I posted something similar over a year ago and some things have changed with my scenario, so I wanted to get some additional advice.

A little about me: Married; 3 children (Daugter at BYU, Daughter in High school and a son in grade school); I'm an active member; I served a mission; My family and my wife's family are active; I live in Utah County; I've been an active non believer for years.

I'm just looking for some advice on potential next steps. I've told a handful of people that I don't believe and have received mixed responses. The person I have not told is my wife. She knows I have doubts and we have talked from a high level but no specifics. Lately some of our friends have left which has spurred some conversations; however I've never told her I absolutely don't believe and why. I did recently see that she has the CES letter open on her phone browser which is probably a great time to tell her but i'm just a chicken! I'm happily married and love my wife with all my heart. I guess i'm just afraid. Knowing she has seen the CES letter tells me she must be open to research and I would be ecstatic to find out she is also a non believer but I just don't think so. I do think she has questions but is a bit in denial. I say this because i'm pretty liberal. I drink coffee every day and will have the occasional drink and she has to be able to smell the coffee or alcohol but she never says anything and will even make comments to make me think that she lagitalatly does not know or is in denial. I know she is afraid to disappoint her father, which I get and could lend to some of her denial or willingness to find the truth if she hasn't already. My challenge is I've seen and heard of way to many scenarios where people get ostracized by friends and family and even had their spouse leave them. I'll choose to be an active non believer till I die if that's what I have to do to keep my wife and kids!! I'm becoming anxious to really talk to her, but I want the result to be positive! If anybody has a crystal ball or any advice at all, I'll be grateful!! Thanks.

"The Active Non-Believer"

It may be a case where you both are close to the same page and one won't tell the other due to both having the same fears.

Still go slow, moving too fast is the biggest mistake of all.

Maybe start with the obvious stuff. Mention something like "Hey sweetheart. I'm really uncomfortable with the fact that in primary we teach the kids that its was OK for Nephi to kill because he heard God telling him to. Isn't that the same justification that ISIS uses or any crackpot that murders because of extreme religious belief? Why would we ever, ever teach that to a child?"

Or ask her if she knows who Emanuel Swedenborg is. (The guy who invented the Celestial kingdom for real decades before Joseph plagiarized it) If you can put a crack in the prize behind door number three that could facilitate other foundation destruction.

Ask her about what she thinks of threatening a 14 year old child with marriage (LDSessays) due to an angel with a sword threatening Joseph and what did that do to little Helen's supposed Free Agency?

And what about the dominoes of threats? An angel threatens you and you threaten a child? Is that how Jesus works or is that something else, possible a sinister something else?

You never know. She may be closer than you think.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2017 08:34PM by AmIDarkNow?.

I tried to stay active as a non-believer but after a few months it gets too difficult to live a lie.

Everyone has their own way of "coming out", and each marriage is different, but generally doing it slowly is better. Letting her know how devastated you are by finding out the church isn't what you thought it was helps her know you are not wanting to leave. As she asks questions you can study together. Through it all she needs to know you are the same person and that the marriage comes first.

There is no perfect way to do it, but you can't live the life of a pretender forever.

Keep emphasizing that you love her!

Honestly is very important in marriage. However, with TBMs, honesty takes second place to the church. I'd tread very lightly here. I told my wife on a trip home from the temple that I no longer believed. I started WWIII.

So, what you can do is to read the newspaper or watch the local evening news together. In Utah, as you know, Mormonism gets a lot of attention, so listen for any events that dovetail into church.

If a temple is dedicated, ask your wife what she things about it. Then respond gently like, "A concern I have is that so many temples are being built at the expense of helping others." Something along this.

Or, from today's Trib, "Did you read about the church and the problems with the buildings in New Zealand? What do you think about the guy who can't get a temple recommend because he put pressure on the church to save the buildings?"

You get the idea. If she's open and talking, do A LOT of listening. If she asks your views, gently start introducing the notion that you have quite a few questions about the church. Maybe you can invite her to explore some topics from the church essays (Susan posted the link above).

Gradually, talk about how hard it must be for those who can no longer believe. See where this goes.

From your post, it sounds like she may be questioning, but please go very slow. Very best wishes, The Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2017 08:45PM by BYU Boner.

Making the choice whether to follow a spouse or follow the Brethren is one of the easiest decisions to make. Of course we follow the Brethren. They do the thinking. We do the obeying.

Well put. It is important to note to what extent Mormons have recently changed fundamentals of Christianity--and of Mormonism, for that matter. The most easy to indicate is how Jesus & Co. say that the first law of heaven is love. The Mormons recently changed this to say that the first law of heaven is obedience. It's easy to see why they did this.

Yes, Monson & Bros. do the thinking, and we do the obeying. Now, those are two principles that dovetail nicely, aren't they?

Since you know she looked at the CES letter, just start by asking her what she thought about it. Her answer should give you a good clue as to where she is. If she says it is just a bunch of anti-Mormon lies, you will know she isn't ready to go any farther. If she responds by saying she can't believe in Mormonism anymore, then you are home free. If her answer is that some things in there bothered her, then ask her what those things are, and offer to help her explore those issues.

She is not the only one in denial. You're afraid of being open/ honest/ up front with her.

You're scared to leave tscc and scared to talk to your dw or be honest with yourself. Where does that leave you? Right where you started. Nowhere. Square one.

You don't sound very anxious to talk with her. You don't sound anxious to be truly happy. You don't seem anxious to move on.

Talk!

Good luck. Open up. Stand up. Live up.

Test the water first. Just ask her questions about the letter. Ask questions and wait for her to answer. You don't have to tell her anything yet.

Many woman are concerned about polygamy. Some are bothered by how women, children, and gays are treated. Doesn't abuse of priesthood power ever cause comment?

The mormon church has mind-stopper concepts which combat many of the flaws. That can be a problem.

Worried about polygamy in this life? Answer: Those mormon splinter groups don't have anything to do with the real church.

Worried about polygamy in the CK? Answer: There will likely be a choice in heaven. Or, We'll have more perfect understanding after we die.

Upset about mistreatment of women? Answer: Women have compensations for not having the same rights as men. It's all part of the plan.

The answers are lame, but after constant repetition, they are fully absorbed and do stop members from following an idea to its logical conclusion.

Find out what mormon ideas bother your wife and get her to think past the mind-stoppers and open up to real conversations.

It's a marriage--not a hostage situation.

Religion should not be an issue in a loving marriage.

You are an individual, and you have a right to not attend, and not pay money and not support something you don't believe in.

This is 2017 America, and you are an adult.

...and people still wonder if it's a cult! Of course it's a cult.

I feel sorry for your children, who are now hostages to the cult, along with you.

Be kind and loving to your family--but, please, offer them MORE than just Mormon gruel. Life is beautiful! Learn how to love unconditionally. They need to have a father with integrity, whom they can respect. Share the Truth with them! Be real with them. Tell them "no more tithing". Then go play golf, or go on a hike for a few hours on Sunday. Better yet--stay home and fix your family a nice barbecue Sunday dinner. That's how my husband persuaded me to leave the church.

It's not always so simple. If someone absolutely believes, or even kind of believes, having a spouse leave the church could mean the loss of salvation to them. It will be painful to them, but they are going to end up choosing salvation. This stuff really does split families up. Yu can't even make an appeal about it wrecking families, because they will quote Natthew chapter 10.

It may not happen.

I was a member of the church for 17 years. I met and married the sweetest guy in the world at church. Gradually, I started having issues with the church. Their dogmatic insistence on conformity. Their rigid responses to sincere questions. I started backing away.

I found RfM and learned that other people were going through the same kind of doubts I was having. That's one thing about the church - you simply cannot discuss the doubts that come creeping in. I learned more about the church from RfM than I EVER did from the church itself.

My DH was BIC, RM, and an unquestioning believer. He was torn up about the gradual waning of my faith, and devastated when I resigned. But he quit attending church, because to him, our marriage was more important.

We went to other churches - mainly, a liberal Presbyterian church, similar to the one I was raised in. DH was exposed to religious ideas that were astonishing to him. Like the idea of putting a need out there: We need volunteers to help with the picnic three weeks from next Saturday. There is a sign-up sheet in the narthex." (He was surprised that they ASKED people, rather than ASSIGNING them.)

He deeply respected the depth of learning of the young minister to the church, including his knowledge of ancient Greek and Hebrew. I had studied some modern Greek, but ancient Greek was far more complex, and way over my head. I am a language person by training and inclination, but that one was beyond me. (We are both language people, DH and me, so anyone who ventures in languages that are way beyond us earns our respect.)

We no longer attend church at all, and DH doesn't seem bothered by it. We just enjoy being together.

I have very limited mobility these days, and if there is much walking involved, I have to use a wheelchair. DH doesn't mind. If we go shopping for something, I am able to put the brakes on the chair, get up for a little while and look over the things we are shopping for, and then gratefully sink down into the chair again. He doesn't mind wrangling it into and out of the car.

I am eternally grateful that he finally came to see the church as a sham, made up by a con man. He feels sorrow at the loss of what he once thought was a good thing, but he is past that now.

I know that feeling of loss. My wife joined the church before we got married and then decided it was ridiculous. I held out for a number of years, but eventually fell inactive and then moved to China. Here I encountered an ex Mormon. I had conversations with him about frustrations with the church, and the supposedly provable principles that by following them we had both pretty much proven false. I started researching old issues I had with church history, and without the interferience of the church confirmed my worst fears. The loss was a very deeply felt one. It was such a beautiful lie.

You might mention so-and-so's kid left the church and they disowned him. What does she think of that?

Turns out Mormons don't really believe in free agency. Most are not happy if we don't choose the "right and true" way. And there are mean of coercion like shaming and threatening to disown or divorce or whatever.

Might as well put a gun to their heads and tell them they are free to choose, but will end up with a bullet.

Was thinking a while later you could tell her you read of a wife who left her husband because he quit church. And ask what she thinks of that.

I am a bit older and also live in Utah county. Your story is so similar to mine.
I thought I knew my wife and started with small steps.
Polygamy, stone in the hat, city creek .
she divorced me so fast I never knew what hit me.
The power of the Cult was no match.

tread lightly

Ask her sometime if she wouldn't mind reading the essays on LDS.org. Just tell her that you wouldn't mind that, so long as you are both practicing Mormonism, you both be well-versed in the history of LDS origins, because that should be a basic requirement. (You can't search on them through LDS.org, but they're available on this site and elsewhere.) They touch on uncomfortable subjects to the church, and the church has couched them in a way that makes them seem less distasteful, but they remain pretty distasteful, even in that form. It should get a gear or two turning.

Having said that, my own DW is aware of them, but refuses to read them, half-way believing that it is anti-Mormon info sneaked into the church website. In short, she doesn't completely trust even LDS.org. I find that weird.

This is definitely hard stuff. But personally I think honestly in relationships is the KEY to a healthy lasting relationship. Hiding your true feelings (your true self) and not being able to openly discuss your feelings and thoughts.. well then you are role playing. And role playing is something that ALL Mormons are VERY good at. It's what we learn from day one. It's something I still struggle with in my relationships. Not to fall into the role playing trap. It feel EASIER to 'keep the peace' by pretending, hiding, going about one's business as if nothing is happening internally when actually there is a tornado brewing!

Eventually you won't be able to contain this and it may erupt and that is usually never pleasant.

It's very possible to love someone very deeply but not be able to share your intimate self with. But that is NOT good for YOU to feel you can not be your true self with the person you love so. Doesn't she love you equally? If so, she should be able to handle your feelings. If you tell her with sincerity and honesty and with love (not blaming or accusing or angry), you should get a kind reception. If you CANNOT get that, well then maybe her love for YOU is not what you thought OR maybe that is what you fear, that she doesn't love you UNCONDITIONALLY.

Mormons are TERRIBLE at loving unconditionally, it's not something they really understand at all (though they give PLENTY of LIP SERVICE to it!).

Maybe you are afraid she is too far gone as a TBM, too brainwashed,.. that she'll reject you because of your honesty (your desire to leave the cult)..

It's very hard and clearly you fear rejection from her, your family, her family, etc.. It is HARD! But it is ultimately HARDER denying yourself a voice, honoring your own thoughts, caring about how YOU feel and not feeling you can be truly intimate (sharing your thoughts and feelings no matter what they are) with someone with whom you are supposed to be the MOST INTIMATE.

I feel your pain I do. I have 'lost' friendships, family relationships, partners, because of my being honest with them.. but eventually I've learned to see they were NOT true friendships, relationships etc.. And once I liberated myself I was able to find someone I could REALLY be intimate with, whom doesn't every judge me for what I think. Sometimes my thoughts change (that SHOULD be natural!) and I tell him those too. Still I am not judged for it. I am not condemned because I am just hear on this earth as a human trying to figure shit out! I am accepted through my struggles, confusion, pain, angst.. all of it! And what I have learned is that we ALWAYS ONLY grow CLOSER when we talk with each other about what is going on with us…

The times I forget to do this and decide to 'keep the peace' or the 'status quo' and remain silent, is ALWAYS ALWAYS destructive to our relationship.. the tensions thicken, we are courteous to each other and even say we love each other, but we are not really present with one another and don't have the understanding we have when we have our intimate talks. Then we start to misinterpret the others mode, feel it's our faults, internalize everything.. NOT GOOD!

Again this is something I still trying to unlearn (taught to me by Mormonism) to stop falling into role playing habits. To pay attention to how I am feeling, check in with myself.. ask myself what it is I need (something I used to NEVER DO!) and then understand that I can express those feelings and needs to my partner. That he is there to support me, he is not the enemy. Often after we air our feelings and vent a bit, we see how it's not all so bad after all and the feelings that were eating away at us subside.

Repressing feelings leads to all kinds of bad things, ill health, stress, worry, and really it just all ends up out of proportion inside of yourself when it's bottled up like that..

I agree not to erupt on her like an angry volcano! But CALMLY tell her what you are feeling. Find a good time where you can talk alone and not be interrupted. Be genuine with her. I personally as a female always appreciate this from male partners.. Not to stereotype but men tend to keep a tighter lid on things, since they are taught to be stoic by our society. I hate it when my partner is clearly going through something and says he's FINE when I probe!! Then I imagine all kinds of terrible things and think something he is mad at ME! So I always feel relieved if he just tells me. So he's learning too the he can do that. It's something we are both learning. how to get out of this habit of behavior, to suck it up and get on with things!

Hope this helps you! Best of luck!

To anb99:

I've got to ask, are you still home teaching, attending priesthood meetings, doing you callings, and telling everybody you "believe the church is true?" If you are, all I can say is WOW.

Have you ever considered that your children might be non-belivers and they only pretend because Mom and Dad are TBMs?

All I can say is try honesty and sincerity, at least its a start.

The truth is often "the elephant in the room". It's very difficult trying to tip toe around it or to walk on egg shells. I used to get on my husband's case whenever he would say we can't afford to pay tithing. I told him he was an infidel and that this was not what I had signed up for. Looking back now, I can't believe what a jerk I was to him. This is what a cult does: it turns people, especially family, against each other and it's because we allow it to do so. Speaking as one from that side of the fence, I agree with a lot of what everyone has said. Be absolutely sincere with her. Ask her what she thinks about some of the CES letter, and tell her that you really enjoy and value what her opinions are on different subjects; and really mean it. That would help to soften her so that she won't be stubbornly digging her heels in.