I don't think I (or we) have ever been in this position with anyone else in my life other than TBM family.

So someone out there—in very practical terms—tell me how you handle people who put you on the spot like this. TBM inlaws are, let's just say, less than enthusiastic in making any effort to travel across the country and visit. In fact, the few times they have, their visits have been short. There is usually an ulterior motive such as they are sightseeing and they happen to pencil in a day with us. They have cancelled visits at the last minute. (Money is not an issue here). We, on the other hand have gone above and beyond in expending our time, effort and money traveling to UT which isn't our favorite vacation place. No one goes out of their way to rearrange their schedules and I have been asked to accompany people to hair appts, etc because they make no effort to plan even when they know months ahead we will be visiting. Last time SIL couldn't make lunch with me and another SIL because she was having her nails done.

This is all fine and good with me. I have learned to accept it for what it is. What I CAN"T deal with is the way these people clearly deny all reality and insist on making comments about how much they miss us and want to see us yada yada. The last few times we've visited we have purposely planned short visits because we've had other family members to visit in other states and other places to go. Instead of being happy that we came at all comments are made about how short our visits are.

I've really had it up to my eyeballs with people who are, for want of a better word, so dang manipulative...or just blind. Anyone with half a brain in their head would realize how outrageously ridiculous it is to go on and on about how much you care about someone and want to see them when your efforts clearly show that is not the truth.

So how do you handle this?

I'm sorry, it sounds really annoying. I've been in similar situations with TBM in-laws.

I have to ignore their nonsense because I'll lose my sanity trying to apply reason to it. Some people have to tell tales in order to maintain an image of themselves as 'caring', 'loving', etc.

If they say how much they miss you and their actions contradict that...is this any different than the abundant BS called Mormon Life?

One of many absurdities in having relationships with TBMs. They lie. To themselves, to others, to their God, to their Bishop, to the government, to...

sometimes the problem is not with other people but with ourself , that is what I always say anyway, for what its worth

hunnydew Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sometimes the problem is not with other people but
> with ourself , that is what I always say anyway,
> for what its worth

I identified what I think the problem is and asked for suggestions on how to respond when confronted with statements that have no merit.

I might be wrong, but I took hunnydew's comment to mean that the inlaws may be projecting their failings on to the OP. It did not come across to me as suggesting that the OP was at fault in any way.

Not! I disagree with hunnytdew. Don't fall for this: the Mormons twist things around, so YOU are at fault. It is never their fault. The Mormons pretend to be the victims, the good guys.

Your in-laws might be like my mother--she always has to complain about something. If everything is close to perfect, she will make something up, and complain about that

You should read "The Mormon Double Bind" when you have time. These people manipulate the situation so you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Years ago, I decided that if I was damned anyway, that I wouldn't do things I didn't want to do. My time is better spent with my family, on my career, resting and exercising, and having fun!

A lot of Mormons like to make others feel inferior and less important. Your SIL's nail appointments are her way of throwing her weight around, and making others bend to her wishes. The competitive nature of the Mormon culture creates all kinds of power struggles and one-upmanship and drama.

If you do come to Utah, take carameldreams's advice, and write them off as irrational and delusional. Roll your eyes, and say, "There they go again."

Please, do not take their rudeness personally--this is just the everyday rude behavior that I observe in Utah Mormons, in general.

Just maybe they are getting their hair and nails done to impress YOU! Give them the benefit of the doubt. Mormon adults are like little children, so don't expect them to be socially savvy. Don't expect them to be attentive to you.

In fact, I do better with Mormon family, if I don't expect anything from them, at all. Conversation is shallow. Talk about the weather. Don't expect love or empathy. Don't give them too much personal information. Keep it light, and have your own fun. For example, go off by yourself on a walk around the neighborhood, or a hike, go see a movie, meet your friends for lunch, etc.

If you get only two weeks vacation a year--ask your spouse and children what they would like to do. You deserve a fun vacation, like everyone else!

Have you tried "We really miss you too, so we wanted to invite you down to visit us for (insert activity) at our house?" They can either agree or back down the guilt trip. I feel ya, our family is similar, mad if we're not there or don't care much if we are.

Yes. Tried that with no success. It's more like you say. Thry can't be bothered but want to pretend they are.

OP, stop going above and beyond if you're truly getting crumbs from these people. Why waste time and money? Doesn't sound like it's the time of your life when you are with them.

Again, I encourage you to NOT try to find rationality in them. They argue with reality and apparently, lie. Write em off as delusional. If they cancel, oh well. If they have brief moments that are convenient for you, then fine. But don't expect these fairy tale believers to act rationally. Save yourself the grief!

'There they go again!' you could say with a smile. Don't take the bait. Be willing to be blamed and gossiped about. You likely are already.

Why bother? There is no reason to spend your time and money on people who couldn't care less that you are there.

Don't waste your time trying to come up with a good response. If you aren't there, there is no reason to have any response at all.

You don't live in Utah. Don't go. I am sure that you could spend your time doing something enjoyable instead.

Do not tolerate behavior from in laws that you would not tolerate from anyone else in your life.

Some people have a low tolerance for spending time with family. They love you, but it's in the abstract. Hence the statements that they miss you, and your visit is too short -- they know what is culturally expected, but they just can't do that.

So I think your short visits are perfect. The women in your in-law's family seem to like their beauty rituals, so perhaps you can plan to do some of them together -- nails, hair, spa day, shopping, or what have you. They might prefer that to lunch.

And if you need to keep yourself sane in such an atmosphere, come up with some zingy retorts that you can pull out when needed, "Oh, bless her heart. She would be getting her nails done if it were the second coming." Then innocently watch for the reaction.

My family would only visit if they needed a free place to stay. I'd only visit them out of duty.

Finally, I decided to do whatever was convenient and acceptable to me. It doesn't pay to try overly hard to please anyone who won't cooperate and who is never satisfied.

Accept that the mo family are not well, and lead unhealthy lifestyles. They are addicted to and consumed by a cult, and there's no healthy way or healthy reason to pander to the addiction.

We know that it's addiction; we know their drug of choice. We know it's self-destructive, and destroys relationships. Thosre relationships that they do have are functional only to the point that they are not mormon (addiction-based). It's highly likely that they numb the pain with SSRIs or SNRIs, and their judgements and choices are off kilter. Their lives are consumed by the chaos of feeding the addiction, and they likely pay attention to or tend to each other no better than they pay attention to or tend you.

You can choose to think of and treat them like a date whom you expect to be a no-show.

"We will be in UT on the Tenth, and plan to tour the nnn. Hope to see you there."

'We're taking the kids to the Grand Canyon in three months. We'll leave the X location at 8 AM on the nth to begin our tour. Hope to see you there."

"You are welcome to join us at [the nice restaurant] in our home town for a holiday meal. Our reservation is at 6 on the nth and the restaurant phone number is xxx-xxxx. Hope to see you there."

And so on. It's often referred to as a "loving detachment."

Be firm in your offers. Write it down, and don't be flexible to the point where you must change your flights, reservations or dates off of work. Your travel plan has a reasonable window of opportunity for them, ample time for them to make arrangements, and it is their choice. You've travelled to their city; if they don't choose to drive across town to meet you, it's beyond your control.

It's habit to extend yourself, to pick up the phone to reach out, to send that email. If you do reach out, do it in a manner that doesn't set yourself and your family up for being abused. It is your choice to let their choices be their own, or keep an unjustified expectation that they will change their behaviors just for you.

You're going to be in UT for other reasons or family...? Show up at the outing and enjoy yourself with your family; be pleasantly surprised if the invitees actually show up. Don't tell the kids that they are "supposed" to come; say the truth - they might show up, but that it's not likely, no matter how the invitees gushed at the opporunity.

It will feel really weird not to drive across town yourself, and it will likely hurt. That is the pain of change, the pain of letting go of control. It is missing the family you thought they were, instead of the one they actually are.

Family connections don't always go out with a bang. They can go quietly, no drama, and maybe you don't want that. Maybe you struggle to stay in touch, no matter the costs to you. You can't control what they want, nor is it your job to define what that should be.

Addicts blame, manipulate, lie to and lie about their enablers. In their minds, it is *always* the enablers' "fault," no matter what "the problem is," or what "went wrong." The addict will lay blame on the enabler, because the addiction comes first.

The only healthy move is to not enable them. If you engage them with other expectations, also accept that you are inviting the abuse that they "worship."

None of it is your fault, and it is one of the roughest emotional hurdles in recovery. It's not healthy to blame the addict, either, but as long as they don't fight to leave their chosen abyss, it must be your choice not to stare into it.

Letting go of their choices will be a huge weight of responsibility off of you, one that really never was yours to carry.

Be healthy, and I wish you well. You are recovering.

Thanks abysmal.

We've actually done many of the things you suggest in the past. I

It's still so frustrating though.

I know you may not like what I say but someone has got to give the TBM perspective so here it goes. If I offend you on this then maybe you will say "that does it ... these people at RfM are so offensive ... I'm quitting RfM and going back to Church" and then I can brag about my re-activation success on one of those "less active" lesser beings to everyone during my first-Sunday-of-the-month monolouge to the whole congregation as I flood the microphone with tears in order to bring the Spirit in so all can be edified and forget about their growling tummies as they fast & send in FO money to help subsidize the poor & the needy, such as the City Creek tenants.

So these relatives of yours happen to belong to the one and only true time consuming Church on the earth and they are busier than bees. Their leaders at all levels, from the Deacons Quorum Secretary & Home teachers up to Ward/Stake/regional/general leaders have been edifying their souls with sacred directives from God 3 hours/week (and more if they watch the devotionals on the BYU channel or other places) to get busier than ever in building up the glorious Kingdom. And then here comes you, a person at the bottom level of society,

So why are you at the bottom level of society? Well at the top are the good Mormons and then the semi-active Mormons. Next come the never-Mormons. And at the bottom are the apostates. These are the folks who felt the good feelings (such as when I flood the mic with tears with my long monologue at my F&T meeting) which the Brethren teach is the Spirit testifying that the Brethren are who we must obey. Well of course it must be the Spirit because they said so and I have to obey. Well anyway even though these apostates felt that good feeling then for some reason they get a "maybe Joseph Smith made it all up" thought in their mind and they end up being apostates. Its amazing how people will go read Church History and then get such thoughts in their head. I'd dive into reading Church History more deeply myself but with all the callings/responsibilities heaped upon us and my fear of doubts entering in there is no way that I or any other TBM should ever think about thinking about diving in deeply on Church History. However I've heard plenty of sermons about those doubters who get locked into the chains of that super evil Satan and thus I need to have strong boundaries with them and remember that they are at the bottom level of society. And since the Brethren allow such sermons to be taught then they must be true, though we're all way too obviously busy with callings/responsibilities to actually spend any real time getting to know real apostates. Thus its just easier to stereotype, especially if we get good feelings that we believe is the Spirit telling us that our stereotyping is correct.

So what is the way for a TBM to spend their vacations? Focus first on the top levels of society with every thought/activity while on vacation. Every 6 months the Ensign magazine has a new centerfold and there is nothing more important than those top 15 pictures. Oh how lucky their wives/children must be to have those great seers in their families :) I could go on all day praising their glorious names and showing awe at their marvelous souls as we just feel towards them 24/7 like teenagers do to their favorite music stars. If I'm off visiting an apostate relative out-of-town on the east coast and then while in my hotel room if a glorious sermon from one of those 15 comes up on the BYU channel then its a no-brainer to hear that glorious sermon, especially if its on some important topic like tips on how to be more committed and obedient to the Brethren :) As time permits it would be nice to spend some thoughts/time on lesser beings such as the Seventies, other church members, spreading the gospel with the nevermos in the east (as once they hear about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon then maybe they'll be baptized while on the vacation so I'll talk to them everywhere as we don't have as many nevermos in the areas around Utah), and doing other activities on the vacation. Oh I almost forgot that if there is any time leftover that I might think about dropping in briefly to visit the apostate relative. But if that were to happen then I would need to be careful to not stay too long so their apostasy plague doesn't infect me and then I get led astray. And besides I'm especially concerned that they are probably raging alcoholics because they drink a glass of wine biannually or they consume very evil substances like green tea & thus they could be terrible influences on the younger members of the TBM family who are still in the early stages of having their thinking/brains correlated to be good TBMs.

So what to do if an apostate relative visits Utah? Well I got to keep on a happy face, even though I know they are diseased with the plague of apostasy. Sure they are at the bottom rung of the human race but they still are humans. So I guess I could spend as little time with them as possible. But if I do spend time with them I got to show them that I'm busy, happy, and focused on the most important things in life. Then maybe they will want to be re-assimilated into the glorious gospel. Did I mention anything about the glorious Brethren? The BYU channel might have a sermon being broadcasted when the apostate comes so I'll have to watch that to charge up my spiritual batteries & put on some apostate repellent.

Gosh its so hard to deal with apostate relatives that don't fit the mold. How to do this though is the same as with anything - I need to follow what the Brethren have taught us to do on this topic. They get to do the thinking and we get to do the obeying. What a marvelous gospel doctrine we have :)

Oh my.

Honest TBM you turned my anger into a smile! Thanks so much for your reply.

not

Some people just have bad manners! Mormons have their own set of manners that are almost always outside the norm.
So what to do? How to handle their very intrusive World View that includes everyone and everything?

You can limit your time with them. Control the visit by having them for short periods in your home. Set some boundaries by directly saying there no religious talk in my home. Or more indirectly, changing the subject. Or meet at a neutral place, like a park, and ignore the religious talk. Talk about other subjects.

You changed your mind about your religious beliefs and World View. They didn't. They have the same rights to their beliefs and World View as you do. They are just different now. People often have a hard time dealing with change.

One tactic that works very well is humor. Find ways to see the humor in human foibles. And have FUN. Be upbeat and pleasant and refuse to talk about differences of opinions on any subject.

I have many LDS family members and friends that I associate with in different ways.
I want to keep these relationships so I am kind and friendly and talk about everything but religion or politics.

One of the things I remember that my maternal grandfather, that I called Pop or Dad, taught me was this:
"If you want to keep a friend, don't discuss religion or politics."

That's personal stuff - opinions - and in my view, it's best to keep both out of the relationship, as much as possible.

Oooo! I can do this one!

So I live 1000 miles away from my only two TBM relatives, my dad and stepmonster. My mom, until recently because of health issues, made a point to fly here and visit me at least once a year. My sister always had money and small children issues but has managed to visit me a few times since I moved away. Okay twice. In 25 years.

Eeehhhhhnyway. :-D

So. The Dad and the Stepmonster. They are always saying P-A crap about how much they miss me and it's been too long. I've explained this to my dad in detail. We are a lot alike and I have no reservations about just spelling things out for him. If he asks, I do not sugarcoat my answers.

I have told him that I am treated like I don't matter in our family and that it's not easy or cheap to visit. On average, it'll cost me around $1200-1500 by the time you factor in air fare, dog kennel, car rental (because nobody can ever be bothered to pick me up and haul me around for a week or whatever, or drop me off at the airport in a timely manner), and hotel room. Plus burning however many precious vacation days.

That's right. I have to get a damn hotel whenever I visit family because not one of those motherfuckers has a guest room or a pull out couch or anywhere to put a guest. (Mom is a hoarder and a crazy cat lady and my asthma lungs cannot handle the stench of cat pee in her house -- I can't even go inside there.) Anyway, it's not worth my time or my money to spend $1500 for a week of travel only to be treated like shit the entire time, ignored, dismissed, diminished, patronized, infantilized. It's infuriating, so my annual visits have gradually trickled down to "every few years or so, give or take," which means, if I have some other reason to go there, I MIGHT call ahead and let family know I'll be in town and make plans to meet them for a meal or stop by or something. Or I might just blaze into town, do my thing, and right back out again and never say a word. I have a lot of bucket list items yet, so I'd rather invest my time and money into checking those things off rather than waste it all on these superficial visits that do nothing but upset me and worry them.

So I either ignore these "Oh we miss you; it's been too long" comments, or I just agree. "Yep, it sure has!" Sometimes, I get annoyed and just say, "Well the roads and the planes go in both directions; just let me know when you want to visit and I'll make up the guest room bed." That last one is a nice little zing because that clearly says "I keep a nice clean place available for guests but you selfish assholes have to cram your junk into every square inch of available space."

This summer, I am going up there for an Indy car race with my sister & her family. Because we're camping and we might want Dad's help setting up the campsite, I've agreed to let my sister mention that I'll be up there. He doesn't always come to the race because it's on Sunday, but he probably will if he knows it'll be the only chance he'll get to see me in like I dunno, five years or something. My stepmonster hates racing (which is why he quit) so she won't turn up. And my dad is always 100 times cooler and more pleasant to be around without her. We kinda like him by himself. He's funny and sarcastic and keeps his churchy shit to himself. My sister and I are both covered in tattoos and drink and I smoke and he never says a word about it to us. Mostly because I think he probably realizes we don't care what he thinks.

Dogzilla, <Well the roads and the planes go in both directions; just let me know when you want to visit and I'll make up the guest room bed." That last one is a nice little zing because that clearly says "I keep a nice clean place available for guests but you selfish assholes have to cram your junk into every square inch of available space."<

LOL...too funny. I planned on using that first line next time they mention it.

not

"What I CAN"T deal with is the way these people clearly deny all reality and insist on making comments about how much they miss us and want to see us yada yada."

The best time to say something is in the moment. But if you are like me, you think of the best response a day later.

So I started thinking of things that were likely to come up before going into a potentially awkward situation with TBMs. You can do that, because they are fairly predictable. Right?

But I'd seriously reconsider going to Utah at ALL, under the circumstances. Why bother? Perhaps if they mention how much they miss you, just spout off something like "That's funny, the last time I went all the way to Utah, everybody was too busy to spend any time with me."

And as far as scheduling with people who cancel plans? I know someone who had a friend who did that all the time. Finally, she stopped making plans with that friend. She told her friend they could talk on the phone, and if she wanted to go do something on the spur of the moment, they could just go do it. But she wasn't going to make plans. They were able to continue being friends, without the resentment that came from the disrespect of feeling like the backup plan if nothing else came up.