Yes, I am an active member. The thing I really don't get here is this is a religion. It's principles are that we started out in heaven with our Heavenly Father and now we are left to make our own choices about where we would like to end up when we die all the while not having a for sure answer to any of our questions and having to live by faith that it will all work out. The leaders give us guidance and we either take it or leave it.
Yes, members of the church can be weird and even cruel at times, but it's a belief system. I am just honestly weirded out by this site Of course people are going to make up things about Joseph Smith, Satans' plan is to make us not believe in God, the gospel, even in himself. Of course there is going to be no evidence, this is a religion, and if we knew the exact everything then we wouldn't have faith, we wouldn't be making a spiritual connection. Of course there won't be tons and tons of people into it, because 1. Jesus said the path was narrow and 2. It was never meant to be that way. The plan Satan wanted was, but not Christ's plan.
Our struggle really isn't against flesh and blood. We are fighting spiritual entities who don't want us to go back to our Heavenly Father, we're also fighting a world that loves to sin. We are all supposed to be trying to be true to our eternal selves, not identifying ourselves by hobbies, sexual interests, or anything else. We are eternal spirits. ( Hence the "there are no homosexuals in the church" )

Yes, I have read the CES letter, I have gone on Mormon think etc. and it really only makes sense that this is all the work of Satan steering us off course. The gospel is true. If we pray, do our best, read our scriptures, obstain from worldly nasties at the very least we've lived a good honorable life, and at most we will live with our Father in heaven and be with our families again.

You are not required to believe every single thing, some things take time to understand. Maybe we never will understand, but I know that the principles of living a good life, loving and caring for our children in a 2 parent Mother and Father household, obstaining from drugs, alcohol, and anything that will lead us down a path we shouldn't go, is a good thing.

I know people have had bad experiences and I am not at all discounting those. I have had my share of experiences in the church that have left a bad taste in my mouth, but the gospel is true.

I just want to say that this isn't an attack. I just honestly don't understand why people leave when we know that there are forces trying to get us to leave and we know that the world is full of it.

Admin note - just put a clarification in {} in the Subject:



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 05:56PM by Eric K.

Do you "live by faith" when you buy a house or a car? Or do you test drive, walk-through, check facts, etc. first?

Do you "live by faith" when you decide to marry? Or you do date the person first, test compatibility, see how they fit with you, see how they react in situations, etc.?

I'm betting you don't go "by faith" when you do those things. Or pretty much anything else in the real world.

So why, pray tell, would you "live by faith" when it comes to what is supposedly the most important thing there is: whether or not you are an "eternal" being, and whether or not some group's claims as to how to live "eternally" are true?

Especially when there's more than ample evidence that many of the group's claims aren't just unverifiable -- they're flat-out false?

"Faith" is worthless. The only people who insist you "live by faith" are the ones who don't have any evidence whatsoever to show you their outrageous claims are true. They're trying to get you to be gullible, to just believe, to not think or question or try to find facts.

Oh, and by the way -- you don't "know" there are "forces trying to get us to leave." You have "faith" in that. And as I mentioned, "faith" is worthless.

Enjoy your "faith." I'll stick with reality, honesty, and facts, thanks.

As long as you know the Church is true then you can be sure these people on RfM are on the wrong path. If the Church wasn't true then any of us assimilated into the Church are just wasting our lives being Mormons. So what does it mean to be a true Church? Well it means to be the most honest, truthful, and transparent organization ever. How else are we going to become Gods and Goddesses unless we come to a knowledge of all things? And that gaining of knowledge starts right now.

Is the Church really honest, truthful, and transparent about its history, finances, statistics, doctrines, and everything? If it is then of course its true and worth investigating. But if its ever not true then we surely can't be confident of anything.

I suggest you go read Moroni 10:3-5, put together a list of questions that these silly apostates have, and go to the lds.org homepage and see for yourself whether or not the Church is indeed the most honest, truthful, and transparent organization ever. Then as you ponder these things you can pray:

"Dear Lord, is the Church the most honest, truthful, and transparent organization out there and being straightforward with all of us?"

If you come away from such a prayer thinking "wow I belong to the most honest/truthful/transparent/straightforward Church and the missionaries live in an exciting time where honest investigators will flock to the Church because they will be amazed by its truthfulness on everything" then I believe you will have a stronger testimony.

There are some wolves in sheep clothing within the Church who like to claim that the Church doesn't need to be honest. But such naysayers are only out to destroy the effectiveness of the missionary work. We can do better. We can honestly present the truth about the Church.

Best wishes to you :)

This, as you say, may not be an attack, but it is most certainly a condescension and a perfect example of Mormon arrogance combined with Mormon ignorance. You have looked at all evidence with a preconceived notion that is is wrong before you even started to read it. Your mind has been dialed to Apologetic Mode. So you have made the assumption we were offended or it was too hard.

You believe in the devil? You believe in the devil! Really? That immediately erases any credibility you may have ever had. It's 2017. I swear. Look at your calendar.

All you are saying here is that we shouldn't let the cockroaches in the ice cream spoil our enjoyment of it or notice that the ice-cream itself is rancid and the cone is moldy. The important thing is, it's ice cream! And our trusty leader gave it to us! And we should be grateful, or we won't get any more of the rancid cockroach ice cream.

You are right. You don't understand.

Open minds open doors, especially the Exit door from the Mormon church.

"Everything will be explained in the next life," is the biggest cop out and cover up for a fraud ever.

Sigh... Your post was most certainly an attack. It is amazing how true believers are unable to fathom how words work. You are best suited for Mormonism at this time in your life. When you are willing to be introspective and search where ever truth takes you, we will be here.

Okay, what have we "made up" about Joseph Smith?

That he used a rock in a hat? The church has admitted this.

That he "married" multiple women, someof whom were married to other men? The church has admitted this.

That he "married" a 14 year old girl? The church has admitted this.

That he was a treasure seeker? The church has admitted this.

So what have we "made up" about Joseph Smith?

Your church is a fraud. Of course the church will say we're deceived by Satan. Where's your evidence of that? Statements by church leaders don't count; they've been caught lying too many times, and the scriptures say that Satan is the father of all lies – including theirs. It follows then, that if Satan exists, he's heading up your church.

If you don't understand, it's because you don't want to.

notsureaboutthis says

"You are not required to believe every single thing"

ok, I don't believe smith was a prophet, I believe he was a sexual predatory conman and made everything up as evidence and occam's razor indicates

I'm not so sure you want to [most likely are afraid to] understand , you just keep drinking the koolaid and enjoy that ice cream [as Done & Done so aptly put it]

I'm not about to read TBM drivel on RfM.

Good example? I don't believe in the mormon rule of "being an example" for onlookers. Recovered people are who they are. They're not examples,like actors on a stage, to gratify those who observe them.

God damn right Cheryl!

Dear NotSure...Ponderize this for a moment...

Is it possible that your understanding of how life is intended to be lived comes from people who have set up this 'path' based on misconceptions? In other words, what if there is no almighty anything to set up rules or a 'path' to redemption?

Consider that it may be possible that human relations work well without a dogma requiring obedience to a supreme being or fear of judgment?

Life just may be intended to be lived without fear, guilt or shame. Maybe other humans are willing to tolerate your experimentation with things that are different-as long as you aren't negatively impacting another human life.

It could work, right? Why bind people with arbitrary limits on how they want to live? Why live and deny yourself things that may bring you intense pleasure? Makes no sense, this religion thing. It's punishment for no crime.

No thanks.

So you have this fellow, Joseph Smith, who gave multiple conflicting accounts about what was supposed to be one of the most important events in human history (first vision) but the version he claimed 18 years after the fact is a real doozey so let's just have faith that was the real deal. (See the Church Essay).
Can you imagine a witness in court who would have any credibility after changing his version of the facts multiple times?

Understand that your church/your religion crushed my mom and dad as they were not allowed to witness the wedding of their only daughter. Family oriented? Jesus F Christ....

I seriously doubt that NotSureAboutThis ever returned to check out the responses. It would be too much of a threat to his/her testimony.

It was hidden by one of admins and it was hidden for good reason. I perhaps should of left it as is. Will close when I return home this evening. Cheryl is right.

I am serious when I wrote that this isn't an attack, I just don't understand..I've read the essays and a few are odd to say the least,and I am not saying everyone should believe. Erik K is right, I am where I am supposed to be for now, and maybe in the future I will learn something new and change my view.

I knew about the seer stone,and the marriages. I can't say I understand, but maybe I will someday.

I'm sorry that many of you have had bad experiences, as I stated I have also had a few bad ones over the years, but it's not the people I believe in.

I do believe that there is evil in the world. People committing horrible atrocities and it may or may not be from any entity but humanity, but there is definitely an evil that some would call the devil.

What I'm saying about faith is that it is just that. Some people believe in mormonism, some in judaism, some in hinduism and it's all unproven and all not logical. Faith is really hope.

Yes, I did come back to check the responses, because that's why I posted. I didn't post to upset anyone or judge you. I want to know what's going on. My testimony is fine.

I wouldn't say the religion made your parents miss their daughters wedding. I would say their daughter decided to not have a civil wedding they could attend and then be sealed later. That is not the church's fault.

Maybe I should have phrased my post better.

I Believe that we should all love our families, I believe that living a good clean life can save us from at least the perils of drug addiction, alcohol addiction,STDs,un-wanted babies, broken families etc. I Believe that when we do our best there will be good consequences.

what the hell do you mean that you don't understand? You enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on parents?

yetagain, I don't follow. Why do you think I want to hurt parents?

Read this disgusting line you wrote again:


"I wouldn't say the religion made your parents miss their daughters wedding. I would say their daughter decided to not have a civil wedding they could attend and then be sealed later. That is not the church's fault."

You play "Blame the Victim" very well NotSureAboutThis as all Mormons do. This woman was married in the temple because your jack ass of a prophet made her believe God himself wanted her to. And so she went, despite knowing she would hurt her parents deeply. And YOU turn around and blame her. You disgust me. Mormons are the enemy of the family.

I was raised in the most Mormon family and went on a mission and to BYU. I know your church inside out and everything you are saying is self serving crap because you are gutless to face the truth.

now that I think about it - you have done me a great favor....


SCREW MY SISTER....... I've tried for many years to maintain a relation. No more....

It's the "sorry that many of you have had bad experiences . . ." that makes your post judgmental and condescending and makes it an attack. You are reducing people's well thought out, well resourced, honest exits to nothing more than hurt feelings. You have discounted the integrity and in some cases intestinal fortitude it takes to leave as you insult the intellect and ability to reason. You have insulted those who did what was right and let the consequences follow.

NotSureAboutThis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I Believe that we should all love our families, I
> believe that living a good clean life can save us
> from at least the perils of drug addiction,
> alcohol addiction,STDs,un-wanted babies, broken
> families etc. I Believe that when we do our best
> there will be good consequences.

That's nice. I mostly agree, except that having a cup of coffee (which by the way is GOOD for you), and a beer now and then, isn't alcohol addiction -- and there's no reason to avoid either if you aren't "addicted."

Here's the thing, though: you don't need to be a mormon to love your family, avoid addictions, not get STDs, have a good family, or do your best. You don't need to be a mormon to learn that those things are "good" things to do. Literally billions of people in the world do those things, and aren't mormons.

But to be a mormon, you DO have to claim to believe church stories that are demonstrably false. You DO have to claim to believe the con-man, womanizing pervert Joseph Smith saw god & jesus (which is ridiculous), "translated" gold plates that never existed by sticking his head in a hat and looking at a magic rock, "translated" Egyptian papyrus that he claimed were the "Book of Abraham" but aren't (no question there), and that "god" told him to have sex with 14 year-old girls and married women while he was already married to Emma, and then lie about it constantly. You have to give 10% of your income to a business cult that uses it to buy property, run cattle ranches, and build malls, and does next to nothing "charitable."

So since being a mormon isn't needed for any of those things, and being a mormon requires you to "believe" things that are demonstrably false and ignore things that are disgusting, why be a mormon?

Your 'testimony' isn't based on facts, rational thought, evaluation of evidence, or honesty. It's based on what you were indoctrinated to believe, and on what you WANT to be true. Making it worthless.

Nobody "offended" me. I didn't leave because of 'bad people' (although there are plenty in mormonism). I got my endowments, did a mission, and was obedient and hard-working the whole time -- even having "success" in a country where nobody gets baptized. But I left after coming home from the mission.
Because I learned -- from church sources -- facts.
Facts that showed the church's claims false.
Facts that showed church 'prophets' and 'apostles' had lied repeatedly and without shame.
Facts demonstrable by ample evidence.

Your church isn't true. Evidence clearly shows that.
You can, of course, continue to 'believe' in it, but you do so with the knowledge that you're believing a lie. You're not being honest with yourself or the world. I find that simply sad.

Sorry, but unless you have read everything that I've read and studied everything that I've studied, you've got nothing to offer me.

I was a Mormon for 30 years. I already know your side of the story very well. I was even a sort of amateur apologist for a time.

I'm really curious how active members end up on a site like this. Does your Bishop know?

I'm not attacking anyone's religion. I'm not out there bothering any member of this church whatsoever. I'm here, hanging out with people who understand where I've been, where I am now and where I hope to go.

The only time I'm ever going to run into a Mormon on-line is if they come in here, where I'm minding my own business.

The one thing that I would like you to understand is that your fellow Christians fully believe that they will be reunited with their families in heaven. Many other people who are not Christian believe this as well. So why the need for 10% tithing and a temple ceremony? Only Mormons believe that you *might* be separated from your loved ones.

I personally don't believe that Christianity ever needed to be "restored." I think it got passed down to the current generation just fine.

I am also of the opinion that Joseph Smith had a very poor character, and was not a man to be trusted. What decent man would "marry" a 14, 15, or 16-year old girl, especially when he already had a perfectly good wife? Ask yourself, why would any man do that? It is precisely for the reason you think. Did you know that the average age for a first marriage for women at the time was nearly 23? (This is proven through data available through the auspices of the National Institute of Health.) Not 14. Not 15. Not 16. Not 17. Were all these women poor widows? Or were they instead young, nubile girls that Joseph lusted after? Joseph Smith was interested in Joseph Smith. Not me, not you, not anybody else. And you willingly follow this man? Have you no standards?

The Mormon church has an appalling record of charitable works. It expends something like seven dollars per member per year. How much have you tithed to the church this year? Do you know how it is spent? You do not, because the Mormon church is not about to tell you. In my mind, decent churches fully publish their finances because they have nothing to hide -- not spend millions on the City Creek Center, thousands of acres of land in Florida, and numerous other business and real estate interests. Did you know that the Methodist church (UMC) budgets 25% of member contributions to charity? Ask yourself, which church is more in line with what Jesus would have wanted?

You belong to a very poor excuse for a church.

^^^^^^^

Ya ~ wut summer said ~

I didn't mean to be condescending, I am sorry you've had bad experiences, the reason I even brought it up was because of my own and how that affected me.

I'm not offering you anything, I am asking for what it is that makes you tick.

We hate blatant, self-serving lying. Joseph Smith lied. The LDS church lied. It still lies to this day.

Faith is a good thing. No one can know everything, so belief or faith enter the picture for many people, to one degree or another. But here's the thing. When there is good evidence of something, and a person chooses to believe the opposite, that is not faith. That is either ignorance or blindness. And if a person does not to consider evidence because someone told them they shouldn't read certain things or have certain thoughts, then that is willful blindness. Most of us have been where you are now. I agree with Eric, you are probably where you need be at this point. Spirituality is a journey. I wouldn't presume to know where yours is headed, but I encourage you too look toward it with faithful hopefulness, with open eyes, and a heart that embraces truth wherever it is found.

NotSureAboutThis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am asking for
> what it is that makes you tick.

Truth. I went searching for truth, realizing that one side of the story just didn't cut it.

The truth turned out to be not what I was expecting, but I had the courage to follow through with what I learned.

What Mormons don't realize is that it takes real courage to walk away from everything you've known. I don't think they'll ever get that unless they face such a decision themselves.

By the way, I didn't leave because I'd had a bad time in the Church and no one offended me. I simply wanted the truth and I found it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 08:25PM by Greyfort.

"The thing I really don't get here is this is a religion."


One which insults your intelligence and injures your spirit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 08:25PM by 3X.

GAWD, STAN & PRAYING....irrelevant.

Let me guess, you were born in the church, were taught that it was the only true church, thus never honestly & with a truly open mind, explored any other options, right?

If I am guessing right, you simply accept what you were taught without true questioning (something other than what your bishop tells you), without true comparison (something other than what your bishop tells you) and with limited experience (something other than going to the same church and church functions all the time).

If I am correct, it is no wonder you do not get us. You were never taught the cognitive skills to understand us. You were not taught the cognitive skills to truly evaluate your religion. You were taught a way of thinking that will always concluded that your religion is true, regardless if it is a truly valid conclusion or not.

Most of the people in this group were Mormons and they do understand you. They understand you because they were you. They experienced what it is to be a believer.

You only have the experience of a believer in the LDS, how can you then understand anything other than your singular experience?

I think NotSureAboutThis is struggling and is, ultimately, on his/er way out of Mormonism but is currently in denial.

Probably ill-advised to pick a fight with exmormons if one is trying to strengthen one's testimony. OP's choice of online moniker indicates to me that OP is in a rough spot right now and I think these responses have given OP something to think about.

What can be said to someone professing to not understand, asks to understand, and then refuses to accept answers given?

Absolutely nothing, except, "Be well. Thanks for stopping in. Bye. Come back when your mind is actually open."

Hello Member:
Your problem with talking to this audience is assuming that people here have any belief in your Satan character. Granted, some might, however, I find it absurd that there would be any real concern about some imaginary charcter.
Most of us outgrow the notion of a real Tooth Fairy and a Santa Claus. Same for a Satan personage.

Agreed.

A bit of study also reveals Satan and another character with the name of Lucifer are not even the same "being", as commonly thought. I will suggest such a study.

In any case, it's an imaginary invention.


Edited to fix typos.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 08:59PM by Bruce A Holt.

Satan is one of the things I studied. You can follow the development of that character throughout history, to what it is today. It's clearly man-made.

Yes, Mormonism is a faith tradition. There are many other faith traditions in the world that feel just as strongly that their leaders are leading them to God and yours is leading you, and tempting them, away from God and truth.

Can you honestly say to yourself that if you had not been raised by a Mormon family in a strongly Mormon environment that you would reject the religion in which you were raised to join Mormonism? Now be honest. Isn't it just as likely that if you were raised in, let's say, Iran without any knowledge whatsoever of Mormonism and only knowledge of Islam that you would more than likely be a Muslim?

Now wouldn't you, as a Mormon, like to think that even a Muslim might have the chance to become Mormon if he left his homeland and met other people and somehow found himself among Mormons? Of course you would.

So why don't you open your mind just a tiny little bit and learn more deeply about the faith traditions of other nations and consider for even an instant that YOU might be the one who got things wrong and cannot see the truth about your religion of birth? And maybe, if you were fully informed about your own faith tradition instead of relying only on the faith promoting literature you are encouraged to digest by your leaders while rejecting scholarly and well documented research from reputable sources outside your religious institution, you might just see clearly that you have not seen the full picture of your faith.

Go ahead. Think for yourself for a change. It might surprise you that truth is not the exclusive domain of Mormonism. There are quite a few people in this world who live by, and know, truth and have never even heard of Mormonism.

Dear NotSureAboutThis:

What makes us tick? Impossible answer unless everyone on RFM answers for themselves. Here are male,female, old, very old, young and even teens, current members, resigned members, active and inactive members, some who have had no negative experience in the church, some who have had repeated anguish, some RM some never served.....you get the picture. The vast majority I believe, but have no supporting data, have either a Christian background, were converts or born in the covenant. Some attended church schools, most did not. Born out if this universe of experiences is s rather insatiable desire for facts. And frankly about everything from politics, world religion,child rearing, health, science and current news. Zero tolerance for undocumented, unsubstantiated, non-verifiable items that you say requires faith. My suggestion is to join us-read, research, ponder and think logically concerning yours or any other religion, political stance or opinion. Post if you desire but learn something....everyday is an opportunity. You will learn what perhaps makes some of us tick but likely you will learn what makes you tick and how you can best support your discovery..

Kindest Personal Regards

Gatorman

I'm guessing from your post that since you're an "active member" you believe what the LDS church teaches whether or not you fully understand it. I'm guessing that you believe the story of the first vision and believe that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus in the flesh. I would like to ask you a question. Why do you believe Joseph Smith? Would you believe anyone else who told you they saw God?

Would you believe me if I told you I've seen God and Jesus?

Would it help if I gave you a book to read and pray earnestly about? Would you honestly take the time to read it and pray to know the truth or would you dismiss me as being delusional?

Have you really found truth in the LDS church or are you going through your life believing somebody else's delusion?

I was not raised LDS,though at times I wish I was.

ificouldhietokolob made a really good point about not having to be religious. That is one of my favorite hymns as well.

I don't blindly obey the leaders, as I've said before I take what they say into consideration and decide for myself. They are just people, not gods. I feel the same way about my bishop. He is there to give advice not to rule my life.

CateS I didn't come to pick a fight. I understand why you and the others are defensive, but I came to understand. To me the gospel is a beautiful thing, you are in control of where you will go and who you will be in life. It to me is a true principle for anyone willing to sacrifice carnal nature. So, it seems odd that people wouldn't want to do that, especially if it doesn't pan out,you at least have learned good principles to live your life by.

I don't believe Coffee and tea are bad. I think it's just one of those things where God says to do something and you just do it. In the old testament jews weren't allowed to wear something made with 2 different fabrics, it doesn't make sense, but they did it anyway.

I will close this in an hour. This is why we delete Mormon posts at the start. Cheryl was right about this one. Many active Mormons have found their way out of the church by visiting here and other sites, but they had open minds to facts and were willing to consider they could be wrong about their beliefs. NotSureAboutThis's mind is closed. It is a sad way to live. It is his choice. No sense having him waste more of our time. People wrote very thoughtful and considerate posts for him to ponder.

I believe him because God chose a child. I also believe him because no one would get tarred and feathered for making something up. I believe him because of his fruits. The fruits of his labor are a restored gospel in which believers serve one another as well as others, where we are very very Christ centered. Everything in the church is about Christ. Everything leads to Christ and I don't believe an evil man or liar would want that.

That's enough.... closing.

Cheryl, please forgive me for I have sinned in over ruling one of our admins in letting this guy post.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2017 10:52PM by Eric K.