1. That Jesus was born to a virgin.

2. That Jesus was the Son of God.

3. That Jesus was resurrected.

4. That Jesus walked on water.

5. That Mary was physically impregnated by God.

6. That Moses parted the Red Sea.

7. That Jesus turned water into wine.

8. That Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.

9. That an angel named Moroni visited JS.

10. That JS was visited by God and Jesus.

*** Please post any other suggestions.

0. That a "god" exists.

:)

...if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. (I Corinthians 15)

Edit: I prefer stating that this is an extraordinary claim, but not an incredulous one. Hie2Kolob, of course, will take issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2017 05:27PM by caffiend.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Edit: I prefer stating that this is an
> extraordinary claim, but not an incredulous one.
> Hie2Kolob, of course, will take issue.

You know me so well :)

I find it "incredulous" (unable to be believed) because of a lack of evidence to show it true.

I find it "extraordinary" because in the experience of billions and billions of human beings, humans don't resurrect. One doing so would, indeed, be "extraordinary."

So I'll sort of agree with you -- it's both!
<grin>

Bringing up belief in God when you're on the board is like the sound of the can opener to my cat at 6:00 PM.

;<0

Well, for Christianity, I was going to say that Christ arose from the dead; but my two bros beat me to it.

For Mormonism, it's that God appeared to Joseph Smith.

These are two beliefs that the entire faiths rest on.

Big hugs, all!

Let me know when & where. I've been looking for a good excuse to get to the intermountain West. We'll have to get Hie out of California, though.

I'd love for the four of us to get together to laugh and share good times. But, Caffiend, we've got to get you up to Mt. Palomar to see the telescope and the mountain.

I'm looking forward to the first cup of coffee with my bros!

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let me know when & where. I've been looking for a
> good excuse to get to the intermountain West.
> We'll have to get Hie out of California, though.

I leave now and then, when there's a good reason.
Meeting up with you guys -- that would be a good reason :)

Will the mods or administrators forward a personal email to somebody? There are several people I'd like to have off-board contact with. I'm thinking of sending asking RfM to forward my email to others, so that others can respond to me with theirs --or not, if they so elect.

Should we stop chatting and start actual planning, I propose we consider a long weekend, if you guys can take a vacation Monday or Friday.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2017 11:21AM by caffiend.

edit: connection made! :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2017 02:18PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Lots of topics -- politics, religious differences, the paranormal, dozens more -- generate lots of discussion, criticism, etc.

Why should that topic be any different?

Do you think such a belief should go undiscussed, unchallenged, unexamined?

I don't. :)

I like you bringing up your beliefs, you have no need to apologize. I am just as interested in why people believe as I am in why people do not. I like examining all sides.

I think it is incredulous and extraordinary.

For the record, incredulous and extraordinary claims are sometimes determined to be true:)

For example: the notion that the earth was round could be described as both incredulous and extraordinary.

rebeljamesdean Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> For example: the notion that the earth was round
> could be described as both incredulous and
> extraordinary.


For the record, people that relied on observation and evidence knew the earth was round back in Pythagoras time.

It was the people that relied on Faith that found the idea that the earth was round incredulous.

Same with the idea that the earth was not the center of the universe.

Agreed.

The Joseph Smith Jr story about an angel leading him to what he called the Nephite Record. Totally preposterous.

Gordon B. Hinckley said in 2003 that "the Church is either true, or it is a fraud."

That statement continues to give me pause.

Eve being made from Adam's rib.

Talking Snakes and snakes turning into staffs.

That the whole earth was under water.

That the Book of Mormon wars involved millions of people.

That Oaks and Bednar are human.

If god is god than none of these things are that big of a deal.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.

God requiring specific handshakes and passwords does push the line more than most.

Ooooooooooooooooor.

Speaking in tongues has always been a bit strange.

Blood Atonement (the idea that Christ's atonement can't get rid of ALL sins, and only the spilling of the sinner's blood could do so.. this in early LDS doctrine and put in practice by Brigham and his followers via 'righteous' murders).

Christ's atonement - our sins are washed away because he suffered and died for our sins to be redeemed.

The idea of 'sins', esp. inherited sin. And things like fornicating being sinful. I.e. something that counts against us in the record book God is keeping on us.

That God sees everyone and everything we do and judges all of it.

That God is flesh and blood and procreates with an untold (unknown) number of wives in the 'Celestial Kingdom' and makes 'spirit children' this way, billions of them.

That God lives near a star called Kolob. And that Joseph Smith was the only one this was ever revealed to by God.

That Joseph Smith found 'golden plates' buried in a hillside in New York state and that they were written by ancient Americans in Egyptian characters and that he translated them with stones and magic glasses.

That Joseph Smith was a prophet (and all the prophets of the LDS church succeeding him have also been prophets called by God).

That God hadn't spoken to anyone but Joseph (or shown himself to anyone but Joseph, a 14 year boy) in thousands of years.

That God is a man. That 'God' exists. Esp. in the concept of a man, a supreme being, a ruler over us, like a king, who created the earth and universe all on his own (well in LDS doctrine Jesus helped him).

That Eve was made from the rib of Adam and that Adam and Eve were the original humans.

That only men can talk to God and not women.

Mormons believe this is because Eve went against God's commandments and ate the apple. Even though God then forgave her and he and Adam acknowledged that they actually had to eat the apple to know good and evil so that they could procreate. Because apparently this knowledge is necessary in order to have a desire to do so (procreate). This would assume that sex is then evil(?)

But still God punished Eve, in spite of the fact that procreation was also one of God's commandments. And eating the apple was the only way to obey this one. So then all women after Eve are cast out of God's favor so much so that only men can talk to God. And women must obey men (with the priesthood) as God's representatives on earth.

The idea that God gives 'commandments' that we must obey, BUT that we also have freedom to choose. But we are supposed to obey commandments. So there is actually no choice. OR only 'right' and 'wrong' choices and if you are wrong you are eternally damned.

There is only heaven and hell or heaven, purgatory and hell (in Mormonism this is 3 'kingdoms' Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial) after death.

That hell is full of fire and 'brimstone' (whatever that is!) and that we'll be tortured for eternity by Satan because we disobeyed God. (He's holds those kinds of eternal grudges!) Even though Satan really just wanted us to all be equal and good and not have to go through this terrible existence where men and women torture and murder each other (often saying God told them to do so) because of our confusion and the trials God (the sadist) loves to give us (for our 'growth').. So I am not sure if Satan's plan was just to help us out and had a kind of communist agenda, why he would then be so evil as to be in charge of punishing us for eternity. if Satan and God disagreed so much (or actually he and Jesus did but God liked Jesus' plan bet) so that God cast Satan out of 'heaven'.. then WHY would Satan work to meet out God's own punishments for him????

That you need secret handshakes and codes to get into Heaven/Celestial kingdom.

That God is polygamist and that polygamy is the law of heaven. Even though nearly an equal number of men and women are born on earth. And Mormon couples are promised to be sealed together forever after this life. But many of those men can also become polygamist gods in the next life.

That anyone can be 'sealed' together forever via secret temple ceremonies.

Baptizing living people on behalf of dead people.

That all 'sins' are washed away when being dunked under water by a priest.

That you can only sin or be held liable for your sins by God starting at age 8.

That you should be baptized on your 8th birthday to wash away your sins even though none of the sins up to that point counted! (Why not wait until you have some good years of sinning under your belt first?)

The need to 'anoint' men and women entering the LDS temple by touching their privates with oil, in order to purify and bless said privates. (Using religion to traumatize, molest and control individuals).

I am sure I could think of more, but I think this is a pretty good list. :)

That Mormons are family oriented.

LOL! I know I LOVE how they always say they care so much about family and yet do all they can to sabotage family units.

I say Shoplifter because you have stolen my Post and made it your own. :)

Well done - very impressive. Someone who has thoroughly answered one of my questions. A+

LOL!

I want to also add one more..

This one has really been annoying me lately..

WHY does God as a 'perfected being' exhibit so many human imperfect ego traits.

Such as the need for vengeance, the need to punish, the need to be worshipped, glorified, exalted, king, etc..

Also why would a perfected being use a system of hierarchy and patriarchy as the perfected model of heaven or as His system on earth? Wouldn't a perfected being not have any need of any such system?

Also why would a perfected being have to identify with a specific gender?

Glad I could help, and thanks! :)

This is a very interesting thought from Shapeshifter....

"That hell is full of fire and 'brimstone' (whatever that is!) and that we'll be tortured for eternity by Satan because we disobeyed God. (He's holds those kinds of eternal grudges!) Even though Satan really just wanted us to all be equal and good and not have to go through this terrible existence where men and women torture and murder each other (often saying God told them to do so) because of our confusion and the trials God (the sadist) loves to give us (for our 'growth').. So I am not sure if Satan's plan was just to help us out and had a kind of communist agenda, why he would then be so evil as to be in charge of punishing us for eternity. if Satan and God disagreed so much (or actually he and Jesus did but God liked Jesus' plan bet) so that God cast Satan out of 'heaven'.. then WHY would Satan work to meet out God's own punishments for him????"

Humm..

...not to mention that it's hard to find any "justice" in the promise of eternal punishment for finite offenses.

:)

EXACTLY!

That the Book of Mormon is an actual historical account.

There are some things that I don't feel have sufficient evidence for me to believe in them, but am open to believing if convincing evidence should ever come to light. With the Book of Mormon, I don't believe it is even remotely possible that any evidence could come to light.

Curious as to why you just pick on the Christians and Mormons....

I'd guess RJD knows that the three most represented groups here are ex-mormons, christians, and agnostics/atheists. So the question applies to the most represented groups here...

I didn't think I was picking on anyone or any group.

However, atheists and agnostics do not make claims, so they cannot be incredulous or extraordinary.

Furthermore, if Jesus did return, and it was proven empirically, it would take atheists and agnostics about 5 seconds to change their mind.

The LDS is based on Christianity, so there is a natural link there. This being an recovery from Mormonism board it makes sense to discuss outrageous claim of TSCC and its base religion.

There are over 4 thousand religions in the world today, is the OP supposed address them all?

All of 'em!

Maybe when I retire, but that is 20 years away:)

I think one of the most ridiculous claims is the trinity.

Talk about trying to force stories together. Yeah, they are three, but one. Sort of. Yeah, that's the ticket!


We'll call them Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. They are the creator, preserver and destroyer of the universe. They are also aligned as the transcendent Godhead.

Oh wait. Wrong 3-in-one. We want the ghost, human and sky daddy version.

I don't understand how people can recognize mythology in other religions, but not their own.

Dagny - they have simply emotionally invested too much.

Logic will never trump emotion, never has and never will.

This thread got me thinking..

Why is it that (at least the Mormon God version) God when he created Adam, only thought to create Eve after he saw Adam alone and thought something was missing. And that he needed a companion.

But it was like he had just thought up 'woman' on the spot. As if it was a whole new creation. This would assume that God did not create Adam or anyone else via procreative sex with a woman (as Mormons believe). Clearly the old testament God worked on his own. But Mormons believe in the old testament as well (But that it has parts missing).

But Mormons don't fill in the blanks here. In the temple film creation version God and Jesus look at Adam and wonder what to do. And they together think of 'woman' again as it it were some kind of novel thought. As if they had no prior knowledge of 'woman' before that moment.

So of course that doesn't make any sense at all.

And the whole idea that God 'had a plan' for us and for this world prior to creation, why would anything along the way be a surprise? He had a plan. So he already planned to create Adam and Eve, put them in the garden, set a trap for them that will 'test' them but really he knows they will disobey because it's part of the plan. And the way he set things up even if they don't eat the fruit they will be disobeying one of his commandments.

And Lucifer was part of the plan, though Lucifer seems to not know it. That everything he does in rebellion is actually part of God's 'plan.' And so he knew it all in advance. So what' the point?

It honestly, the more you look at these stories, it just sounds like God is some kind of sadist, playing weird games with us. Setting up traps, knowing how we'll respond, sitting back, letting it unfold, letting us suffer, pretending we have 'choices' when we don't really have any real freedoms.

Does he just like to sit and watch us and laugh?

BUT he loved us SO much he sent his ONLY BEGOTTEN (what DOES that MEAN???) son to come to earth and suffer and die for us.. us lowly poor awful sinners. So that we don't what? Have to suffer? (not true, clearly billions of people suffer every day).. Not be accountable for our sins? Also does not seem to be true. Or no, it's that he'll forgive us because of what Christ did? If we 'accept' Christ, meaning if we blindly obey those who claim to know Christ and God personally?

None of it makes sense! It's true it's just all emotional manipulation.

shapeshifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread got me thinking..
>
> Why is it that (at least the Mormon God version)
> God when he created Adam, only thought to create
> Eve after he saw Adam alone and thought something
> was missing. And that he needed a companion.

Well, that part is "biblical" at least (not that I give bible stories any credence...):

Genesis 2:
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

god knows all of your thoughts ? then why do you pray ?

Angel with a drawn sword commanding JS to practice plural marriage. He had already developed a reputation for philandering long before the angel with drawn sword story.

-Joseph being able to run through the woods,being chased by robbers while carrying what would amount to 200 lbs of gold plates. And, able to do so in a single bound over logs and other obstacles, in spite of his limp from a previous operation to remove infected bone from his femur.

-Blood Atonement

-People living on the moon dressed like Quakers and people living on the Sun.

-Joseph being able to run through the woods,being chased by robbers while carrying what would amount to 200 lbs of gold plates. And, able to do so in a single bound over logs and other obstacles, in spite of his limp from a previous operation to remove infected bone from his femur.

LOL! Valkyriequeen, that one cracked me. Thank you!
(never thought about the weight factor before!)

-People living on the moon dressed like Quakers and people living on the Sun.

Love this one too! :)

All good ones:)

I remembered the story of the gold plates and just how heavy that would've been, because we're in the middle of a home project and one of the things we needed was floor tile mortar. A 50 pound bag, and I couldn't even begin to try to lift that thing off of the shelf! :-D

incredulous refers to people

God killed 2.5 million, Satan killed 10...we're supposed to worship god.

That a loving god would cast off the majority of his children because they didn't accept his son as their savior.

Of course, this is the same god who drown almost every person and animal in the world in a fit of anger.

That a loving god wiped out millions of people; men, women, as well as children, in this hemisphere at the time of the crucifixion; especially when Jesus said: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Me thinks Father in Heaven's not too much into forgiving, and yet He and Jesus are supposed to have the same personality!

The Celestial Kingdom. Here you have a large, supposedly fine family in "heaven", but once again, HF shows a bit of a temper by kicking out 1/3 of his kids because of differences of opinion! Talk about "my way or the highway!" I thought heaven was supposed to be a happy, relaxing place; not a place of family arguments and bickering! :-D

I have no problem with there being a supreme being. Just that he takes attendance.

Whatever they are, I don't know that we teach them anymore.

That wearing your temple garments will protect you if you are in an accident.