the issues are. The US is not the most overpopulated (if it is at all) and it is definitely not the most polluted. And I'm not sure it is our place to tell those countries who do have population issues or pollution issues how to handle their shit.

Perhaps the U.S. is overpopulated or not. I guess as long as China is around to sustain us with cheap crap, we will be fine and can point the finger at other nations. :)

You post made me think in regards to overpopulation that the real problem is not quantity, but quality--responsible contributors rather versus entitled consumers. The profit from supply and demand fueled by credit may be the real evil here?

Joseph Smith bragged that he was better than Jesus or Muhammad. This was an interesting article: The Muhammad - Joseph Smith Comparison: Subjective Metaphor or a Sociology of Prophethood? by Arnold H. Green. He quotes Richard Francis Burton: "Mormonism claims, like El Islam, to be a restoration by revelation of the pure and primeval religion of the world". He said that: "As an elect sect-a spontaneous agglomeration of tenets-Mormons are Muslims" in their belief in a literal resurrection, in their practice of polygamy, and in their views of the inferior status of womenkind. Brigham Young's title, "Lion of the Lord", he added, "was literally borrowed from El Islam".
IMO, most religion groups are trouble, and they use suppression and fear to further their agendas.
Pizarro tried to force Christianity on the Incas because of the Spaniard's greedy obsession with gold. The Incas got fed up and filled a room from floor to ceiling with gold. They melted it down and forced the Spaniard's to drink it, thinking maybe that would quench their thirst!