Just wanted to say a heartfelt "thank you" to all who commented.

My wife works remotely for a marketing firm, so she'll be able to continue with her existing employment. Also alleviates the need for a full-time nanny.

Our plan is to fly out on Thursday and stay through the weekend. This will be our very first trip (all the interviews were conducted over Skype). We're going to rent a car, drive around to various neighborhoods, and get a feel for the place before making any decision.

Think of an ant farm. Seemingly crazy running around with no purpose. City traffic where people cut you off because they are special. Driving 80 mph down the freeway in a blinding blizzard. Busy-body neighbors who won't leave you alone. Everything controlled by tscc. A culture of cult. Take your time making a choice. Drive south to Nephi. Maybe Sanpete county. If you can tolerate an hour drive to work, look at smaller communities that far away. Good luck...

I think that's bad advice. Small towns would make you feel isolated. Consider Salt Lake county. You would be going against traffic. I know several non mormons from out of state who do that just fine.

Flying out Monday. Was saving Sunday for sightseeing in SLC (we're going to stay there). Going to the Jazz game on Friday.

Need a good bar recommendation on Saturday to see my Rangers play.

That is one plus for Utah. The mormons are in church. Ski lines are much, much shorter. Theaters and restaurants aren't crowded. Traffic is much better.

I don't live in SLC, but I'm sure others here will have recommendations for bars in SLC.

I would recommend Whiskey Street. It is on Main between 3rd and 4th South.

I just want to point out that a quick visit and driving around won't give you any idea of the true dysfunction that infests this area. If you do decide to move there, make sure you have a plan-B in case you need to leave earlier than expected.

Other parts of Utah may be friendlier to non-Mormons (Salt Lake, Logan, Park City, St. George), but you're going to have a hard in Provo. Some have suggested living in Salt Lake and commuting down, but you really don't want to waste that much time commuting when you're working for a startup or small company.

And remember, as a non-Mormon you will not be trusted. Most corridor Mormons will always believe that there is something wrong with you because you haven't joined their church. Corridor Mormons are different than any Mormons you may have met on the east coast. Trust me: take a look at my moniker and realize that I know the difference.

but it's one blind man's description of the elephant.

Thus spake Mujun.

On the other thread, a board member advised you to investigate whether or not the principals of the company are all BYU grads. If they are, you may be putting yourself into a position where there is an in group and an out group within the company.

Yes, the founders are all BYU grads. They also all have listed "Humanitarian Volunteer at LDS Church" on their LinkedIn profiles, so assuming they're part of the faithful flock.

There are other foreigners at the company. I interviewed with a Chinese guy who's only been in the U.S. for a few years. There's an Indian guy as well.

"Humanitarian Volunteer at LDS Church"

Wow... Sorry, I've never lived in Utah outside of my time in the MTC, so I can't really comment on that, but this? Is that a new way to list "missionary" on a Linked In profile?

In case you're unaware, LDS young men are encouraged to go on a "Mission" straight out of High School. They spend 2 years trying to convert unsuspecting people in the area that they've been sent.

This is not "Humanitarian" volunteering... Unless they are referring to something else, which is possible, but I'm not sure what else that could mean, other than the weekly church building cleaning that everyone tries to avoid at all costs.

I will say that the church does have volunteer opportunities at canning facilities and farms, but this often means volunteering to work for a for-profit arm of the church's umbrella corp, and also would not be "Humanitarian" in nature.

Maybe I should give them more benefit of the doubt, because who doesn't pad their profile a bit. this just made me laugh though.

I will throw in my two cents that it is potentially possible to work with LDS members in a business env. You're just going to have to be very good at maintaining your boundaries and if you want coffee, make sure you bring your own, there won't be a coffee maker in the break room.

Anyway, good luck with your search. Wherever you end up, I do hope you and your family are happy.

Yes, it's their missionary service.

That's awesome, "Humanitarian"... I served for 2 years in Korea. I spent precious little time on "Humanitarian" efforts. We spent an hour or so each week teaching English... Which was really just having people read the Book of Mormon in English while we corrected pronunciation or holding conversations with people while we tried to get them to take the "Discussions" to convert them. And then it was only when we were stationed in a larger city, so I only regularly did that for 5 - 6 months.

I will say that in one area, we did volunteer at an orphanage for an hour a week, for about a month, that was as close to "Humanitarian" as we got.

The rest of the time I mainly stood on a a street corner trying to give out Book of Mormons to annoyed people who were just trying to go about their day... And avoiding the drunks... avoiding the drunks were an important part of my day.

If these guys served their Missions in the states, it's unlikely that they did any "Humanitarian" service at all. Some do volunteer at a library or similar, but most are just trying to convert anyone who will let them.

Be aware, part of keeping your boundaries will be recognizing that depending on how devout these guys are they may spend a considerable amount of effort trying to convert you and your family... "Hey, want to come over for dinner?" Bam... Missionaries will be there. "Hey, a bunch of us are going to go do (insert sport here, basketball, fishing, volleyball, bike trip, etc), do you want to join us?" Oh look, we're meeting at the church and everyone else is a member, Oh and is that the Bishop you're being introduced to?

Maybe none of that will happen, I hope it doesn't it's such a pain and it feels crappy to constantly be telling people, "I have no interest in your religion, now can we get back to project xyz, I have some questions about..."

I'm just very wary...

At risk of outing myself, I'm going to assume that the devout aren't on these forums.

Yes, will keep watch for any overly friendly behavior. They're taking me and my wife shooting. Neither of us has ever fired a gun. Pretty excited.

I think assuming that the devout don't post here is a pretty safe assumption.

Do keep a look out, watch your boundaries, it's OK to say "No". You seem to have a good head on your shoulders, so you'll probably do OK. Keep in mind they can sneak up on you, things can be going along fine and suddenly you're invited to something that you've done with them before and you find yourself shaking hands with an 18 year old with a name tag touting his "Elder" title promising to explain the eternities for you.

Anyway, good luck!

The definition of a "humanitarian" is "a person who seeks to promote human welfare; a philanthropist, altruist."

Listing their Mormon missions wherein they attempt to convert for their religion is really stretching the definition of that word, humanitarian, until it breaks into a lot of pieces.

You will learn that Mormons have their own meanings for words and love to play lot of semantic games in order to make their selfish purposes sound noble. This one is a gem.

Just go in with your eyes wide open.

Since you specifically mentioned wanting to hike in your original thread, I would recommend looking into living in Suncrest.

It is on top of the mountain that sits between the Salt Lake And Utah counties, and has easy access to both sides. There are beautiful hikes all over the place, you are up above the inversion in the winter time, and most of my new neighbors lately have been from out of state, moving in to work in the growing tech industry.

Again, live in Salt Lake, take train to Provo.

Be sure to find out if the top people in the company you will work for are Mormons. I suspect they are - why would non-Mormons want to start a company in Provo?

If they are, I predict:
- there will be no coffee pot in the employee break room
- if you bring coffee from home in a thermos, you will get dirty looks when you drink it
- you will be silently passed over for promotions and other perks, in favor of Mormon co-workers. They won't give you an explanation, but their thinking will be along the lines of "Brother Max needs the money more than Mocurious - he has a non-working wife and eight kids to support" or "Brother Paul has two kids on a mission - he needs the money and we need to support his efforts." or "Mr. Mocurious isn't a member, so he isn't paying ten percent of his gross income in tithing, but Brother Jack is, so it works out even."
- You will not be told what others at the company are paid, and you will be asked not to tell others

If you are invited to someone's home for dinner, DO NOT bring a bottle of wine. Better: a box of candy (Mormons love candy and sugary sodas).

Remember that most of Utah's laws were passed by the Mormon-dominated legislature. You will be living in a theocracy.

You can buy beer, but it has a low alcohol content, by law.

You will need to learn a new language, "Mormonspeak." For starters, look at http://packham.n4m.org/glossary.htm

"why would non-Mormons want to start a company in Provo?"

Besides the obvious wanting to stay close to friends and family, I'd imagine the same logic that goes into any decision on where to domicile a company - access to labor, resources, and markets.

My general impression is that there's a large supply of (relatively) cheap educated labor, especially in technology. A BYU grad can migrate to SF, NYC, or Austin, but given the opportunity to stay close to home and live the Mormon life, they'll settle for a lower paycheck (which is fine since cost of living is low). Plus, can't hurt that there's a large pool of foreign language speakers and few people show up hungover in the morning.

Also worth noting that these guys are in their early 30s. I'm in my late 20s. Could it be possible there's a generational gap in terms of standard business practices?

"Also worth noting that these guys are in their early 30s. I'm in my late 20s. Could it be possible there's a generational gap in terms of standard business practices?"

There's going to be an "honesty gap" in their business practices. MANY Utah County businesses end up with subpoenas.
As mentioned by another poster, you'll be passed up for promotions, no mater how good you are. They'll use you for your knowledge and then relegate you to mid level forever unless you change religion. Look to live in Sandy or Draper and drive 30 miles each way. Do not live in Utah County.
Read "Utah Business" Magazine. Google "Utah Company of the Year" and "Utah Businessman of the Year" Half those are under investigation, indicted or in jail. BEWARE!

If anyone you work with is a Stake President or Bishop(church jobs), they most likely will get promotions and top jobs before anyone else.

You most likely won't be going out for cocktails afterwork. Mormons are taught to spend Saturday getting ready for Sunday. So not a lot of fun on Saturday either. It's all church all the time. Some of them are quite boring because of this.

You'll probably get hit up to buy all kinds of MLM products. Buyer beware. Mormons aren't the most honest people you'll ever meet.

Oh yeah, don't call work people on Monday night. That's family night and there's pretty much a no phone call rule.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 04:41PM by janis.

Has anyone mentioned that Utah County (Provo, Orem, among others) is The Most Mormon Place in the world? You can escape Mormonism in Salt Lake City or Ogden, but in Provo people will shove Mormonism right in your face. There will be no escape until you drive out of the valley. The setting--backdrop of the Wasatch Front of the Uinta chain--is wonderful. On the flip side, there is a persistent water shortage in the entire greater region, and Utah Lake is not very nice, being only about 10-20 feet deep.

I'm finding it generally shocking that in none of these "best places to live" surveys even mention Provo's Mormon culture. It's completely glossed over.

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/03/provo-utah-is-the-best-place-to-live-according-to-gallups-ranking-of-americas-cities/359530/

Because those surveys are based elsewhere. They looks at data, not personal experience. I was born in NY. Lived in TX and CA. You cannot believe or describe how weird Utah is until you live here. I would run like hell from any company where top management is made up of BYU grads. I'd feel better joining a company run by ex-cons and prostitutes.

You've got to be wary of surveys that are based on self-reported data, which seems likely in this case (note the "interviews").

Because they are programmed/trained/raised to believe that they are supposed to be supremely happy, and that no one outside the church is as happy as they are, Mormons tend to self-report a much rosier picture of themselves and their culture than objective measures can verify.

As a case in point, note that Utah has one of the highest (perhaps _the_ highest) per capita use of prescription antidepressants in the country.

MoCurious Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm finding it generally shocking that in none of
> these "best places to live" surveys even mention
> Provo's Mormon culture. It's completely glossed
> over.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/
> 03/provo-utah-is-the-best-place-to-live-according-
> to-gallups-ranking-of-americas-cities/359530/

As a writer, I can tell you that if I accepted an assignment to write an article for THE ATLANTIC on "the best places to live" in the USA, I wouldn't mention any of this either. If Provo is already pre-designated as a "best place" by the advertising/ upper editorial staff (and as a writer, you don't necessarily know of any business arrangements/agreements that go along with this), then you highlight the positives, and you most certainly do not detail, or probably even mention, negatives which are the result of the leading religion in the area.

(The same would apply, similarly, to writing about any number of proud cities and towns in the Deep South, where the culture, the daily awareness of the Confederacy, and "the way things USED to be" [before the Civil War], is a living part of the oxygen everyone breathes.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 03:18PM by Tevai.

If those are truly RM's who are going to be hiring you and active TBM's, beware!

They see a prospective convert coming their way. And.it's.you.

Don't however fret too much since you've got the credentials and expertise they're looking for.

Just go in with your eyes wide open. As common sense prevails, going into a job is akin to a marriage. Do you want to be wedded to these fellows five days a week?

It may be worth it if Utah suits your lifestyle. It would mine, but not Provo (that's just me, I was never into BYU including as a LDS - I went to state university in Idaho and New York instead.)

Test them when you go to the interview. Have some of your own questions prepared. Not to get personal of course, and don't bring up religion (it may sound like you're discriminating them.) Just be on your toes, and observant. Take it all in. The ambiance. Atmosphere. Are they open-minded? Tolerant of diversity? Liberal or conservative? Middle of the road? Etc. If they match/share your values close enough, it might work out just fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 03:53PM by Amyjo.

"Test them when you go to the interview. Have some of your own questions prepared. Not to get personal of course, and don't bring up religion (it may sound like you're discriminating them.) Just be on your toes, and observant. Take it all in. The ambiance. Atmosphere. Are they open-minded? Tolerant of diversity? Liberal or conservative? Etc. If they match/share your values close enough, it might work out just fine."

C'mon Amyjo, you know better. They'll tell him whatever they think he wants to hear. They're RM's for christsake. They're professional liars with no ethics.

"Test them when you go to the interview. Have some of your own questions prepared. Not to get personal of course, and don't bring up religion (it may sound like you're discriminating them.) Just be on your toes, and observant. Take it all in. The ambiance. Atmosphere. Are they open-minded? Tolerant of diversity? Liberal or conservative? Etc. If they match/share your values close enough, it might work out just fine."

C'mon Amyjo, you know better. They'll tell him whatever they think he wants to hear. They're RM's for christsake. They're professional liars with no ethics.

StillAnon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> C'mon Amyjo, you know better. They'll tell him
> whatever they think he wants to hear. They're RM's
> for christsake. They're professional liars with no
> ethics.

Yeah...but he can check out the presence or absence of garmie lines on the people he is talking to, as well as if there is a coffee maker in the office.

Which leads to an interesting question: If someone were to list (or photograph) tell-tale signs of a TBM workplace, what would they be??? (I'm thinking of workplace equivalents to the stereotypical Mormon temple photo on the living room wall of Mormon residences.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 02:21PM by Tevai.

Good question. I have seen many offices of execs from mormon run companies. BYU diploma. Framed Mish pic on bookcase. Professional family pic of mom and dad +6 kids all dressed in white. No coffee machine. No designated smoking area. Well used, leather bound BofM on display on side table. "Return with honor" sign somewhere lurking.

That's very bigoted of you to say that. You don't know these people from Adam. Not all Mormons are from the same cookie cutter, even if it seems that way to you.

Some may be inactive or ex-Mormons for all you know.

It isn't wise to prejudge someone because they went to the Y or are RM's. Look at all the people on this board who did both.

I don't judge people by what religion they ascribe to. I judge them by their character.

Just because I hate Mormonism doesn't mean I hate those who are Mormons. I have too many LDS relatives to do that!

There are good apples and bad, even among Mormons. I had some wonderful friends when I was LDS who were LDS. It was the bad apples that spoiled the whole barrel IMO.

I totally agree with you Amyjo. I, and most of my lifelong friends are all BYU grads and RM's. Very few of us grew up in Utah, we are all apostates of varying intensity, but mostly we just don't care. This young man who is thinking of coming here has to read the situation during his interview in Provo. An interview is two- way and maybe he should ask the new employers how they feel. Anyhow, I agree with you, there have been so many stereotypic, bigoted responses on this particular thread. Good on you for calling them out. I concur.

I was an exMo and worked with several neverMos who were relatively high up in the company at WordPerfect, 25 years ago. Coffee was sold at the snack bar/cafeteria. The place was pretty Mo, but there were more than a few employees who were on the doubter side, and I didn't see it make any discernible difference in getting on at the company. Tech companies have to be pretty meritocratic, otherwise, they don't survive. Hell, many of them don't survive anyway.

I did see some sleazy business practices, but nothing that put anyone in prison.

There are lots of tech companies near Draper/Lehi, so they can hire people from either valley - Utah or SL. I'd recommend living near there. Techies tend to change companies with fair regularity, so if you come, odds are good you will end up working near Point of the Mountain at some point.

I lived in Sandy and commuted to Lindon (north Orem). Now I'd probably go to Bluffdale or maybe even Lehi, or South Jordan.

I later lived in Holladay, and recently moved to downtown SLC, to see if I liked urban living. So far, quite liking it. I grew up on the east coast, which I think helps. I think many locals become sensitized to dealing with Mormons and overreact. I let a lot of that roll off my back. Very nearly everyone I am friends with is an exMo or neverMo, often who also moved here from out of state. If you want to do lunch while here, my email is listed on my rfm profile.

I can second this. I work for a tech company in north Utah County. Sometimes I feel like management goes out of its way to show it's not a bunch of stuffy mormons. They might even over compensate. Most people I know don't find the Mormon factor too overbearing. I live in south Salt Lake county

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Tech companies have to be pretty
> meritocratic, otherwise, they don't survive.
> Hell, many of them don't survive anyway.
>
I must confess that as someone who lives in Silicon Valley, who used to work in tech (including two startups), and who has a spouse who works for a major tech firm, I tend to think that younger Mormons in particular, if they want their tech startups to succeed, are going to be committed to go out of their way to NOT discriminate in today's workplace, whether that be religious, racial, etc. I'm not saying there are no exceptions, of course--people are fallible, and bad things happen in every workplace, including the uber-liberal community college where I currently work.

Tech, however, is extremely competitive about finding the best talent they can afford to hire, especially on the engineering/design side. People in Silicon Valley, at least, tend to keep their religion out of the workplace, other than that you'll see a conservative Muslim woman wearing a headscarf or a Sikh man wearing a turban. Religion as a topic, though, or as a consideration when hiring, seems far from most people's minds at work. Making money is the all-powerful God in tech.
Of course, I am living in the tech hub of SV--not in Provo, I realize!

All of this is not to say, though, that I wouldn't be wary of **living** in a heavily TBM area, especially with children. You (the OP) probably have a lot more to worry about regarding which neighborhood you live in than what company you work for.

squatters and red rock brewing co. are both pretty fun in downtown. if you are in provo, it's not far to go to springville to strap tank brewing company, it's pretty new and pretty cool. best wishes and good luck

Am I the only one that knows the Board is being played?

I am a non-mo . . . come on ex-mormons, a little skepticism might be in order . . . don't fall down the rabbit hole again, albeit rather inconsequential in this case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 04:25PM by thingsithink.

Why would it matter one way or another?

Utah drivers are awful. They all want to be first in line, and they have no problem doing what it takes to get there.

I learned to drive in Los Angeles. I've driven in or at least through a number of big cities. The scariest was DC, actually, inside the city itself. A noticeable number of drivers from places where traffic laws are suggestions at best. Next scariest was 485 around Atlanta because all the trucks get diverted there from downtown.

But when I moved here I drove through Salt Lake along the way as I'd never been there and thought it might be interesting, and for the descent into the valley and all the way through the city I was SCARED. They were aggressive!

They still drive aggressively here as tourists but it's hard to be too aggravating in a town where you can't get above 25 anywhere, except that they don't even pretend to respect the four-way stops. Dude, I was here first, I have the right of way, but if you must have it, go.

I think DC has the most incompetent driving in the country. The beltway there is bad as well.

Drivers in NYC and Boston are aggressive but competent.

Go to your nearest Lowes and buy a generous supply of Mormon-B-Gone for your front yard. If that doesn't work then post a bunch of No Trespassing signs to keep those pesky solicitors away. A Thomas S Monson scarecrow is effective too!

East Salt Lake City is fine for me, because my children own homes only a block or two away. Houses are affordable. My children always walked to school, played at the neighbors' houses, played at the nice parks around here, joined soccer and baseball teams, etc. We feel very safe in our neighborhood. Within walking distance are stores and malls, which provided after-school jobs for my kids. They all went to the University of Utah. I went to both BYU and U of U, and U of U was far superior. The University offers sports, cultural events, a museum of natural history, botanical gardens, and more.

The Hoogle Zoo is small enough to be friendly, but large enough to have some interesting animals. There's an aviary at Liberty Park, and boats to rent, there. Broadway shows come to Salt Lake City. The symphony and ballet and operas here are first rate--almost as good as San Francisco's. We have The Jazz!

But our particular neighborhood is one of the rare, great ones. It is 60-75% NOT Mormon. This is an ethnically diverse neighborhood. We are also economically diverse, because the homes closest to the freeway are small, with carports and flat roofs, but with a yard and a large basement family room. Further up the mountain, are homes owned by prominent Utah families--prominent in the business world, known for their philanthropy--not the snobby Mormon General Authorities. Our neighbors are professors, teachers, doctors, lawyers, plumbers, business people, newscasters, engineers, young families and retired people--a good mix! We live among the scrub oak and pines, with the deer and squirrels, and no two houses look alike. Out my door, I can hike up into a National Forest--with hiking trails, biking, cross-country skiing. I hike there year round.

Park City
Federal Heights
The Avenues
Olympus Cove
St Mary's
Indian Hills area
Holladay
Murray
Sandy
Draper

All these suburbs of SLC have neighborhoods like mine.

I did not move here by choice--it's a long story--and did not want to stay here, except that I had a business/educational offer that I couldn't refuse, and I'm a single mother, so I needed a unique situation.

I was a lifetime Mormon, but was treated like dirt, because I was divorced and single. The Mormon cult is not a supporter of women's rights. They believe in Polygamy in the hereafter, so it is NOT all in the past, as they claim it is.

After my children and I resigned from the Mormon church, the demands, the Mormon abuse, and the harassment stopped. Now they shun us.

Everything is beautiful in Utah--except for the people!

If you are looking for close friends, parties, and a fun social life, look at jobs in other places. Maybe I'm spoiled, because I lived most of my life in the suburbs of San Francisco. I go back there to visit, and they come here to ski (my house is 20 minutes from the "best snow on earth." I have some friends from the U, and a few childhood friends who ended up here--But I have made no new friends in Utah.

The posters are right, who say the drivers are rude. "Me first" is their attitude. But--the traffic here is nothing compared to California.

Just weigh your priorities, and decide what you will give up and what you won't. Everyone is different.

My main complaint about the Mormon cult (yes it is a cult), is that they try to recruit your children! They go behind the parents' back, and target innocent kids, promising them instant friendship, instant popularity, and even teaching your children that their parents are WRONG. Mormonism breaks up families. It broke up mine.

Still--Mormons are less scary than the gangs we lived next to in California. Everything is a trade-off.

Let us know what you decide--and what your opinion is of Provo, and Utah in general.

It is beautiful!

If you have children or plan to have children;do not consider the move(imho).We went through hell and back with my oldest.He was bullied so badly and pushed into a corner that at nine he was suicidal.
If, this is a have to move,make sure you live outside of Utah County
like others have said.
Either way, best wishes on your journey.

I wanted to add,not trying to scare you away from Utah.It is a beautiful state with some amazing people.Just wish someone would have warned is,so we could have at least braced ourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 06:53PM by eldorado.

I didn't have time to read through all of the responses. But, I have an old boss that moved out here from the East Coast 15 years ago. He has never converted to Mormonism. I asked him what it was like to move here as a non-Mormon. He said it was a little weird at first. But he really enjoys it here and will probably never leave. He has been able to be very successful in his field and gets along fine with his customers. Even though over half of them are strong LDS. Maybe it is just the industry, but he has been accepted even though his standards are far different than the LDS standard.

He has lived in Sandy/Draper area for the entire 15 years. I would advise you to consider staying out of Utah County. It is definitely a little on the weird side. But on the bright side, you have no crowds at Costco on Sunday :)

Good luck with your job hunt, MoCurious. Do let us know your impressions of Utah, and how things turn out.

Thank you, everyone! I'll be sure to report back next week.

You guys rock. Seriously. I'm genuinely blown away by the time you all have spent helping out an anonymous stranger with his career and life choices. Especially someone who isn't even part of your community no less!

Even if you represent a small minority of Utah, it's still very comforting to know that should I make the move, I may potentially run into you at a local coffee house, tavern, or Sunday matinee.

All the best!

Last question before we fly out tomorrow.

We're both vegetarians. She's fairly strict (will always take the vegan option if available). I'm more "out of sight, out of mind" and occasionally indulge with seafood.

SLC restaurant/market/health food store recommendations are always welcome. Thank you!

One thing that all of Utah seems to have is plentiful shopping and eating convenience. Like I said before, businesses--including trendy stores and restaurants--open and close with great frequency. I think a simple Google of what you want will get you to the right location (so long as the business is still operatomg when you arrive). Utah is full of Costcos, World Markets, and Whole Foods and such, too. Also, they are gun and hunting freaks there, so Cabela's and other such outdoors stores are everywhere.

Another observation: Do you like preserving and maintaining the great outdoors, and protecting the environment? Utahns often don't. They use up resources like crazy, and their conservative mindset causes a good portion of the more foolish to support mining and oil exploration in national parks. They tend to be lousy stewards of anything historical or environmental.

Have always been able to find food in Utah, and just what I'm looking for.

SLC has tons of restaurants. When you get there pick up one of the tourist books/guides because it has a directory and list of the most popular eateries in the area.

You asked if there are believing mormons on this site. Answer is probably not.

That doesn't mean those who answered you are twisting facts due to their bitterness.

If you move to Utah, you're likely to want to leave it in a few years after you and your family are discounted or harassed enough.

Moving is easy. If the glow wears off and you or they are not pleased with Utah after awhile, you can leave.

I think that is likely to happen. Not everyone sees through the mormon culture in a short visit. It usually takes time before the ramifications sink in.

Most of us have given mormons the benefit of every doubt. You can do that too. If it works for you, that's good. If not, you can always leave.