We get along. We don't fight. We enjoy each other's company enough to get intimate — intimate enough that it surprises me that the church is still very very important to her. But it is.

It's almost like she wouldn't mind if I was a jackmormon who went to church at least some of the time but didn't criticize it ever. She'd let it slide as long as I kept it to myself and just went to church functions or whatever.

I tried saying that the reason people call Mormonism a cult is because it is so demanding and so uncompromising in those demands. I haven't tried converting (or deconverting) her, and I don't know if I'm doing her a service or a disservice. She's just really chill as TBM girls come. Except that she wants a temple marriage to appease the family (if for no other reasons, I guess). She's convinced she has to do this or his conscience will have no rest. She's very sheltered.

What do you do when you when you loathe the institution, the history, and the teachings of the church but you love your family and would rather keep most of your friends? What should you do when you have expected to marry in the church your whole life and anyone else would basically cause a big rift in your family life? Is it a worthy sacrifice to live what basically feels like a lie to keep the social makeup of your life intact or are you just selling yourself out?

This is where she factors into my life. If I just say yes and do the things she is hoping I will do (propose, get married, have kids, go to church, etc.) would life be tolerable? I've already outed myself to everyone. In many ways it is too late to save my old TBM image. I just want the tension between me and family to go away. I'm certain this will do that.

I know it sounds stupid. But I have so much anxiety about change and meeting new people. I'm still consumed with shame when I think about being recognized living an unchurched life. The tension, the uneasy peace, I have with the family doesn't feel testable. Maybe that, or I empathize too much with them to do anything that will hurt them anymore.

I'm stuck in a weird place in my life where it almost seems like nothing has changed. I'm roommates with old TBM friends who haven't gotten married yet. I live close to the folks. I'm working the same kind of job I had before I went to BYUI...

All this writing and I'm not really talking about her...

It feels like I have to choose between a single, lonely life and a family inside the Mormon church. Are those the only two options? I know here are more options than that, but anything less than marriage inside the covenant seems like it would accomplish the same thing. I thought I already weighed these things and decided radical honesty was best even if it costed me everything.

I don't know what I'm doing. I've resigned but I haven't published it abroad. I'm an atheist in all honesty, but I'm immersed in religion still and I don't mind it all the time. I almost wish someone could convince me there was a God and some kind of afterlife to hope for. My reason for saying this, though, is mostly because this is the social soup that I swim in.

Anyway, she delivered an ultimatum essentially: we need to decide whether or not to pursue this any further. A life with her leads back into the church. She says she doesn't think she could be happy with this big elephant in the room where I am not a believer and oppose many of things in the church's program. I've wondered if she would respond well to the CES letter or something. But I don't want to put her at odds with her family like I feel I have done to myself and mine. It's the heartache of deconversion and the religious rift in your social life that hurt the most. I was grateful to throw away the Mormon gospel, but less prepared for the social fallout.

I get mixed signals from TBMs that it's ok to have doubts and I am still welcome. But the reality is that I'm not welcome if I own my doubts, call them the result of much study, and say that these are my convictions unless evidence can prove otherwise.

Maybe we would both be happier to move on. But she said she feels like she is getting old (she's 25) and she won't meet another guy like me. She likes me. It's intoxicating. I want to reciprocate the feelings, but I'm afraid my feelings are mostly selfish — I'm acting out of anxiety for my own life more than I'm being considerate of hers. And I can't say I love her. Like... yes.

I was warned not to go chasing TBM girls, but I did. So here I am. I'm conflicted on the one hand by a hunger to make everything change and in the other hand I just want things to stay as they are for as long as it can. I found a girl who likes me and after all the years of feeling worthless and unwanted romantically, I don't want to wound it.

I know that many cling to their honesty when they leave, even if it costs them everything. But it's undiplomatic. I dared to think once that if I knew my stuff people would listen. When it became apparent that maybe I could convince two or three in my life, the rest of them would have nothing to do with me if I took the war path against the church. So I shut up and just tried to get along with as many as I could and keep things the way they felt. This is how I've spent my first year post-BYUI. I'm torn about how to treat the church, whether to let it go or say something when the inevitable conflicts arise in my relationships, and whether to push it away or diplomatically shut up for the sake of family and friendship.

I don't know what I want from life right now. I always had this plan laid out for me. And it's not simply a matter of it all being in my hands now. Everyone I have ever known still wants me to stick to the old plan. Even if they say I have my agency, they hope I will not use it to leave the church or go contrary to it. They'll even withhold their fellowship to avoid "supporting my lifestyle".

I feel like the stereotype of a person who paves the church to become as atheist isn't too far removed from the truth. We lose the the support system we once had. We often become lonely and sometimes miserable. Some turn to alcohol or other behaviors he church does not approve of to medicate our sorrows. The people in our life feel vindicated that we have lost the Spirit by our choices, so they don't raise a finger to help in hopes that our misery will drive us back into Christ's only true church.

I like the support and the community of a church. I just don't like the anti-science and the authoritarianism. I can't bring myself to sell out to some quack bishop, with no expertise in anything relevant, commanding me how to live my life.

I've jotted down a lot of conflicting emotions. Any advice, as always, is greatly appreciated, RfM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2017 11:40PM by Cold-Dodger.

start meeting some exmo girls OPie ~


mean-while ~ enjoy your intimate time with TBM girl ~





p. s. ~ tell her you do not do ultimatums







p. p. s. ~ also try Jesus OPie ( srs ) ~


https://youtu.be/HMzZYkEGywI?t=3

With an economy of words, Ziller has nailed it.

You're at a crossroads, again. Some of the greatest thinkers face down polarizing conflicts - sometimes great conflicts - that frame their struggles they contend with.

Your family matters to you. That much is plain from your posts.

You've been going through many growing pains recently trying to find yourself.

If it means your going back and forth with the church, at least you've identified that. It's okay to do that until you find your footing on solid ground. You will get there, just give yourself time and maturity.

If you were to reactivate to please girlfriend, and to marry her in the temple to appease family - does it mean it's going to be a life sentence? Probably not if she's attracted to you already knowing your skepticism.

Go with your heart. Rationality has its place. But now is no time to have to decide between them. You need stability.

I'm not saying the church is going to provide that. But family can if your bond is strong with them, which it is. You need their encouragement and support. You thrive on these inter-personal relationships.

Thanks for sharing what is going on. I am sure it cannot be easy.

Perhaps you can consider this: Although you may think time is passing by--she said that she feels like she is getting old and you said that you are worried about staying lonely--you have a lot of years ahead of you. A lot.

Becoming active and "respectable" will consume much more of your time than I think you want...and will be a commitment for many, many years. You know well enough that activity in the church is nearly all-consuming. If she's worth it, go right ahead.

But my experience is that there are soooo many women out there and while it's not always the easiest thing getting to know someone new, it happens and faster than you may think.

You are "intoxicated" by her but trust me, if becoming active and pretending to believe is not what you want, you should rethink what is happening.

Has she read the CES letter and the essays? You're either going to pay now or pay later. She might have fantasies that you'll eventually become active because, well, why would you not?

Keep in mind she'll want kids. Mormonism will screw them up. You might not want to be part of that.

No no no!!!!! Don't settle. NEVER SETTLE. You will find someone in your own time. Don't compromise who you are so that you're not alone. It's never worth it. Find someone that doesn't belong to a cult and that will love and accept you exactly as you are.

^^^ This.

Don't settle. Someone will come along who has a compatible belief system and you will fall madly in love. I hope you're not married and faking your beliefs when that woman comes along.

I wholeheartedly agree. I spent 5 years in a relationship with a TBM that sounds a lot like your situation. It ultimately ended because we had to be true to ourselves... I know it sucks and it's hard as can be, but be true to yourself.

>>It feels like I have to choose between a single, lonely life and a family inside the Mormon church.

No. There are other options. You could find nevermo girls to date. Or exmo girls. You are choosing to date a TBM. You *know* where that leads. Choose differently.

single does not mean lonely...

You might be dating LDS girls because you know they have fewer options. It's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. I understand the low hanging fruit is easier to pick, but I don't think that's what you want.

I know there's tbm girls I could date if I put on a good priesthood holder act, but do I wanna act my whole life or be myself. It's extra hard in utah not to jump at that low hanging fruit as you said

Starting a marriage as the result of an ultimatum is a recipe for disaster. Kindness and honor require you to allow her to move on.

Gatorman

And it wouldn't be the end of the ultimatums, either. Once she sees that they work...

That it is nice to have someone like you? Oh, I wanted someone to like me. The mormons never even looked at me. I went to work at the place no good mormon girl should work (supposedly). Thiokol. Found out I wasn't such a loser after all. I had nonmormons asking me out ALL THE TIME. I told them no until a very TBM neighbor lady told me to go for it. The very good mormon (and nice guys) guys I worked with said I should date this one who worked with us. I told him no for 9 months and finally went out with him. At that point, I was head over heels in love with him. But I let him go. I had to have a temple marriage. Until HE came into my life, I thought there must be something wrong with me. I was a good little mormon girl, though. I never did more than kiss and hug him, hold hands. No french kissing (back then it was a sin we were supposed to confess). He moved away.

I had nonmormons asking me out all the time. I dated several more, was asked 2 more times to get married, but I held out. At 25, I met my future gay husband. Hell, a mormon actually asked me out. (It isn't like I was ugly either. I was HOT. Even the bishop of the ward told me many times I was the best looking girl in the ward and he couldn't figure out why I wasn't married).

So I got married to my gay husband.

If you think you are lonely single. Be in a bad marriage. You are asking. I hope some of the guys on this board who are still in their nonbelieving/believing marriages and ask how lonely they are.

Believe me, there are nonmormon girls out there. There are a hell of a lot more nonmormon girls than girls that are available to date. So is your girlfriend going to go confess to the bishop what you've been doing and MAKE YOU CONFESS, TOO? You really want to go through that. And the temple is hideous.

And do you want to raise your kids mormon and when you just can't tolerate being mormon anymore, leave the church and have them forever trying to save you and thinking you are a lost pathetic soul because you won't go back to church?

I don't know what you've read about my story, but I'm back with that first nonmormon guy I dated at age 20. He came back into my life when I was 47 and he's still here. I'll be 60 in July. He's 64.

It's very lonely, being in a marriage where you and your spouse aren't in agreement about religion yet is practicing it.

25? The rest of your lives could be a VERY long time.

I wouldn't call it an ultimatum to say that we need to be on the same page about this very central thing or move on our separate ways. This is too central; it's not trivial. Not like saying I want the bathroom painted pink or it's over.

So you are using each other. You're using her for acceptance and companionship, and she's using you to get through the temple. Stuff happens. And, you should be able to tell that she's using you, too, by the ultimatum. "Love" wants you just as you are; it does not want you to morph into something that you are not.

It's really not complicated, at all.

What is horribly complicated is your social anxiety.


Please allow me to take you with me, as I imagine your future with her. Twenty years of ultimatums, and you are numb, and all you want is some peace. But you love your son. But losing her would be losing your connections to everyone. Your son, someone like you, and like Chief - you don't want him to conform, even as she throws herself, screaming and crying, onto the kitchen floor.

You give your son an angry look. Why can't he just do what she wants? Doesn't he care what he's doing to his mother?!

But you are you, CD, and reality hits you like a ton of bricks, as you help your wife up off of the sparkling linoleum.

She is manipulating your son, just as she manipulated you, and she wants him to go on a mission, then to BYU. You love him, and he has told you that he cannot force himself to lie anymore, to say that he believes. He's so much like you, like Chief; he is your home, your heart.


You think that keeping this one girl is a tough choice? Try being an Abraham to you beloved son, her telling you that you must tie him to the pyre, so that you don't lose her connections. I don't know that you can imagine a fatherly bond, yet, and it can't be explained.

Your post makes it obvious that you know the right thing to do, and all of your prior posts pretty much says that you will cave to her now. I'm not judging you, CD, I'm really, sincerely not judging you. I'm loving you, and telling you "my" truth. I want you to survive, to live.

It's clear that you are going in with your eyes open, but please consider that you have this talk with her. No child of yours will be indoctrinated, forced to undo the damage, forced to choose between his family and his freedom of belief, as you have been.

It's a very uncomplicated line to draw. You can sacrifice yourself, but you will never sacrifice your child.

I'm not rich, CD, or I would find a way to get you out of the aquarium, and back into the ocean, where you belong. For now, in reality, all I can say is that losing this one connection may be one of the hardest things you've ever experienced, but you are a man capable of great love, and you deserve to be loved in freedom, and in the fullness of who you are.

Whatever you choose, we are here for you.

Google up the temple video. Ask yourself if this is what you want your wedding to look like. Ask yourself if you want to spend your Sat.s doing this.

Already in this relationship, she's putting the church ahead of your feelings. Think about that.
She knows you want nothing to do with the church or a "temple marriage," but she puts those above you.
Do you think that will change as time goes on?

There's one way to get an idea if it will change or not...
Wait.
It's very "mormon" to want to rush into a marriage shortly after you meet someone. Mostly in order to have celestially-sanctioned sex. So don't do the mormon thing.
Wait.
Have sex anyway. Get to know her better. Take a year. Or two. Or three. See how the church vs. you plays out. There's no hurry.

Wishing you nothing but the best...

Would you really be willing to compromise her integrity before her family and church if she isn't ready to have sex?

You know damn well she is to wait until marriage, or will face the condemnation possibly disfellowshipping, maybe even excommunication if she were to have pre-marital sex.

Why would you put her in that position before she's ready and willing to herself?

They can fall in love first without jumping in the sack. It isn't like theirs would be the first love story that worked out that way.

Good grief.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you really be willing to compromise her
> integrity before her family and church if she
> isn't ready to have sex?
>
> You know damn well she is to wait until marriage,
> or will face the condemnation possibly
> disfellowshipping, maybe even excommunication if
> she were to have pre-marital sex.
>
> Why would you put her in that position before
> she's ready and willing to herself?
>
> They can fall in love first without jumping in the
> sack. It isn't like theirs would be the first love
> story that worked out that way.
>
> Good grief.

Did you even read the OP?
It doesn't appear so.
Good grief.

Amyjo, has it occurred to you that the young woman might actually LIKE sex? It doesn't seem as if cold dodger is forcing her or manipulating her in any way. She's a grown woman (25!).

Good grief again....

;o)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 11:13PM by shannon.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's very "mormon" to want to rush into a marriage
> shortly after you meet someone. Mostly in order
> to have celestially-sanctioned sex.

The OOSO (Office of Officially Sanctioned Orgasms, fmr. Dept. of Marriage and Family) approves of this message.



ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have sex anyway. Get to know her better. Take a
> year. Or two. Or three.

Red alert! Red alert! The OOSO does *not* approve of this message, however.

I was in the same position as you except your TBM was honest (tip my hat). Trust me, the religion will be in the way for your entire marriage and eventually will destroy it. It's actually not complicated, start dating other women.

She may eventually come around to learning the truth.

I wouldn't fault her for being a believer.

If they were to fall in love, it's really up to CD and her to decide their future.

We aren't the captains of his ship. He is.

He won't want to go through life with regrets.

I would ask if I were CD, "is she 'the one?'" As in your soul mate?

If not, keep looking. If she is, don't let her get away.

"To dream the impossible dream . . . to fight, the unbeatable foe . . ." Yeah. Why not just sabotage yourself?

The choice between a single lonely life and a family inside the church???? Please. Those aren't the only two choices. 8 Billion people in the world. Millions of cities. And what you are contemplating now are your only choices?

Plus, life is fluid. It changes everyday. Get back on your surf board and remember it's HOW you ride the waves, not the waves themselves, that gets you back to shore and the hot girl without the hangups waiting for you on the beach AND kids not stuck in a cult.

A long time ago a very wise person said "you can't pray a lie."

So...you've come to a fork in the road, and you're contemplating taking the path most travelled by. My advice: DON'T! I was once in your shoes, head over heels in love with a BYU hottie. Luckily, I wasn't marriage material--not a returned missionary, and from a lower economic class. So she dumped me, and now I thank my lucky stars that she did, because if I had married her, my life today would be nothing more than quiet desperation. I'd never have developed into the person I was meant to be. My friendships would all be conditional; there would be a permanent asterisk affixed to my name. My poor children would be struggling to satisfy the expectations of others instead of becoming autonomous human beings. You sound depressed--as was I, after three long years at BYU. Yes, it was hard breaking away at first; however, once I segued into the real world, I discovered that I'm not such a loser after all. I'm 74 now, and not a day passes that I don't thank my lucky stars that--when I was 25--I failed to measure up to the expectations of others.

Your whole life is ahead of you. Enjoy!

Seeing this thread reminds me that in giving you the honest TBM perspective that in the Church we have got to get you assimilated into reality on the wondrous life you have ahead of you as we get you re-assimilated. These apostates are trying to sugar coat things to make you feel ok and feel that you have self-worth outside of approved correlated channels. However you need to be reminded that the whole purpose of the glorious gospel is to make sure that you know and feel very much that you are nothing but a worthless turd except in cases where the wondrous Correlation program feeds you a tiny bit of self-esteem in order to make sure you are producing sufficient milk/profit for the Lord's kingdom. The whole point of self-esteem is to make you easier to milk, but not in some negative way but for the benefit of the glorious servants that our loving Lord puts over you as Bishops, Stake Presidents, and others with power/authority to micromanage the lives of others for the sake of righteousness. Just think how much stronger the Church will be financially from all the hours of service you give as a chapel janitor, temple janitor, fulfilling callings, paying a full tithe, and most important-of-all in assimilating future children, grandchildren, and others into the wondrous movement that started in that grove of trees when Joseph was willing to take a break from hard farm labor to drop a knee to the ground and contemplate other career channels & feel the entrepreneurial Spirit :) Having you completely assimilated will surely eliminate any need for you to have your own thinking/feelings in exchange for the blessings of a stronger Kingdom. And besides, why should your own needs/feelings matter. It's all about the Church and building it up :)

Now some of the people here may say I'm being harsh on you. Well that's nothing compared to the wondrous blessings of micromanagement that you will face in the decades ahead as Ward Councils and Stake Councils will bless your life in frequent loving discussions amongst themselves about how you committed some pretty grevious sins & thus they are on a higher plane than you lowly turd. You'll look back and think "gosh that Honest TBM guy was pretty easy going on me in comparison to these righteous Bishops who control everything in my life (especially my wife/children)". But you can rest assured that the sex life you enjoyed now in your youth with this TBM gal has now become a sex life where the Bishop is firmly in charge and controlling (i.e. blessing) your life completely :)

So many of the other posters have written essentially what I have to say, but I although I rarely post, I feel strongly about this subject and greatly empathize with your situation.

I married a TBM girl in the late 80's partly because she was then a good looking very Molly Mormon type, and was basically the princess of our Stake in South Dakota, yet mostly because I was lonely and I didn't quite realize then that there truly are many better choices out there. In sum, I got married because a very pretty and popular girl seemed to pay attention to me. I did not realize until many painful years later that what I thought was a fantastic event (our marriage) from it's infancy was probably headed for major issues.

We only knew each other for four months before we were sealed, and that can sometimes be trouble enough, but even if you have known each other for a reasonable time, having differences in philosophy regarding church attendance, tithing (that's a big one!), how the children are raised, whether the boys will be pressured into missions...these are all major issues that can and do cause significant friction and heartbreak down the line

I am sure that if the girl you care for is open and accepting enough, yes, you can work through these issues and possibly can make a decent and happy life both for you two and for your future children. But it is a HUGE risk. One of you may decide to leave any church connection or become more die-hard in the faith, and the delicate balance is upset.
I am impressed by the direct candor and simple emotional angst in your post. You could have been me thirty years ago.
I could go on and on about the consequences of proceedeing into a marriage complicated by partners who have different visions for what marriage and family entails. And I second the thought that ultimatums should NEVER be part of a marriage.

I know it hurts so much to be lonely now, but you will be grateful later. There IS plenty of time.

Postscript: To give you some flavor of what I am saying; about a year and a half after my first marriage spoken of above, I received a call from a girl I knew and dated slightly in college...she wasn't the most pretty girl around, but I still think this girl would have been the most wonderful wife and life partner and perhaps in another life we would have wed. In college she was rather shy and so our relationship tapered off...but after five years her interest in me renewed (we had always kept in touch a bit by snail mail). I still had warm feelings towards her, but by then it was too late. I was already married to the Molly and I suspect this girl from college was terribly disappointed when she called and found out I was married. I still feel bad about that lost opportunity although I am now very happily married to another fantastic woman. I am trying to say that it's hard to be patient, but it will pay off!

You can't live someone else's life. Best advice I can give, I give it to my kids, "live your life by the dictates of your own conscience and not the dictates of others."

I can almost guarantee if you try and compromise your principles you'll regret it later and the fall out will be large.

Only you know what's right for you. But as someone who is married to a TBM, I can tell you that it is very difficult to make a marriage with a Mormon work when you're not a believer.

Mormonism has its nose in every aspect of my marriage and family life...how we raise our children, how we spend our money, how we spend our weekends and even the opinions on religion and politics I can share with my husband.

It sounds like you're thinking of going back to the church if you marry this girl. That may work for awhile. I tried it myself for many years. But it's a position that is extremely difficult to maintain long term.

You said the situation "is complicated." Maybe when things are right and meant to be, it shouldn't be so complicated. You need to be fair to yourself, but I also think it's important to be fair to her too. If she really wants a life with a TBM, is it fair to pretend to be one when you're not?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2017 10:20PM by want2bx.

You need to see more of the big world out there. You have more choices than you can even imagine!

With more information--knowing more girls--you will be more certain, and things won't seem "complicated" anymore.

The people I know who are happily married, say that they didn't really didn't have to think about marrying their soul-mate--they just did. Even one of the Mormon apostles (I forget who) said that he didn't even pray about marrying his wife. None of my kids did, either. It was a no-brainer. They were 28, 36, and 38 when they got married, and they each really did find the perfect person.

You have some good advice, here, about taking your time, and thinking of your future children.

Why don't you discuss all of this with HER? You should be able to communicate honestly with your future wife, and it does seem like you are play-acting. You need to understand more of what she is thinking. It does seem like she doesn't care what YOU want--she wants that temple marriage, even if you don't.

If only you were a few years older, if only you had more experience, if only you had traveled more...and it might be too late. Your life is only just beginning!

Whatever it is you want out of life, Dodger, you are highly unlikely to find it in the mormon community - certainly you are not going to find happiness and fulfillment there - especially when you witness your children getting sucked into it.


But, there is no reasoning with a man in the throes of the love-stupids. After you become stuck in the mormon morass, soul crushed and horizons gone, RFM will be here to dispense solace, whilst you trudge along the Treadmill to Zion.


Or, you could skip the whole experience and reach for something real, someplace real, with someone who appreciates the real.


Why choose otherwise?


Door number One, or Door number Two?