My 15-year-old daughter said that her grandfather, my FIL, said that I have not been a good influence on my wife since we got married.

The ironic thing is, I was pretty TBM myself for 17 of the 19 years we've been married. It's only been the last couple years that I've started to see a lot of cracks on my shelf. Even now I'm still "active." I still attend to keep the family peace. And I haven't discussed my concerns with my in-laws.

They are, in fact, a pretty major reason I've come to disdain a lot of Church culture. They are so extreme, so intolerant, so sheltered in their bubble.

It doesn't really bother me that they don't think highly of me, because in my view, they are pretty wack-o. But was does really bother me is that they are apparently actively trying to undermine me to my kids.

Family ... isn't it about toeing the Church line?

The first thing that comes to mind is what a coward he is. He can't even say what he thinks (non-thinks) of you to your face. He has to go through a female child.

At the moment, I can't even imagine how you might have responded to your daughter, but this much I'm sure of - that relationship woild be o.v.e.r. for the next three years. She's a minor, and at an age where she needs to trust her father more than any other man.

I'm thinking of you, and wish you well.

Bad-mouthing you is the first step in Parental Alienation.
They apparently want to turn your children against you. This is egregious emotional abuse.

You need to put a stop to it.

Sounds like it's time to turn off visits with the Ultra TBM In-Laws UNLESS they are in your presence and have some control.

This is a clear indication that they cannot be trusted to respect you or your parenting.

I'd be livid.

Your FIL is a piece of shit! What type of man discusses his daughter's marriage with her daughter? I'm glad your daughter saw through his manipulation and talked with you about it.

My older kids have also told me their grandparents have said things to them about me. My response is to tell the kids I appreciate that they told me, but it wouldn't be right for me to be disrespectful back. As my kids have gotten older, they've seen the manipulation and have realized that many pressures on my marriage have come from my wife's TBM family. Best wishes, Boner.

I would have a talk with him or, even better, let your husband do it.If hendoesnt knock it off, he doesnt see the kids or doesnt see them unsupervised.

Sounds like your daughter is not an idiot. I wouldn't make a big scene. Just use as an opportunity to educate on the animal nature of humans and laugh it off.

Good to not react to everything people say - there's a lot more crap out there about you than you want to know - that's what people do.

I agree with Boner. Your FIL is a POS! In my opinion, nothing on this earth is lower than an adult brainwashing and manipulating a child to further their own agenda.

I may be 100% wrong on this. I confront your FIL and let him know that his negative opinion of you, is not to be shared with your children.

I made the decision that my Mormon in-laws are not allowed to visit with my child unless I am present. They have already started with the Mormon child brainwashing.

I refuse to stand by and let a daughter of mine be subjected to this BS. If I upset those in-laws or even my wife for having this approach...so be it!

Does your wife know? Would she be willing or able to tell her parents they are out of line and to cease their comments or be prepared to see less of your kids?

Be proactive with your kids and suggest responses they could make if it happens again. "I don't like it when you say bad things about my dad. Please don't do it again."

This thread inspired me to Google "parental alienation," and one of the hits was a wiki page.

At first I thought that possibly it didn't apply, because the term applies almost exclusively to divorcing or divorced parents. I kept reading, and I'm sorry to bring it up, but would rather do that than not raise a flag.

Sometimes the offending parent enlists the help of family members in his or her cause. I'm not saying that your wife is considering divorce, but consciously or unconsciously may be contributing to your FIL's interference. She may have expressed "wishes" or "pain" about you that inspired FIL to feel free to intrude.

That won't matter to your daughter. Damage a parent is damage to her. Maybe it's a discussion with your wife, first, so that you don't "go in" blind.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation

angry! ... Makes an important point. Please, play attention to what is going on.

I brought it up because I have seen how it is done and dealt with it when I was a Court Appointed Monitor for Supervised Visitation in custody battles.

Parental Alienation is pernicious. I have seen it many times in LDS families when one parent leaves the church.

Yes, it's seen mostly in divorce especially over custody of the children. It's also often apparent in LDS families when they circle the wagons when one parent leaves the church and the others are hell bent on saving the eternal family for the Celestial Kingdom. They must, at all costs, keep the "evil sinner" that is now following Satan, out of their family and destroy any respect of love the children have for that parent.

At the time the books on this subject were written, (Richard A Gardner in the 1980's)this behavior specifically in more fanatical religious families was not even considered. Not must Mormons engage in Parental Alienation!

angry! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sometimes the offending parent enlists the help of
> family members in his or her cause. I'm not
> saying that your wife is considering divorce, but
> consciously or unconsciously may be contributing
> to your FIL's interference. She may have
> expressed "wishes" or "pain" about you that
> inspired FIL to feel free to intrude.

I suspect that your wife may be the heavyweight here. She could cure this problem.

>>They are so extreme, so intolerant, so sheltered in their bubble.

Your FIL made that comment because you are not exactly like them. Which is a good thing, right? The grandparents are entitled to their opinions about your marriage, but it is inappropriate to share them with your minor children. This is willful interference with your family. I would speak to your spouse about your concerns, and have her set a boundary with her parents.

When my youngest son was 4 (now 29), my parents came to visit. My Dad spent the time behind my back convincing my son I was evil because I drank beer. He told me that Grandpa told him to say that to me. Cut off talking to my Dad for 16 years. TBM's are so loving. Not controlling at all. Just saying...

It's awful. I'm sorry.

I know that my granddaughter's other grandparents (ultra TBM) badmouth my son to her. It broke my heart when my son said "I'm sure they believe my getting cancer is an answer to their prayers to God to get me out of my daughter's life. They probably put my name in the temple to pray for my demise."

What was hard is that I wanted so badly to say "you know that isn't true." But he would have picked up on how phony that statement was coming from me. Because there is probably a lot of truth to it. Especially the part that if he dies, they will believe it's a blessing from God.

Yes, the guy who loves his daughter so much that he'd drive 14 hours each way, every other weekend to spend one day with her, who had to move away from her to find a job that would really support her and give her a chance to have a good education since her mother won't so much as work part time and just lives off government, church and child support... is the bad guy. I'm sure they love that he can't do that drive for the time being and his immune system won't allow him to fly anymore than he absolutely has to for treatment.

Why? Because then they can totally brainwash her without anyone saying so much as "just keep an open mind and think for yourself." They even lied to him about when she was getting baptized because they didn't want daddy to come. He had planned to be there just to let her know that he supported things that were important to her.

Hopefully they will get their parenting plan changed soon so that daddy can have some extended time with her. And unfortunately for them, he's responding well to treatment and has a chance at some long-term survival. Who knows, maybe family IS important to God.

I'm glad to hear he's responding to the very challenging treatment.

No need to fly off the handle. On the other hand, you need to draw boundaries and be very direct about it! Make sure you and your wife are on the same page. Then, together, you talk with FIL and MIL. Let them know that despite your opinion of how misguided FIL and MIL are with regards to the church, you commit to only speak positively about them to your kids and that you expect the same in return. You let them know that any future talking bad behind your backs to the grandkids will cost them future access to the grandkids. Be kind, empathetic, and direct.

I am angry for and in behalf of you. The TBM entitlement is a gargantuan monster.

Don't take the high road, Don't take the load road. Find the direct, straight through road. I don't know what that is, but I hope you do.

Never tolerate behavior from in-laws that you would not tolerate from anyone else in your life. I would confront FIL about his atrocious behavior toward you, your daughter and your family.

Is the tone of your post. (Of course I may be misinterpreting your reaction from your written word).

I don't see enough outrage in it and I hope you will take the advice of others here and realize how serious this is.

There's no way I would allow my children to have contact with anyone who would speak that way about me. The FIRSt time it happened I would put a stop to it.

We were fortunate to have moved far away from TBM inlaws and kept our children at a distance. Our kids didn't suffer for it one bit. We have never regretted our decision.

I second this.

"Sir, I must tell you that you may not undermine me to my children. I am the head of my family and they and I think I'm an excellent example and a great influence. Your daughter is an adult and she is now my wife, not your minor child. I hope you're willing to be more respectful of our immediate family because I'd hate to have to cut back on contact with you."

If this sounds too harsh, soften it up a bit, but please don't let this oaf's bad behavior proliferate. He is no longer in charge of his daughter and he's never been in charge of you or your children.

I think you need to be a papa bear and roar. My father put a stop to this kind (and any kind) of interference from my TBM grandparents (former bishop) very early on in my life.

One day while visiting in OUR house, my grandfather told me I couldn't leave the table until I ate my green beans. My father, also at the table, immediately interrupted.

"Hey Chuck, you don't like bananas right? Well, you don't get to leave the table until you eat that banana."

End of discussion, end of interference for time and all eternity.

You get to do what you want to do in your house and with your immediate family.

Please tell me that you will confront him personally about this.

Discuss it with your spouse, get on the same page, then the two of you need to go as a united front and confront them on it, in person.

This is a situation that must be dealt with head-on. It's unfair to your kids to let it lapse.

Typical TBM reaction, especially from an in-law because there aren't blood ties connecting you, except your grandchildren.

Agree with others here. Maybe try having a talk with him and put him on notice that if he ever tries to undermine you again to any of your children you will cut off ties. Make sure your wife backs you up on this.

The cult will stop at nothing to undermine your parental authority over your own children.

I know because I've been there myself.

My Ex-TBM parents did same thing. Compassionate Christian people, hardly. After my ex father-in-law died, my ex-mother in-law called and told me it was not her bad mouthing all these years, it was her husband. WOW

BYU Boner and Susie Q#1 are right on!
-----

I was at a beach BBQ with my daughter (a member), and her husband (not a member). (I'll call him 'Bob', here.)

Bob had gone to extensive trouble to make this BBQ successful, including chopping wood, and packing all the beach-items which go with such an excursion.

While taking care of the food on the BBQ, one of his teen-sons told his dad that he shouldn't drink beer, as it was a sin(?).

So...I spoke up, and (kindly) told my grandson that he had one of the best fathers a son could have, and began to name some of the good things his dad was involved in (which included doing all kinds of things in the ward's scout program, and even singing in the choir, when he is there).

All things a teen would likely not notice, let alone, really appreciate.

The good news: Bob called me a couple of days ago, and said he had a job in town (the town in which I live), and asked if it would be OK if he brought me over some fast-food-chicken for lunch (which we ate together, and had a nice visit).

Also, when they come over to the house for a visit, I always save our 'push-back' chair for him (which he loves, and takes a nap in). (They don't have such a chair in their own house.)

"Treating people as you would like to be treated" is a rewarding practice, besides just being good manners.

(I apologize for bragging---but it did fit the point.)

Ok, so my wife got more clarification.

Apparently when my kids were over there, my FIL didn't feel like they are making good choices. My daughter decided not to go on trek, and also (horrors) got lavender dye in her hair.

So he began discoursing on the difference intelligence and wisdom. He said they are smart kids (and they are -- both get good grades, awards etc). But they don't always apply their intelligence in wise ways.

He said that they should not follow my example, because I seek "wordly" knowledge at the expense of spiritual knowledge. That is not wise. I'm not a very spiritual person.

My wife on the other hand, wisely seeks after spiritual knowledge, which will bless her much more in the eternities. My lack of spirituality, coupled with her spiritually focused knowledge of the Truth, is a cause of great concern for him. He wants to make sure our kids follow my wife's example and not mine.

So of course it's crystal clear and completely appropriate in his mind. As if all of that makes the situation more justifiable to anyone living outside the Mormon bubble.

I tried to take a measured approach yesterday, because I didn't know the context in which this happened. But I was of course not happy. But when I found out the details it pissed me off a lot more.

Who are my in-laws to sit so high and mighty and determine who is a "worthy" example for their grandkids and who is not.

I'm not sure how to approach this. There is a 100% chance that any response from me, as a heathen, will fall on deaf ears. My wife will not go along with any attempts to keep the grandkids away. And I don't really want to do that. I don't want to be vindictive. And frankly I want to be better. But at the same time this inappropriate garbage will continue. I know that.

paulk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not sure how to approach this. There is a
> 100% chance that any response from me, as a
> heathen, will fall on deaf ears. My wife will not
> go along with any attempts to keep the grandkids
> away. And I don't really want to do that. I
> don't want to be vindictive. And frankly I want
> to be better. But at the same time this
> inappropriate garbage will continue. I know that.


I ran into this kind of problem when dealing with Visitation in custody battles. The general advice was to counter the criticism with showing the evidence that the person was not what others claimed them to be.
Also, to spend more time discussing people's different opinions and how their religious or other views could be the reason they were often critical of other people.
The point was to teach your own children that we can love our extended family and associate with them, but we do not have to accept their opinions. Kids understand what it's like for other kids to make nasty, ugly, comments or bully them. In essence, that is what some of the relatives do when they criticise and prefer one parent over the other.

I'd suggest that you make sure that your kids understand that the grandparents are just voicing an opinion and if they don't like to hear the negative comments about one of their parents that's it's OK to say so and/or to leave the conversation.
Kids can learn to set boundaries.

paulk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> also (horrors) got lavender dye in her hair.

A lot of kids do as it's stylish, fun, and non-permanent. Does his wife (gasp) color her hair or wear makeup?

> So he began discoursing on the difference intelligence and wisdom.

Sounds like he's lacking in BOTH departments!

>He said they are smart kids (and they are -- both get good grades, awards
> etc). But they don't always apply their
> intelligence in wise ways.

Very NICE job judging your grandkids!

> He said that they should not follow my example,
> because I seek "wordly" knowledge at the expense
> of spiritual knowledge. That is not wise. I'm not
> a very spiritual person.

Yeah, and he probably thinks he's a spiritual giant whose farts are cinnamon-scented.

> My wife on the other hand, wisely seeks after
> spiritual knowledge, which will bless her much
> more in the eternities. My lack of spirituality,
> coupled with her spiritually focused knowledge of
> the Truth, is a cause of great concern for him.
> He wants to make sure our kids follow my wife's
> example and not mine.

Oh fuck...really?

> So of course it's crystal clear and completely
> appropriate in his mind. As if all of that makes
> the situation more justifiable to anyone living
> outside the Mormon bubble.
>
> I tried to take a measured approach yesterday,
> because I didn't know the context in which this
> happened. But I was of course not happy. But
> when I found out the details it pissed me off a
> lot more.
>
> Who are my in-laws to sit so high and mighty and
> determine who is a "worthy" example for their
> grandkids and who is not.
>
> I'm not sure how to approach this. There is a
> 100% chance that any response from me, as a
> heathen, will fall on deaf ears. My wife will not
> go along with any attempts to keep the grandkids
> away. And I don't really want to do that. I
> don't want to be vindictive. And frankly I want
> to be better. But at the same time this
> inappropriate garbage will continue. I know that.

Well, Paul, I think I'd just be a little honest with your kids and say something like, "Your grandfather is rather judgmental toward me because he doesn't think I'm a spiritual person. He's entitled to his opinion, but it's rather tacky that he's sharing this with you. You're smart kids. Please don't argue with him or try to defend me. As much as possible consider the source and ignore him. I love you and don't care if your hair is lavender..."

Very best wishes, Boner

I have followed this thread for days...very typical behaviors. You yourself need no protection from your FIL. Your daughter does. Not physical but emotional. She is at a age where self esteem is critical, peer acceptance desired and perhaps a little purple hair experimentation.

If he continues the diatribe he will alienate her. And the younger children are not deaf or blind. They will begin to build walls. So, short of genocide what to do?

Be the best example of logic, morality, honesty and love you can possibly be. Let your daughter know how much she means to you- her thoughts, hopes,dreams and even her experiments. Be there for her in word and deed. One day she will set him on his heels. And then he will have no one left to go after but his own daughter. That will be interesting....

Gatorman
On to Omaha- taking on TCU

Your wife thinks this is okay? Your FIL is an asshole, but your problem is with your wife.

You keep going along to keep the peace. That doesn't seem to be working all that well it seems.

I don't have any easy answers, but what you allow, you encourage.

Protecting your own immediate family is your main job in life. That is what "taking the high road is all about."

It sounds like your wife still hasn't learned to relate to her own husband and children and is willing to sacrifice them to her parents' biases. Somehow you and she need to work this out.

Your in-laws need to know that what they are doing is wrong.

It isn't right to send your children to battle them alone. Do they need to learn to face bullies? Do they need to learn to set boundaries? Yes and yes. But it isn't right to expect them to take over the adult role of defending their family with no adult back up.

I'd say if your wife takes her parents' side over the protection of her own children, that you still need to say something to the offending father in law. A few words would go a long way in letting him know you're on to him. After that, the kids would be in a better position to defend themselves and their family.

That's taking the high road.

That she doesn't have a good enough separation from parents has been a sore spot throughout our marriage. They are extremely good at applying guilt, usually in the name of "the Gospel", and my wife responds to the manipulation. I don't expect major change from either her or her parents.

Our situation is complicated because, as I've mentioned before on this board, she is diagnosed bipolar. So she doesn't always react predictably or rationally. Though lately she's been doing pretty well.

We have gone to marriage counseling on a few separate occasions. I also have my daughter going to a counselor, and will probably have my oldest son see him too.

So our family situation is messy. Church guilt complicates it. Both the older kids don't particularly enjoy being around their grandparents. They say the are "too religious". They see the extremism and manipulation. My current situation is to appropriately maintain family health given some difficult parameters.

paulk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Our situation is complicated because, as I've
> mentioned before on this board, she is diagnosed
> bipolar. So she doesn't always react predictably
> or rationally. Though lately she's been doing
> pretty well.
>


My husband had the same situation with his mother. The truth is that they were all scared to death of her. I told her to knock off her shit, so she quit messing with me; but they were too frightened of her wrath to do it. The result is that they and their father were horribly abused. The very saddest part was that they saw her behavior as the norm.

The mentally ill person in the family is often the one with all the power, and they know it.

There are some things, however, that are non-negotiable. Keeping your children from seeing their grandparents in this situation is not "vindictive" but wise. It seems perhaps that speaking to your FIL is the best way to sort this out.

Let him know that he had no right to speak to your children in the way he did and that undermining your authority. is deceitful and immoral.

Having purple (or any other color) hair does not mean your daughter is making wrong choices.
I am a 54 year old woman and color my hair purple twice a year. I do it to show support and awareness for Epilepsy which my daughter has. Tell your daughter she can pick any of the following causes and tell people she is showing support for the chosen cause.
Hair color is not permanent like a tattoo. It is just one way of expressing individualism like wearing a blue or pink shirt of choice.

Purple ribbons = Domestic violence, religious tolerance, animal abuse, the victims of 9/11 (includes police and firefighters), pancreatic cancer, Crohn's Disease and colitis, cystic fibrosis, leimyosarcoma, macular degeneration, Sjogren's Syndrome, fibromyalgia, lupus, sarcoidosis, the homeless, Mucolipidoses, thyroid cancer, ADD, ADHD, alzheimers, cancer survivor (this is a general color that anyone who has survived cancer can wear), Pagan pride, Arnold Chiari Malformation, Mucopolysaccharidosis, Hurler Syndrome, children left unattended in cars, childhood or pediatric stroke, Anti-Gay Bullying (Spirit Day), epilepsy (Purple Day), overdose awareness, Porphyria.

If everyone went along to get along we would still be singing God Save The Queen here in the USA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2017 04:28PM by flutterbypurple.

I am finding this fascinating. Because I was not raised in the church, and my first, 28-year marriage till widowed was not in the church.

But I ran in to the same kinds of invasive behaviors on the parts of both my own parents and my husband's. I have had a number of friends not at all related to the church whose spouses turned into a passive little boy when his parents were around, not being loyal at all to the wife, but to the parents, who didn't have any problem butting in and interfering in all kinds of ways.

So I think maybe this is not uncommon among human beings---certainly is dysfunctional, not ideal,etc---but I think is common.

I liked the advice of the person who suggested talking to the kids about how people have all kinds of different opinions about things, talk to them about boundaries, talk about not taking in things that people say about you that are derogatory, etc. Because those are valuable life-skills your kids will need---and guess what? The world is full of people with lousy boundaries, people who will criticize you or loved ones, and it's a good thing to know that people sure are funny, and you don't have to buy in or allow yourself to be wounded by THEIR way of dealing with life and people.

Well, Paul, you wrote that both your older kids don't enjoy being around their grandparents--so it is already happening.

I agree with gatorman, Cheryl, and others, that your parents will end up alienating their grandchildren. You could just do nothing, and let nature take its course, in time, but it's true that kids always need help in setting boundaries with pushy cult members.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You need to approach your in-laws, with the assumption that they are normal people who want the best for their grandchildren. Getting angry and criticizing their cult does more harm than good. These people will not listen to anything you have to say. They have no respect for you. You don't need to incriminate your children--which is what would happen if you tell them your kids are already not wanting to be with them. That would also put them into panic mode, and Mormons in hyper-drive can be destructive. I know, because my manipulative, domineering, narcissistic mother-in-law destroyed my marriage. She also drove her husband to suicide.

That said, simply tell your in-laws that bad-mouthing a child's parent can cause a great deal of harm to a child. First of all, that child feels he is part of the parent, so he might be flawed as well. Secondly, when bad things are spoken, the speaker looks even worse than the targeted person. Thirdly, no one trusts a back-biter, and your children will shut down with your in-laws, and not tell them anything. You can say these things to your in-laws out of concern for them.

Your relationship seems just fine, and will probably continue to be fine. You are wise to get them counseling, because innocent children don't know how to deal with lifetime manipulators, which is what cult members are.

Hang in there. I've been put through Hell--even when I was a faithful Mormon. My ex divorced me, but it got me and our children away from that sick family. My ex's brother divorced his wife at about the same time, and their daughter killed herself, and their sons got on drugs, and one died of an overdose. Lying, manipulating, and judging others always backfires!

Children are wiser than we think they are, and if you listen to their gut instincts, and encourage them to seek the truth, they will do what is right for them. Unfortunately for you, most likely the path of knowledge will lead them out of the cult. Someday, you will be the strong one they will depend on. My own situation ended up extremely well, and my children and I resigned from the cult together, and we were free to become successful--without the abuse of lies and hysterical outbursts and undermining and power plays. I sincerely believe that the in-laws and their cult played a part in destroying my brother-in-law's family.

Boy, this really hit a nerve with me; I'm still thinking about it.

When I was in my late teens, a family friend who was a military chaplain--Methodist, but of course in the military, supposed to be not-denominational but general-Christian----

talked to us one evening about his idea that one of the most important parts of the wedding ceremony was the part where the father gives the bride away. WHY so important?

He said, he always paused there to give a little lecture to everyone that it was very important for the parents of the bride and groom to recognize that hereafter their relationship to their son and daughter must change, because the primary relationship/loyalty for the bride and groom would now be for each other and the new family they were forming; that the parents must let go of the parent-child relationship and treat their kids as adults and the marriage as valued and to be protected. That in fact all the people there were to commit to support the marriage, never, ever do things to undermine it.

I've always loved that whole idea, of making this explicit; it is so important, and experience says it is not easy!!

It's not just a TBM trait. My super fucking pios, backstabbing Catholic MIL badmouthed my wife and I to our friends...who then told us. My MIL was none to please when I read her the riot act and told her to stay away from my family.

I hear you. With me it was my own Mormon family who were the problem. My in laws were pretty decent folks. My father-in-law served in Iwo Jima and couldn't recall it without tears. They left money to my son, which is the same as leaving it to me. We talked about it before they passed. From my own family, nada. Righteous Mormons.