Hello kentish. It's always nice to see you around.

I saw your comment on Steve Benson's thread and am responding separately here to avoid hijacking Steve's thread as I'm veering off down the garden path, away from his main topic (re Manchester bombing), seen here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1980589,1980589#msg-1980589

kentish, you said:

"I think a good mark of the heritage I have as British (English) born is that Brits are best when the chips are down and they are facing trouble against the odds. Terrible attacks such as this are doomed to failure on this score alone. An additional thought as a Christian believer is that terrorism like this is to me an admission of failure in their so-called faith...thinking that their god cannot accomplish his ends unless they try to do it for him."

I agree with you about the British fighting spirit. A force to be reckoned with, undoubtedly. And may it sustain those in sore need as we speak.

I had a thought while reading your "admission of failure" statement. Not that I want to argue with you about religious belief or about one major faith over another. (I'm interested in comparisons and differing theologies but am not into fighting about it myself. Neither are you, I've noticed, kentish, so we can stay on friendly terms I'm hoping).

But.

I have been around the block, thrice at least, in the religious stakes. No matter which denomination I've tried, I note (always the outsider, me) that many Christian groups, and their adherents, also seem to exhibit an "admission of failure in their so-called faith...thinking that their god cannot accomplish his ends unless they try to do it for him."

Hence:

The rabid preaching to vast numbers they claim are outside the flock.

Judgement against fellow believers and even more so towards outsiders.

Clamp-down on family members, especially kids (instead of, say, teaching them to think for themselves).

Lack of choices for adherents (and, again, from parents regarding their children).

Refusal to accept differences.

Intense focus on nits while ignoring elephants.

Unholy renderings of scripture (to front all the above).

That all seems to me very much like people thinking God needs their help to organize the universe.

Of course, that all pales in comparison to an event like Manchester where insanity prevails for the time it takes to wreak lasting havoc. But still, on the scale of pushing God aside and doing it the human way, I don't think Christians are faultless.

Bottom line I'm just saying that it's not only "them" but often "us" as well.

Nightingale, I have no problem with your essential premise. I think it true that believers often feel that it is incumbent on them to take control thereby rendering God insufficient because he is somehow incapable of doing things himself. Mostly, in my experience, it is on what might be termed small issues in comparison with the taking of innocent life the way these terrorists seem to operate. I make no excuses about my own failures...the older I get the more certain I am of those shortcomings, but I think that often the problem stems (within Christian faith) to measuring ourselves against a set of dos and don'ts. This problem is compounded when we make ourselves feel better by comparing our dos and don'ts success against that of others. More and more, for myself, I constantly ask myself a simple question: If all I had was the four gospels would I have enough to saved? The ultimate goal of any Christian is to emulate the Savior. If we are successful in that then all the rest is surely taken care of

It is perhaps a simplistic approach but then in its essence I believe the Christian faith to be a simple thing that we make very complicated. I do think, that the more rigid the belief system the more pronounced the failings you mention become.

I have probably rambled but I do agree mostly with what you say. ... but then there are no perfect Christians, least of all me, only those dressed in borrowed perfection.

kentish: "...in its essence I believe the Christian faith to be a simple thing that we make very complicated. I do think, that the more rigid the belief system the more pronounced the failings you mention become."

Well said, kentish. I agree absolutely. True too that as we get older our perspective, hopefully, widens and we see things perhaps more clearly. It can take a lifetime to process it all and come to see our place within the picture.

Having taken a meandering course through joining the WatchTower Society (JW) and the Mormon Church, with EV denominations in between, and after, the prior two, I have seen a lot of similarities in their approaches and underlying beliefs, even though some of the doctrine is different. To me, fundamentalism of any stripe produces similar results, some of which you mention. I didn't know at the time of joining or attending these groups that they were on the fundy scale. Too, it took me time to accept that was the case. As if there was some moral failure on my part, or stupidity, in choosing to join faiths that turned out to be largely negative for me. It hasn't escaped my notice that in every case I attended/joined each one at the invitation/urging of friends. Interestingly, and hurtful at the time, none of the friends stuck when I left their group. In fact, JWs are actually mandated to shun a leaver. Hurtful. I can be more blase about it all now though but it took time to work through and come to understand the reasons. (Understanding is different from agreement, of course).

I thought at the time of becoming a JW that it represented Christianity. Felt the same with the first, and second, EV group a friend invited me to join. By the time I ran into a Mormon couple who became friends I knew that EVs and other Christians didn't accept Mormonism even as part of the Christian family. I saw enough similarity there, though, that I felt at home well enough. At the time, I had a yearning to be baptized again and so I joined them more formally than I had any of the EV churches, a move that horrified my remaining EV friends. I have detailed here quite a few times how awful my Mormon baptism service was but instead of fleeing into the night, my first impulse after that horrible experience was to try to make it all work out. Three years of the bad times piling up finally convinced me to get out of Dodge and eventually I returned to one of the more mainstream EV groups, which also didn't last. I find, among other issues, that many Christians don't trust you if you've been a JW or Mormon as, of course, they look on those beliefs as strange and non-Christian. They would be amazed, shocked, to find out how much they all have in common (according to my experience and analysis).

Among the most enlightening realizations about religion for me has been that every group I have come to know states that they are the ones who know "the truth". The JWs, in fact, call their faith "the truth". As a young teen that appealed to me as I believed at the time that only one way could be true. Too, you are absolutely correct about how the more fundamentalist thinkers tend to get lost in the details, hence the focus on arcane details that easily miss the bigger, and more important, picture.

I don't expect perfection when it comes to people or religion which is fortunate as that is hard to come by, myself included obviously. I detest hypocrisy though and it puts me right off. Mistakes, though, I understand. Seeing our own imperfections certainly helps us to hopefully be less judgemental and more forgiving of others.

You mention simplicity. In the midst of an office full of Christians of different denominations all jostling for my soul (so to speak) after they knew I had left the JWs, which I found quite distressing and confusing, actually, one co-worker simply said, "Nightie, we (her family and herself) just love you", meaning none of the doctrinal differences mattered. That has stayed with me ever since. It was such a relief after feeling like a tiny fish being torn apart between giant battling sea lions. She is my best friend to this day and those few and simple words truly illustrated to me the essence of the Christian message at its root. (Or my interpretation of what it is supposed to be about).

I think that is why my favourite Christian concept is wrapped around the two greatest commandments: Love God. Love your neighbour. That has a lot of meaning for me, way over and above a laborious exegesis of every single text. Following my JW years, EV friends and I pored over every individual scripture and tended to get lost in the academic pursuit of picayune details, unwittingly losing sight of the essentials.

This emphasis has led, in my experience, to a focus on "works" which again can obscure the core principle of love. Simple concept. Pure intent. I like that!

Thanks, kentish, for your reply. You've got me mulling over memories and pursuing random thoughts. My idea of an enjoyable interlude.

It's always nice to see you around.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2017 01:59PM by Nightingale.

Thanks, Nightingale. Joining the Mormons Church was for me my first real experience being involved in church. As a boy, I attended Life Boys and Boy's Brigade (Cubs at the local Salvation Army too at one time) and that was mainly my exposure to church. For this reason I really did not associate Mormonism as being other than a sort of offbeat church. I can say that I was never really comfortable as a Mormon despite being in a branch presidency (Canada) and a bishopric in Utah. Too stubbornly English, I guess, to accept being told what to do and how to think. I do attend an evangelical church but am really not into the denominational thing very much. I enjoy the services and have some great friends who tolerate my different thinking on those issues (mainly political and parochial) that affect my life being a big city product now living in a small Idaho community. I think that the trend by young people away from the traditional denominations of their parents is a good thing since I see it as a refocus on the simpler things of the Christian gospel. After Mormonism (working for the Church and living in Utah) I do not find my experience in EV the same as you describe. After Mormonism I find it quite freeing...probably again down to my maturing into old geezerhood.