I just got back from a (beautiful) camping trip. With time and space to contemplate, I was thinking about the posts about waves of anger, and also the one "it's not the life I'd have chosen, but it's the one I have."

I was thinking about forgiveness. Letting go---and how hard it is, how I, at least, sometimes don't even want to, even though I know holding on to anger and justifying it with how bad what happened was is a good way to ruin the rest of my life too.

Thing is, how do you do it? So---I have a couple of books I bought by people who have been through some real stuff and figured out how to forgive, so I'll pass on the info.

The Courage to Forgive, by Joyce L. Villeneuve who was a survivor of the Rwanda genocide.

Forgiving, by Desmond Tutu and Mpho Tutu (south Africa apartheid and all that.)

I also love The Hiding Place, by Corrie Ten Boom. She and her family in Holland participated in the underground hiding and helping Jewish people during WWII. Almost all of her family were arrested after betrayal by a collaborator; her father, her sister, and a nephew died in prison; her brother died later of complications from imprisonment. She and her sister Betsie ended up in Ravensbruck; Betsie died there; Corrie did not. She writes about forgiveness, also.

Because these are written by people who have survived the unimaginably horrible cruelty of people, and learned to forgive, they might help some of us who are still having trouble with how to let go and live life well.

There's a Jewish lady named Eva Kor, a survivor of the twin-experiments at Auschwitz. She has something called "The forgiveness project" that might be helpful too.

Personally I don't believe in forgiveness. What I've done to others I must learn from, what has been done to me cannot be erased. Therefore I don't forgive anyone and I don't ask anyone forgive me. *Just my opinion

Very astute 'observation'. The 'toxic' waves of anger were clear in many of the posts! Those people are only continuing to 'punish' themselves by 'blaming' others for 'whatever' or not 'forgiving' and moving on 'positively'. Negative emotions in general, just continue personal 'hurt'.

Actually, going into nature is a 'spiritually elevating' experience even for those who do not relate to that terminology. I have recently learned more about raising your frequency and vibration, but I am not sure anyone on this board is ready for that. I think your 'camping' trip helped 'open' you up to the truth in this area by raising your frequency and vibration!

I enjoy camping also and a member of a camping club.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2017 07:26PM by spiritist.

I heard of raising your frequency and vibration to match the frequency of the earth--promoted by a bishop's wife who straps on a few magnets before each "session."

I haven't been back.

I figured if I wanted to match the frequency of the earth, I'd go stand on the earth.

'I heard of raising your frequency and vibration to match the frequency of the earth--promoted by a bishop's wife who straps on a few magnets before each "session."
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Normally, one raises their frequency and vibrations to obtain 'goals' they want in their life and/or be 'open' to truth, guidance, etc..

This is normally done by meditation, music, being in nature, exercise, etc. etc. based on the individual involved.

Here many meditators claim a calming influence from meditating. However, main goals in my opinion should be getting 'truth' and achieving improvements in your life.

Just recently a friend, exmo that has been Christian for many years, came up to me and said he had just started meditating and now can't see the 'bible, church he attends, or biblical God' as being even 'rational let alone true'. Now, that is the kind of 'knowledge' that will 'change' ones life and he didn't have to discuss or worry about what all the positive and negative 'experts' use to justify their 'opinions'! I believe he got that information/truth directly without going through another human or man-made organization.

I don't know where you derived from my thread on "It's not the life I would've chosen, it's the one I've been given" as one of anger. Maybe I misread your OP, but there isn't anger in that statement. It's an observation and acceptance of those things I don't have control over.

As for anger, I used to believe it was necessary to forgive in order to not become bitter or vengeful. That was steeped in my Mormon upbringing. That no matter how bad you are mistreated or abused, there's a duty to forgive one's persecutors.

That's being a doormat IMO.

One of my rabbis said this in one of his sermons about forgiveness. That we are *not* to forgive ever unspeakable evil or horrors inflicted on people by others. Such as Hitler's Holocaust. He is the personification of evil. There is no requirement or justification to excuse or forgive him. It's the anger that in part helps to keep the history alive of what happened, as most of the Holocaust survivors have already died by now.

Look at Elie Wiesel, among other survivors. Only by discussing the unthinkable, it is anger in part that keeps us from not forgetting. Never Again !

I didn't see anger in your post. I think your post got included in this about forgiveness because

the last stage in the grief process is acceptance

In my life, the first stage of getting unstuck from a bondage of anger has been to realize that "it is what it is" is a necessary platform for me.

It's taken a whole lot of decades for me to get beyond the "magical thinking" that somehow "it was supposed to be" some way I wished it were---instead of saying, "it is as it is" which I'm now discovering is very freeing in lots of ways.

Freeing me to not expect someone else to act or be how I want instead of simply how they are.

Freeing me to forgive. (I was taught forgiveness as you described above---and not found it particularly do-able. I'm going to think about what you've shared here about forgiveness; new idea for me!

So thanks!!

The acceptance for me has been the idea that I really haven't had control over my environment I was cast into or raised in. Some things were beyond my control to do anything about.

Loss of family is another. Either through death or separation is one of the most difficult things we have to go through in this life. So yes, the grieving process is a work in progress as life itself is.

The evil that people may have perpetrated on me or my loved ones I will never be at peace with.

It isn't about harboring anger or not finding solace. I just refuse to give into destructive actions, &/or betrayal of my trust (in some.)

For example, the cult dividing my children from me as a measure of condemnation for my leaving the cult. They drove a permanent wedge between my daughter and me I will never forgive them for. One of my TBM brothers is at fault, as is the last bishop where we attended, his wife and the YW leaders who went behind my back while daughter was a minor to do things against my knowledge, authorization, or consent.

Once their dishonesty became apparent is when I resigned. If the church disinformation wasn't bad enough growing up Mormon, the betrayals of those in positions of trust was the last straw for me. They still connived after we left, and schemed. Harboring my daughter in her 20's at the bishops house while she changed her name w/o my knowledge and moved overseas unbeknownst to me. They made no effort whatsoever to foster a reconciliation between daughter and mother, and turned their back on me when I reached out to them for support and assistance in reuniting me with her.

There can be no forgiveness for that, only hurt and disbelief.

The great evil of Hitler unleashing death and destruction on the Jews and ultimately the world is another. There is no forgiveness in this life or the next. In fact we must not ever forgive evil. There is absolutely no justification for that.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2017 07:18PM by kathleen.

I'm with Amyjo on this one!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2017 07:21PM by kathleen.

The attitude I've seen is "we should just forget the past and ignore anything bad that happened." I have PTSD from my past, both from the leaders in the lds church and from what my ex put me through when he left, let alone the damage that happens to you when you are the wife of someone gay. You lose your identity. Just like the gay person is with the wrong gender, so is the wife. He doesn't want you. He doesn't desire you. It does A LOT of damage.

I've been in therapy for YEARS. I only go now and then now, but used to go twice a week. My therapist gives lectures nationwide and uses my story as a success. That guy who left me and abused me emotionally (along with his boyfriend) lives downstairs now and we share the yard, kitchen, etc., I see him everyday. He is one of my best friends.

YET if I start to cry over something that takes me back to my trauma, then some people seem to think I HAVE A PROBLEM and that I should just GET OVER IT. Hell, I've been trying to get over it for years. I've built a new life. I have a boyfriend of 12-1/2 years. I raised my kids. I pulled myself out of financial disaster. I forgave my ex. And yet people think I should just pretend it never happened. It shaped who I am. So if I forget the anger and pain, I should just forget all the good, too?

It is part of who I am and I deal with it. My therapist told me if all the people in my life would go to therapy, that I wouldn't need it, but I choose to get it, so they consider me the "identified patient" in the family. I am the most stable of them all and have been successful at my life.

So I'll have anger when I feel like it, like when my daughter says she loves all her mothers on mother's day--after all I've done for her. It hurt. I'm still not over it. AND I'll be angry when the bishop's wife from the singles' ward that we were in over 30 years ago sticks her nose in our business and makes me out to be the bad guy. You bet I'll be angry. AND my therapist said I should be. That anger is a good thing.

I get sick of people telling me I can't have rage or anger. If I don't, I would have never gotten to where I am. It is part of the grieving process.

Oh, this is really good. THANK YOU!

Oh my goodness; I am so sorry for your loss of a lovely relationship with your daughter. That is horrible. I could go on and on--but won't---about what it is to be a mother---how much you invested in your dear child---and the betrayal---whew.

We sure don't in any way accept that evilness is ok; it isn't.

Your thoughts about how much we really don't have control over our environment, especially as kids, or of what the dear adults in our lives have taught us, done to us, to form things that are cell-deep and very difficult to get loose from is something I am still coming to grasp, and every bit that I grasp, helps me be more free.

That's why I associated your post with the waves of anger post. The waves of anger---triggers and the chemicals they release---the fact that anger, rather than being a sin is instead a signal that something is wrong; hello, pay attention!! is new to me in the last few years; I have been so crippled by fear and guilt over things I didn't have any control over, and still dealing with the backlash decades later.

And heartily sick of any version of "That happened years ago; get over it." Yeah, as soon as my stomach-ache goes away and I quit shaking, I'll work on that. grrr.

You can forgive people and at the same time not allow others to step all over you.

DH has a problem with this. As Christians we know we are to forgive others for "all fall short of the glory of God". He gets tripped up because he thinks this means you have to be a sucker for people. Not so. There is a way to forgive and yet draw a line in the sand with tact.

TBM family (some of them anyway) have really behaved in ways that are offensive and rude. Forgiving them is fine. Allowing them to repeat the behavior over and over not only makes us angry but does not make them meet the consequences of their own behavior.

Yes, I agree.

I think that sometimes people confuse forgiveness--which is letting go---

with reconciliation of a trust-relationship---which you cannot do with someone who is not trustworthy---

Or with saying "It's ok. What you did, or neglected to do, was ok"

Forgiveness is not that at all. Some things are not ok.

Sometimes mercy can even let a person not pay the consequences of their wrong choice---and sometimes not, too. Am I going to be willing to let a serial pedophile off the hook? NO.

Am I going to recommend a woman go back to the abusive husband who continues to beg forgiveness and then continues to beat up her and the kids? NO

Can I forgive that person, and yet not let them continue to harm me or my family?

YES.

Thanks for making this difference clear; it's a very important difference.

It's a tricky topic because I think that a lot of people believe that to forgive is to excuse the behavior which hurt you profoundly. It is not excusing the behavior so much as understanding it within the context of (what you have termed) the reconciliation of a trust relationship. It's the last step in a long process of coming to terms with what happened to you. It takes a long time to process, create emotional distance, and to develop self-esteem after trauma. Many people never get to the forgiveness point, and that's okay, that's where they are at. But if you are able to forgive, I liken it to leaving behind the two heavy bags that you have been carrying with you for a very long time. You set them down for the last time, and you walk away, unencumbered. That's what it feels like.

I find the assumption offensive that anyone who can feel anger at times over something egregious from their past is somehow unable to move on and is ruining the rest of their lives.

If that is the case for you, fine. But to assume it is the case for others is condescending.

In the end, it is how you use the anger. It can be used for good or evil. The unfair things that happen to us in life are still part of the fabric of who we are. They do need to be processed and they do need to find their final place in our memories, but this forgive and forget thing is the child of religious dogma. It is also a tool used to shift blame to the victim.

I feel very bad for some of the things I have done in my life. I would appreciate very much if the offended were to know that I have grown since then and am a better person. I would prefer their understanding to their forgiveness.

The same for anyone who has offended me. I would just like to know that they grew past that behavior. The Mormons have not grown past their behavior, and , in fact it is worse. Because of this I feel anger from time to time, especially at what they are still doing to my family and to their youth. But make no mistake, it is not ruining my life, but increasing my understanding.

I feel anger at times through this process, and I was one who posted about a wave of anger. All I have to say is that being able to get those feelings out in text helped me let it go and then having a few kind people remind me that that is okay made me feel like someone had my back and I am grateful to them, thank you.