I understand the overstated chain of command of LDS senior executive management.

I also do not think the bretheren are physically or mentally capable of managing a multi billion dollar international hedge fund masquerading as a religion.

The torch is expected to pass to Nelson upon Monson's death. We will be unaware of his real, and day to day management authority or ability. It will be promoted how exceedingly capable Nelson and his people will be able to manage the operation.

We will still be in the dark of the real operational management.

I am expecting Dieter to get more TV time and publicity as a top manager. Holland, Bednar and many of the other henchmen simply come off badly in the media.

I must wonder when all appears normal, that we may be on the edge of some significant changes.

It all comes down to who has the signature machine ready.

I heard that doofdorf was going to fly a plane into the COB if he wasn't made fearless leader.

I don't think any of them are actually trusted with anything. They're just there for show. The day to day operations of the church are handed by a bureaucracy.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think any of them are actually trusted
> with anything. They're just there for show. The
> day to day operations of the church are handed by
> a bureaucracy.

Occam's razor. It's a far simpler explanation that the bureaucracy that runs LDS Inc. is within the fifteen apostles instead of an outside interest, and thus far more likely.

Yeah, but one of the big 15, at least one of them, controls that bureaucracy. I have no doubt that the real power still lies somewhere in the 15, probably either among eyring and uchtdorf or Oaks and Holland.

A lot of the 15 have the law and business degrees that are typical of people running huge corporations. Most have been involved in the church for so long now, either presidents at church schools, general authorities or apostles, that I am sure they are the ones who hold the reins. Probably the more decrepit ones like Ballard and Hales may not have much to do with anything.

You can't count out Nelson, either. He's the first in line when Monson dies, which I am guessing is going to be some time before the next conference, and even though he is the oldest he has never given any indication that he is suffering from the effects of his age. On the contrary, he looks more able and clear-headed than many of the 15 who are younger than him.

I could be wrong and he could be a babbling Gork in private, but he certainly does not give that impression in public. Nor does he give the impression that anyone in the church is attempting to hide him being enfeebled the way they do with Monson, and frankly what they do with Monson is embarrassing and not in the least dignified. My sympathy is limited though. He's been in the 12 since he was 36 and he lives in a country where he has the freedom to do whatever he wants, he could have opted out at any time. He knew a long time before he became the prophet that he was going to eventually become the prophet.

I think ultimately a lot of these guys are cowards. Waiting around for other people to die so they can take power. It's pretty much the most awful way for any business to be ran.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 02:07AM by midwestanon.

The pres. alone contols Ensign Peak Advisors.

It COULD happen, but I doubt it's very likely to happen.

The so called prophet controls nothing.

Any policy or revelation has to be blessed by the 12.

In times past they padded the first presidency with extra councillors. More than once they had three councillors or more.

You don't need to be an apostle to be in the first presidency.

In my life time I have seen both situations.

I even remember them putting a unhealthy apostle in the first presidency where he basically sat things out while they brought the 12 to full strength.

As far as running the business side. Look to the presiding bishopric. They handle most of it.

The church is a corporation sole, which means one man (Monson now) has total control of all financial matters. The Q12 only have to approve spiritual related stuff.

Additional counselors can be added to assist the president but they have no preference when succession time comes. If they are from the Q12, all counselors revert to whatever seniority they had as Apostles (based on the date they were made Apostles.) If they are not from the Q12, counselors lose that title upon death of the president and just go back to whatever they were doing before.


'Officially, a corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole") incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man. This allows corporations to pass without interval in time from one office holder to the next successor-in-office, giving the positions legal continuity with subsequent office holders having identical and sole-ownership powers to their predecessors.'

I still keep thinking that these guys, as business savvy as they supposedly are, would have built in some sort of get-out clause in the event they (the Q12 or a consensus among them) feel that there is a man among them they REALLY don't want to become President of the church for whatever reason, and have some legal prestidigitation they can use to justify keeping him out while saving face for everyone, as is their instinct.

I seem to recall something like this going on with Packer, that the rest of the Q12 were worried about him becoming President of the church and somehow he became Acting president of the Q12 for the longest time when he apparently should have (?) been president of the Q12 or something. Maybe I'm mixing up some things, but that was the impression I got at the time. Packer was Acting President of the Q12 from '94-'08.

Maybe I'm confusing President of the Q12 with President of the Church (I understand they are different titles but there seems to be some shuffling going on in terms of seniority or something.)

>I seem to recall something like this going on with Packer, that the rest of the Q12 were worried about him becoming President of the church and somehow he became Acting president of the Q12 for the longest time when he apparently should have (?) been president of the Q12 or something. Maybe I'm mixing up some things, but that was the impression I got at the time. Packer was Acting President of the Q12 from '94-'08.

Monson was the senior apostle during that time and would have been president of the Qo12, but he was in the FP, so BKP was acting pres of the Qo12.

"(based on the date they were made Apostles.)"

This was once the case, but on April 5, 1900, Lorenzo Snow changed seniority so that it was based on the date of entrance into the Quorum rather than the date of apostolic ordination.

Snow appears to have done this to prevent John Willard Young from succeeding him.

See: http://hartbrad.blogspot.com/2015/09/child-prophet-curious-case-of-john.html

Anyone who really understands Mormonism has no doubt on who the successors are to Monson in the leadership hierarchy. Its the 3 Apostles with 30+ years of Q12 membership each. Nelson is 92, Oaks is 84, and Ballard is 88. Unless you are a true prophet yourself you can't be sure about who will be the 17th, 18th, etc. presidents of the LDS kingdom but you can be sure how the succession will happen. Interestingly, the next 3 behind them are all old men themselves - Hales 84, Holland 76, and Eyring 83. The last time the Church had a president under age 80 was in March 1975 when SWK turned 80. For the past 42 years its always someone in the last quintile of a century age at the top and unless the top 5 all die within the next 40 months then it'll be probably 50 & many more years before anyone under 80 is at the top again.

The last ward I was in called a guy to be bishop at age 72. Everyone was making a huge deal out of his age. He didn't seem too with it. He fell asleep on the stand quite a bit. That guy never would have made it in the top leadership.

After seeing that, it makes me wonder if all of the top dogs take Provigil to get through conference weekend.

I've known more than one 80 some year old that lived for 10 years under 24/7 care.

Monson could live for another 10 years in the condition he's in. A lot could happen in that time.

It will be interesting to see how things play out in the next 15 to 20 years.

Only if Brigham Young were to return from the dead.

As it stands, it's a "good old boys club." They nominate from among themselves; say a prayer following Groupthink. Followed by more Groupthink, maybe another prayer.

Then they concur on who the next priesthood holder profit is going to be.

One is usually called from the presiding First Presidency. Since that leaves Henry Eyring and Dieter Uchtdorf, it will most likely fall to be whoever is the more alpha of the two.

I'm not sure I understand Amyjo. The next Prophet after Monson, unless he dies, will with 100% absolute certitude be Russell M. Nelson.

The line of succession is dictated by whoever has been a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles the longest.

midwestanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not sure I understand Amyjo. The next Prophet
> after Monson, unless he dies, will with 100%
> absolute certitude be Russell M. Nelson.
>
> The line of succession is dictated by whoever has
> been a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles the
> longest.


The person with the "title" of prophet will be Nelson.

The question is who will be actually running the corporation.

Monson currently has the "title" if prophet, however, it appears he has trouble tying his own shoes and operating a spoon.

I am suggesting he is incapable of running a major corporation.

Quinn reports that HBL tried to get ahead of JFS agruing he was too old. JFS countered by calling HBL to the FP, the 12 decided to back JFS.

Possible but not probable

If they keep changing some things by " revelation ", why can't they have a " revelation " that one of the 12, who's in their early 60's get it? He'll be more capable and competent and last longer mentally. This next in line stuff is stupid if they're not able to lead for real. I understand that they don't have all the power or decision making . It's like congress, I guess, he needs othersto make sure nothing disastrous or embarrassing happens

I was a Mishie in France when David McKay was about to pass. Paul Dunn visited us and announced that the next president, p, s & r will ALWAYS be the current president of the Q12. Not the acting one. Not the healthiest one. But THE president of the Q12.

Was BY in that position? - I forget. Otherwise, Dunn was correct.

When Joseph Fielding Smith succeeded McKay, French papers announced that "The Mormon Pope is dead." Lol

The French members in my branch could easily say McKay's name. They were used to it. But when JFS assumed the throne, they had to remember (some forgot for a while) to change the name when bearing their testimonies. And most found it difficult to say Smith's name:

"Je sais que Joseph Feedeenk Smeet est un vrai prophet ..."

IMO, a coup is overdue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 04:55PM by PapaKen.

Yes, Brigham Young was the President of the 12 but that didn't mean he was going to be the President of the Church after JS died. You might say he pulled off the original coup the resulted in where we are today. Although, that is overly simplistic. Brigham's initial success in 1844 was only to establish the 12 as a group as the successor to JS. Given he was President of the 12 he had a natural leadership role but he could not convince the rest of the 12 to agree to organize a First Presidency until 1847. What we have today is the result of a gradual evolution that admittedly hasn't changed in several decades but it was by no means well thought out in the early days of the church.

Dieter & Nelson don't along. Dieter will go back to the 12 and may well stop active particpation as HBB did.

No matter what happens, TBM's will be in full "The King is dead, long live the King!" mode. And unless one of the major domo's loses his nut and spills the beans on the whole corporation, church PR™ will make the whole thing super speerchul.

Unless they do a 116 pages type thing and pray about it 3 times for the answer, then get massive blowback when the answer is a corporate-killing wrong guy for the job...! :-)

Well I've been out a good long while.

Here's what I found spelled out on Mormonnewsroom.org

It's straight forward, and follows that Nelson will be the next president.

"When the president of the Church passes away, the following events take place:

1. The First Presidency is automatically dissolved.

2. The two counselors in the First Presidency revert to their places of seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Seniority is determined by the date on which a person was ordained to the Twelve, not by age.

3. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, now numbering 14 and headed by the senior apostle, assumes Church leadership.

4. The senior apostle presides at a meeting of the Quorum of the Twelve to consider two alternative propositions:

i. Should the First Presidency be reorganized at this time?

ii. Should the Church continue to function with the Quorum of the Twelve presiding?

5. After discussion, a formal motion is made and accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

6. If a motion to reorganize the First Presidency is passed, the Quorum of the Twelve unanimously selects the new president of the Church. The new president chooses two counselors and the three of them become the new First Presidency. Throughout the history of the Church, the longest-serving apostle has always become the president of the Church when the First Presidency has been reorganized.

7. Following the reorganization of the First Presidency, the apostle who has served the second longest is sustained as the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. When the second-longest-serving apostle has also been called into the First Presidency as a counselor, the third-longest-serving apostle becomes acting president of the Twelve.

8. The president of the Quorum of the Twelve, along with the rest of the apostles, sets apart* the new president of the Church through a formal laying on of hands."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/additional-resource/succession-in-the-presidency-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

The Koolaid Newsroom.

Russell M Nelson AKA Pro-fit, sturgeon and reveal-it-later. Oops, Nelson was a heart surgeon prior to apostolic duties. Although many who meet him say shaking his hand is like grabbing a cold fish.

Trivia Question: What do you call the recovery and support organization for apostolic alcoholic assholes?

Answer: AAA

There cannot be a coup without rewriting the incorporation documents of the corporation sole. Those dictate the succession, not scripture or vote.

Good point. Can you post an exact quote?

dogblogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There cannot be a coup without rewriting the
> incorporation documents of the corporation sole.
> Those dictate the succession, not scripture or
> vote.


Something like Trump being president and Steve Bannon and Jared actually running the show.

I don't recall which profit it was, but one of the presidents of the morg since David O. McKay did not fit the profile of being the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. He may have been called from the First Presidency.

Maybe someone else here can remember which one it was? It seems like whoever it was was called in the 1980's or thereabouts.

As I remember it created quite a rustle when it happened because it was out of the norm and a deviation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 09:26PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't recall which profit it was, but one of the
> presidents of the morg since David O. McKay did
> not fit the profile of being the president of the
> Quorum of the Twelve. He may have been called from
> the First Presidency.
>
> Maybe someone else here can remember which one it
> was? It seems like whoever it was was called in
> the 1980's or thereabouts.
>
> As I remember it created quite a rustle when it
> happened because it was out of the norm and a
> deviation.


I'm not sure if this is what you may be remembering, Amyjo,but someone was called into the First Presidency without being in the Q of 12 (I cannot remember who) but the line of succession from Pres. of the Q12 to actual "prophet' has been consistent since Brigham pulled off his coup.

Thank you. That sounds like the one!

:)

Alvin Rulon Dyer was ordained an apostle and called as a counselor in the First Presidency by David O. McKay, but was never added to the Quorum of the Twelve, and thus was never in the line of succession.

A coup de grace?

http://user.xmission.com/~research/central/chorg3.htm

This is the best I could find for the articles

The normal order--the longest-standing apostle succeeds to the presidency--started quite early.

There were exceptions. BY ran the church as president of the Q12 for 2-3 years before he persuaded everyone to make him PS&R. There was also a year or so after BY and before Taylor became PS&R. But the length-of-tenure principle was very important all along. One of the couple of apostles who quit over polygamy and then rejoined--Orson Pratt? Orson Hyde?--had longer tenure that BY but his tenure restarted with his return to the Q12. So BY and some of his allies valued the principle even before he first transition of power.

Regarding coups, they do occur. But they are power-behind-the-throne moves and not overt. The best example was Gordon Hinckley, who assumed actual control of the church in the late Kimball years and wielded it for almost all of the years until his death some three decades later. In moments of lucidity prophets can still make or approve startling policies (the anti-gay-babies rule) even during such a de facto regency, but the regents are still more powerful than the PS&R during these periods.

There is also the question of factions. Since most decisions are made consensually, any particularly organized groups within the Q12 are disproportionately powerful. According to Tom Phillips, the big clusters here are around Nelson, Holland and Oaks.

Applying this to the Monson regime, I'd guess that the PS&R is out to lunch and the Q12 are making the policy decisions. Uchdort is a rock star in the members' minds but lacks factional support. So right now the power centers are Nelson, Holland and Oaks, and those factions make most of the general decisions. I don't think any one person has achieved the stature Hinckley enjoyed in the 80s and 90s, but such a coup is certainly conceivable going forward.

Do the math on seniority, ages, and health to see why Mormondom power gravitates around Nelson, Oaks, and Holland.

Its now official that Monson is sidelined and the counselors of Monson function as the day-to-day figureheads over the Q12. Monson's power in Mormondom is now akin to that held by Joseph Ratzinger (aka Benny 16) in the Vatican. Technically, the Q12 reports to these 2 counselors but they all know that the Q12 president really runs long-range decisions.

Nelson is the Q12 president so they all kiss up to him now. But the next-in-line Oaks is several years younger and not someone that any jr. Apostle, FP counselor, or GA & other church official would want to offend. Thus anyone wanting to have a strong career in Mormonism upper circles will lick Oaks boots.

After Oaks are Ballard and Hales. Both are clearly not very likely to outlive Nelson/Oaks so they do get respect but not boot-licking.

Next comes Holland who is the only one under 80 in the top 7 so anyone thinking long-term is kissing his ass. Thus he has power. And yes I agree with him that he's not a dodo. But he is an asshole.

Looking further down the list you see a cocky Bednar who knows he is way younger than everyone before him and people see this too. So if you know anyone looking to rise high in Mormonism you should tell them to remember to kiss Bednar's ass.

What about Eyring and Uchtdorf right in-between Holland/Bednar? They appear to be irrelevant in the long-term politics games of the FP/12. In the case of Eyring he got put in there by Hinckley and Monson kept him as counselor for continuity. In the case of Uchtdorf its no secret that Monson gave Germans favors and for him it appears that Monson mentored him through all the local->GA positions & once Monson is gone then he will be back in the Q12 for life.

What began with a Monson must end with a Nelson. Homer's Boner.

It happened under the radar when GBH usurped the power from Kimble.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2017 03:42PM by desertman.