Hey all, I'm an occasional poster but decided to change my screen name because I'm afraid my identity might get pieced together.

Anyway, my dad got really upset yesterday randomly and told me that he fears that my son will grow up to be a "loser" because I'm raising him a outside the church. It's true that I've seen a lot of apostates that struggle. I despise the church, but this is an area where I feel a lot of fear.

If you've raised healthy kids outside the church, how did you do it? I realize that raising healthy kids is not completely under my control but I want to give him the best chance that I can.

I've dealt with a lot of painful unhealthy emotions that I link too growing up in the church. I don't think the church is healthy for children but how did you keep them away from drugs alcohol and teenage sex without the church?

Thanks

Start by looking at the articles on Richard Packham's pages. The link below has a list of them, including two that specifically touch on your question.

http://packham.n4m.org/#MORMONISM

Also, think about the world around you. There are huge numbers of good, kind, loving, productive people who have never been anywhere near the Mormon church. Raise you children with love and spend time with them doing constructive, joyful things. Teach them responsibility and how to work, but also give them lots of happy family activities.

Getting them involved in music is a great thing. It is not only good for them --- it develops the brain in a huge number of positive ways; it teaches (demands) cooperation, attention, perseverance, discipline, coordination, and a whole lot more positive things. All the while being beautiful and enjoyable --- if you do it right.

If you don't already, learn to play an instrument and then play together as a family. You are not too old, and you are not hopeless. There are instruments that almost anyone can master, if you give it a good shot. The family that plays together stays together.

Do things like camping with them, and make it fun.

Attend a church that is positive and compassionate, if you are still into religion at all. Talk with them about love and kindness and sensible moral values. And demonstrate those things to them every day in your own life. Find or create family activities and include friends and neighbors as much as you can, so that the kids learn to share good things with others.

Teach them to value logic and science and rational thought. Get yourself involved in volunteer activities that truly help other people. And then get the kids involved, also.

And never forget that love and kindness will draw your children close. Anger, cruelty, ignorance --- those things will bring rebellion. That's a major part of the reason that none of us are Mormons today.

So free range kids.

There are no guarantees.....

I only give one piece of advice to either new or expecting parents.....

There are likely grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters, in laws and more that will be more than happy to tell you how to raise your kids....

You know your kids the best. Use that knowledge as an investment....

When we left the church with young children this was a significant concern. Over the years I have worked hard to instill important values into my children and they are making good choices navigating a complex world. My oldest is approaching the teenage years and I have found her critical thinking and strong goals in academics and sports to be a strong asset. We talk through events and choices and work on solutions. Its far different then praying and hoping to hear a voice in your head giving the answer.

My one regret is not involving them more in community service through either another church or my own pursuit.It is something I have started to work towards.

Now 10 years later I believe the church doesn't represent my core values. I also find that as my kids get older the church creates a lot of busy work they could instead use the time to pursue more worthy activities.

Ask your dad who he voted for as President. Pretty sure that whoever it was (though we can guess, LOL) isn't a Mormon.

Then ask him if he thinks his preferred candidate is a "loser."

"So you think the President of the United States is a 'loser,' dad?"

Exactly....."so dad, you're telling me that everyone raised without mormonism is a loser? You realize that mormons make up a small fraction of a percent of the population don't you?....the pimple on the elephants ass is the winner and the rest of the elephant is just a loser."

It's rather disturbing to think people assume kids cannot be raised to be healthy, well functioning individuals outside the Morg bubble.

Quite the opposite. Lets do some math - Morgbot world population, (even using their inflated numbers) as a % of world population...

0.002%

I'm sure the other 99.998% will churn out some decent kids.

Yes, how arrogant is that?

But sadly enough, I remember thinking that Mormonism was a good way to raise good kids too. I think I heard it so often that I believed it. It wasn't until several years after I decided the One Twoo Church was actually Untwoo that it suddenly dawned on me that it wasn't a good way to raise any kid.

There were certainly bad kids who went to church every single week including a couple who made no secret they were having sex and a few who partied (drinking, drugs, smoking) every weekend.

And I knew plenty of good kids from school who didn't party or have sex and did well in school.

So why could I not see the lack of logic in the idea that Mormons raise better kids?

I wonder why non-Mormons think that Mormons are arrogant. In the dictionary it defines "arrogant" to mean "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities".

One of the most basic and glorious teachings of Mormonism is that our message is without the slightest doubt the most important message for mankind in all of history with an importance way far beyond any other message ever. And the one and only way to be successful in raising children (and doing many other things) is through the Church as its certainly the only organization with the abilities to keep kids from being screwed up and the only organization with many other abilities.

Fortunately none of you have to take my word for this. All you need to do is find out for yourselves whether or not the Mormon church is true, i.e. the most honest, truthful, and transparent organization ever. Of course if it isn't true then the leaders have certainly very often taught that they should be exposed as a fraud (and that means not getting the kids chained into believing in a lie & thus caught in a spiderweb).

Its sure comforting to know what to expect when you contact the Church and say "can I get the public web address of this past month's global assets/liabilities report" or ask other questions to figure out how honest/transparent they are. The more that people come away from such investigations saying "gosh what an honest and transparent Church" then the more the anti-Mormons will look like fools.

True confession that I still haven't gotten any financial reports for any of you so I do look, hopefully just temporarily, like a fool.

I'll give you just one example. I'm Catholic. I've been told by mormons that my faith is the Whore of the Earth. I've been told by mormons that they have the "gospel", and they call all their scriptures "gospel", but they have absolutely no idea what the Gospel is (hint - it's the first four books of the New Testament) - and they then dare to lecture another Christian about what is true and what isn't.

If you don't want to be called arrogant, don't call other people's faith tradition the Whore of the Earth.

Just a tip.

Honest TBM is satire.

Children raised inside of Mormonism's narrow-minded views are more likely to be "losers." Many Mormons, in my opinion, feed on self-righteousness, judgment, and are overly concerned about keeping up appearances. Those aren't things I want my kid to learn.

And when they get to be missionary-age -- those poor kids are "losers" to me. Proclaiming to have the "truth" and demanding to be called "Elders" while they pedal around town in their white shirts and dress pants. Gag.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2017 04:00PM by rubi123.

Your kids are better off having you as their parent instead of an organization.

Spend time talking to each of them daily. Make rules and have consequences if there are infractions. Adjust your expectations as your children mature and their needs change. I think it can be difficult to do this because as soon as a parent figures out the three year old brain the child is turning four and that's how it is into adulthood.

Be reassured that the mormon church is a bad way to raise children. No one in that organization cares about your children as much as you do. Their main priority is forcing them into a mold and squeezing them to fit whatever the church needs with little concern about the needs of individual children.

The mormon church wants kids to grow up and take callings, serve missions, pay tithing, make the church look good, and turn out babies who will be a new source of all of these church resources.

I've got three kids. The oldest (almost 21) was a straight-A student, played HS sports, never got in trouble, is kind and generous and honest and a good son and friend, and is in college wanting to become a lawyer (prosecutor).

The next is a straight-A student, is an amazing artist, also plays and loves HS sports, is kind and generous and honest and a great friend and daughter, and just got named to the National Honors Society.

The next is almost two years old, is loving and curious and learning fast, and loves her mom, dad, and brother and sister.

None of them ever had anything to do with the mormon church.
Or any other church.
They were raised to be honest, kind, curious, skeptical, and caring. And taught to think things through, not to "obey."

Your dad only knows mormonism. He's ignorant of the billions upon billions of people in the world who are "raised" without it, and who are wonderful people. He also ignores the real damage the church does, teaching people to be fake, to believe bullshit, and disown family who don't "believe," and to steal 10% of peoples' income to enrich the leaders.

Tell him to open his eyes to the real world, and to buzz off.
They're your kids, not his.
Keep them away from the disastrous, dishonest, harmful cult.
They'll turn out fine.

My TBM FIL recently told my wife that our kids will be failures if we don't force them to go to church. He spoke of family members that let their kids decide if they would go to church or not. The kids left the church, one is gay (a problem in FIL's eyes), one is battling serious depression, etc... He fails to recognize that he's arguing against agency, that being gay isn't a problem and is certainly not a consequence of leaving TSCC, that the depression might be biological or might stem from still being surrounded by Mormonism and being pressured and/or disparaged by Mormons.

As others have mentioned, Mormonism is truly insignificant in the world. Most kids turn out just fine without TSCC, many without any religion at all. Mormons are taught that the world is evil, the "natural man" will take over if you're not "actively engaged", etc... They are insular and fail to see good in the world...they live in fear...and they're wrong!

Learning to see good outside of the "church" was one of my first steps out. I saw that all of my non-member coworkers and friends were good people. Some are religious, but most aren't. They all raised healthy and happy kids that did well in school, are successful, are starting families of their own, etc... I recognized that many of these friends put in more effort with their kids than a lot of LDS parents do. I know many Mormons that had more kids than they could handle and then put in little effort...they're beaten down emotionally and financially and start coasting through life in quiet desperation.

Teach your kids hard work, to think for themselves, and to respect others. They'll be better off for not having the cult in their life. There will be difficult times, but everyone passes through these...don't second guess yourself and start thinking your teenagers would have been angels if you had just kept going to church. You'll be fine, and they'll be fine.

> I don't think the church is healthy for children but how did you keep them away from drugs alcohol and teenage sex without the church?

I would just point out that LD$, Inc. does NOT keep children away from drugs, alcohol, and teenage sex. There are plenty of active Mormon kids engaged in all of those things and have been for at least the last 50 years (I'm sure they were before then, but that was before my time).

So being in TSCC does not guarantee that your kids will avoid those behaviors. That will have more to do with you as a parent than membership in any church.

My situation is just the opposite. I raised two young men that have made the old man extremely proud. Along comes a new, inactive Mormon, wife and poof, a new kiddo. I am struggling keeping this new little one from the indoctrination of my TBM inlaws.

My MIL has three grandchildren raised outside of the influence of TSCC and she said "without the church these children don't have a chance". She actually sat in my living room and told me she is working on finding a husband for one of her granddaughters. The girl is 15 YEARS OLD!!! WTF?

I greatest fear is my child being exposed to this cult. That fear far outweighs the real world perils.

The presumption that Mormon methods of raising children are the only way to correctly raise children is typical of the arrogance of TBMs. Under this assumption, only a few million people on the planet out of the 8 billion have been raised properly? Please.

In Mormonism, the pressure to be perfect causes your children to learn to lie and keep up a front. They need to appear perfect in order to survive and so integrity is out the window. This is the opposite of healthy child rearing.

My mother was the RS Pres. and my dad was the bishop. Two of their boys were alcoholic drug users by the time they were 15. (Not me. I was the goody goody haha.)

Teach your kids to think for themselves. Teach your kids to think critically. Teach your kids to understand that there is no sin, there is only consequences or rewards to our actions and we can control which outcome we want by our choices. This is nothing to do with religion. This is to do with life.

big thumbs up :)

Thanks all for the replies. I really need help countering those church messages. I may have to distance myself from my believing family for a while. It's interesting how one can feel like they have it all worked through and then have kids and have to deal with the fear all over again.

Thank you all

Mormons are a very small portion of all the people on earth, or even in Western Society. Many people of all faiths and none manage to raise children who grow up to be decent, caring human beings. There is no one way to raise kids that will ensure that they do not have problems with substance abuse or other issues as teens and later. Mormon kids have as many,if not more problems than others. You just do the best you can to model honest, caring,ethical behavior yourselves as parents, teach them to think critically for themselves, and love them as they are, not as you wish they would be. Let them find their own path.

The Mormon way of raising kids with lies, fear, and hatred of gays and others is not one of the better ways to be a parent. Be glad for your kids and yourself that you got out and can give them a better, more authentic life.

I'm extremely new to being a parent, but I've been out of the LDS Church for quite a few years. I have given this some thought, so I'll share my perspective. Obviously, it's too early to say whether I've been a "successful parent."

1) Mormonism cannot be our frame of reference.

I think LDS people in their quest to be superior often set up non-LDS kids for failure. If a child begins to define themselves by their not being Mormon, rather than the values and beliefs that they affirm for themselves, then what would we expect. Probably attitudes like this:

"Mormons don't drink smoke cigarettes, so I suppose I have to smoke cigarettes to meet what is expected from a 'non member.'"

"Mormons don't do drugs, and I'm not Mormon, so I guess I'll do drugs."

"Mormons don't have premarital sex. I'm not Mormons, so I guess I'll sleep around aimlessly."

Needless to say, this is not healthy. Cigarettes cause cancer whether sec. 89 of the D&C exists or not. Illegal drugs have various levels of negative impacts whether the prophet says so or not. Irresponsible sex practices can have a range of consequences ranging from emotional problems to STDs even if For the Strength of the Youth had never been written. (Aside - I no longer believe in being completely sexually abstinent before marriage. It's unrealistic, unhealthy, and most of all no fun. But I do believe in being responsible to one's own health, and the health of one's partner(s)).

Whether as adults or children we define ourselves in relation to Mormonism, we are still allowing the LDS authorities to control us. What we do or don't do will have consequences, but we don't need to have the LDS Church lording over us to understand that.

I would suggest that we do what we would do if Joseph Smith had never founded a church in the first place.

2) Embrace the uncertainty

The LDS Church taught us that there was some magical system to raising children: "Raise up a child in the way he should go and he will never depart therefrom."

If my LDS parents and their peers' experience is any indication, things don't pan out that way. They all followed the standard LDS parenting formula, and as my peer group went into adulthood you saw various outcomes. Some of the kids became TBMs, others get involved in self-destructive behaviors, and others like me leave the church and try to live normal lives. Whatever!

The point is that despite the advertising, the LDS Church cannot control what your kids will be like as adults. (But they can do a lot of damage trying). Nobody else has a magical system either. So, we just have to do the best we can and hope they discover their best selves.

3) Other models

I think it's great that the original poster is seeing other models of successful parents outside the LDS framework. That is just empirical evidence that the messages from an LDS family member suggesting the kids are "losers" without LDS, Inc. are not true.

I'm confused. I'm not sure how people raise good, genuine, empathetic children IN the church!

Raising kids outside the church means teaching them to be good for good sake, because it makes the world and their own environment better. It means teaching them not to engage in dangerous behavior for reasons other than "god is watching", but rather because those behaviors will hinder their later opportunities. It means teaching them not to buy into dogma, to be real truth seekers.

From my experience, it's a way better way to raise children.

It isn't right for parents to take so much credit or blame for their children. Mormons expect to live vicariously through their children when every generation needs to make their own decisions and live their own lives.

I guess it's fine to be proud of what children do but not to take the credit for it.

Those of us who grew up in TBM homes decided to leave that way of life and branch out to live our own lives as we saw fit. All of us had that right. No one had a right to cry and blame us for not living according to some plan set out by a fake church.

We don't owe our lives lives to anyone and no one owes us their lives.

We can take credit for what we do and our kids get to take credit for what they do.

Raising your kids in Mormonism is good for making them Mormons and not much else.

When I decided to leave the church, my husband tried to convince me to stay by saying that even with all of its problems, the church teaches the best way to raise children.

My husband's statement made me take a good look at children from the most TBM families that I knew at the time. I realized that children from TBM families weren't necessarily kind, inclusive, empathetic, or good thinkers. They were just good at being Mormons. They could recite B of M stories, they talked about going on missions and liked to bear their testimonies, but many of them really weren't good kids. I even considered some of them to be downright mean, ill-mannered and selfish.

I've raised two kids into adulthood and I think they've turned into pretty terrific people. They did some of their growing up while I was in the church and some of their growing up when I was out of it. When I consider my kids' best qualities, they're not something that the LDS church ever taught them or that one can even learn in the LDS church.

My only advise. Love them always. Show them that daily. A big one for me is talking "with" your kids not, "too" your kids. Most of all,,, Listen to them.. Not just hear their words, but listen to what they are saying and respond accordingly.

Kids love conversation with adults when they are not made to feel less then or dumb or insignificant. Their thoughts matter. Their feelings matter. They matter.

try jesus OPie ~ ( srs )



https://youtu.be/HMzZYkEGywI

My children were not blessed in F&T meeting and I never took them to church. They turned out alright

I was worried about raising kids without religion.

I feared they'd find a "cult" and feel important in a false belief.

However, they are definitely NOT interested in religion.

They've married and have kids of their own......without Mormonism in their lives.

They are great human beings..........the love they have for family & friends & community wasn't from any religion.

I'm a happy Mom & Grandma.

I was determined to be a family.......without all the shame & guilt of Mormonism....or any religion.

YEAH....I can die a happy soul....loved & loving life.
KJ/AnonyMs

I was raised without religion, although not intentionally...had a single mom who just worked all the time. I was always a good kid who developed her own "morals" naturally. I converted in my senior year of high school. When the members found out that I had never smoked, done drugs, had "relations," drank coffee, did community service, was in the top of my class, etc. they just said, "Wow, how did you learn to do any of that without the church?" It was somewhat insulting because I knew from my own life that nobody needs a church or religion to teach them how to be good people. Those raised in religion will never get it, though. Ignore your dad and focus on your kids. You know they are better off outside of church than in.

I'm not a parent, but I hope I can help in some way.

First off, the church was all you knew growing up. Judging from your post, I can assume you live in a Mormon-populated state (correct me if I'm wrong). And congratulations on cutting ties with the "church."

That being said, here is my advice for sex:

"You're too young to understand what love is. It is a process that requires commitment."

"Do not sleep with someone you don't love unless you want to have children with them. 'I don't know' constitutes as an automatic 'no.'"

and

"You're young. Take all the time to be selfish before you have children."

I can't think of what to tell you then the normal things you would hear about smoking and alcohol. I know I don't want chronic diseases and cancer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2017 09:16PM by helenm.

I'll be reading these more closely later. It's clear that Mormonism isn't a sure thing to raising good, moral kids. However since I'm in Utah, I'm feeling a little anxious about raising my kids as a minority-- not Mormon. I am sure that they will find their way and they don't need to go to church and all the activities to find friends.

*raises hand*

Raising a child - he's currently four. No church to speak of.

I was raised moderately in the Episcopal church during elementary school, but barely went after that (due to parents divorcing). I've never done drugs, and only drink on occasion in moderate, socially acceptable amounts.

Parents outside of Mormon churches raise good, upstanding kids all the time. You simply have to be a parent. Teach them what is and isn't harmful to their bodies. Show them how to be good citizens, and participate with them as they get to middle school and high school in community assistance (soup kitchens, veteran hospitals, etc). Teach them that the value of a human being is not determined on how much they make or what they wear, but on who they are as a person and how they treat others.

Teach them that different points of view, while sometimes difficult to understand, are important in society to keep it healthy and growing. Talk with them, ask their opinions, value their input.

A healthy, good child who is respected and confident in their abilities becomes a good adult. Morality is something that isn't religious in origin. It's human in origin.

Oh... and on the issue of sex.

I'm not one who believes abstinence before marriage is particularly healthy. If anything, I think a couple who wants to marry should have sex prior to the marriage. It's a big compatibility factor issue.

And I lost my virginity at 17. To a Mormon boy.

So... yeah. Mormon kids have sex before marriage. They do drugs and drink, too. They just lie about it.