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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 12:19PM

Turns out RFM isn't the only place this topic is debated. For some reason, historical Jesus threads are fascinating to me. I'm not sure I understand why "we just don't (and likely never will) know" is not a good enough answer.


http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-evidence-for-the-history-of-jesus/


"Two recent popular articles take opposite sides in this debate. The first is written by Dr Simon Gathercole in The Guardian, arguing that there is compelling evidence for Jesus. The second is written by Valerie Tarico in Raw Story and takes the position that the evidence for Jesus is weak."

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 12:27PM

"In the end we are left with, I think, two main conclusions. The first is that we simply do not know if Jesus was an actual person who existed. The evidence for a historical Jesus is thin, but there is no specific evidence refuting his existence."

Best part of that article.

And it's something that the "believers" simply won't allow themselves to admit. It's also something the ardent "mythicists" won't allow themselves to admit.

We don't know if there was an "historical Jesus" or not. That doesn't mean there WAS one, that doesn't mean there WASN'T one. It means there isn't enough evidence to conclude one way or the other.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 12:39PM

Exactly, Hie. But, why isn't this a good enough answer? And, why base your life (worldview?) on something so obviously vague?

I liked this part as well:

"So once a dominant savior mythology emerged, actual incidents from the lives of other prophets would have attached themselves to this myth. More significantly, the standard savior myth that already existed in the culture would have merged with any stories based in reality. In the end the story of Jesus is almost entirely myth, and any tendril of reality is both minor and impossible to prove."

I keep hearing Christianity exists therefore Christ. Seems kinda silly.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 12:49PM

eternal1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly, Hie. But, why isn't this a good enough
> answer? And, why base your life (worldview?) on
> something so obviously vague?

Got me.

One of my favorite writers, Martin Gardner (who for years wrote the "Mathmematical Games" column for Scientific American), and who was a god believer, wrote that he admitted "atheists have all the evidence." But that he still believed in a god -- "because it comforts me."

That's fine. At least he didn't go around insisting there was an historical Jesus because of his belief. :)

(edited because I mistakenly used present tense for Martin, when he has in fact already died)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 12:53PM by ificouldhietokolob.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 05:44PM

Per Kolob quoting and making a statement: "In the end we are left with, I think, two main conclusions. The first is that we simply do not know if Jesus was an actual person who existed. The evidence for a historical Jesus is thin, but there is no specific evidence refuting his existence." "It's also something the ardent "mythicists" won't allow themselves to admit."
_____________________________________________________
This 'spiritist' has never argued that the 'so called', 'intellectual/scholarly community' discussed on this site, isn't 'arguing' not only on this issue but many. Surprise! Surprise!

Maybe this was not directed at me, I misread your term, if not directed at me ----- never mind!

Thank goodness, based on my belief and research, the 'mystic' community has always been there to make sure humans have survived with 'intuition/psychic help'! I am talking psychics (including remote viewer psychics), mediums, past life regression people, and channels.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is 'little to no' disagreement in the 'mystic' community (those with any following at all and have not been proven to be frauds) regarding the Jesus myth.

The myth was based 'very loosely' on at least one main person and more than likely more. Jesus was a human similar to us. Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus was not resurrected. Jesus, very likely, has returned to Earth as a 'reincarnated' human again.

PS. Even though I don't want this thread at the top, I noticed the 'following' I am getting! Positive/Negative who really cares --- the myth Jesus didn't seem to care. Truth always hurts the 'know nothing/one liner' crowd. Now that I know so many 'appreciate' my comments I will make an even 'greater effort' to post the 'truth' whenever!!!! I can send autographs for a price!



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2017 11:37AM by spiritist.

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Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 06:08PM

Thank god no one cares about your Woo-woo nonsense you insist on insinuating into every thread that is even remotely related to religion.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 10:57AM


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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 01:53PM

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This 'spiritist' has never argued that the 'so
> called', 'intellectual/scholarly community'
> discussed on this site, isn't 'arguing' not only
> on this issue but many. Surprise! Surprise!
>
> Maybe this was not directed at me, I misread your
> term, if not directed at me ----- never mind!

It was a direct reply to the OP. Nothing whatsoever to do with you.

> Thank goodness, based on my belief and research,
> the 'mystic' community has always been there to
> make sure humans have survived with
> 'intuition/psychic help'! I am talking psychics
> (including remote viewer psychics), mediums, past
> life regression people, and channels.

How can you "research" something for which there is no evidence of any kind? Belief, yes. Research...no.

> Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is
> 'little to no' disagreement in the 'mystic'
> community (those with any following at all and
> have not been proven to be frauds) regarding the
> Jesus myth.

I haven't got a clue what the "mystic" community thinks about Jesus. Nor do I care, since nothing they do is based on facts or evidence.

> The myth was based 'very loosely' on at least one
> main person and more than likely more. Jesus was
> a human similar to us. Jesus did not die on the
> cross. Jesus was not resurrected. Jesus, very
> likely, has returned to Earth as a 'reincarnated'
> human again.
>
> PS. Even though I don't want this thread at the
> top, I noticed the 'following' I am getting!
> Positive/Negative who really cares --- the myth
> Jesus didn't seem to care. Truth always hurts the
> 'know nothing/one liner' crowd. Now that I know
> so many 'appreciate' my comments I will make an
> even 'greater effort' to post the 'truth'
> whenever!!!! I can send autographs for a price!

"Truth" is demonstrably true -- with facts and evidence.
Making nothing you post "true."
Your belief (without evidence) that it's "true" is not evidence that it's true, you know.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 02:14PM

Well, I appreciate your posts. The fact that we still exist after all this time suggests there's something very mystical going on. The math highly favors extinction, but here we are.

The best way to characterize Jesus is to remote view his life, which will be done with increasing accuracy going forward. However, it won't be easy with all of the biases. It's certainly possible that Jesus is 100% fabricated. That doesn't mean he's not mystical. The myths may have arisen for a reason.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 03:49PM

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I appreciate your posts. The fact that we
> still exist after all this time suggests there's
> something very mystical going on.

Only if you're fond of fallacious arguments from personal ignorance and incredulity.

> The math highly
> favors extinction, but here we are.

That's not the case at all. I don't suppose you HAVE this "math" you claim favors extinction?

> The best way to characterize Jesus is to remote
> view his life, which will be done with increasing
> accuracy going forward...

Oh, sure, because the "best way" to confirm one set of claims without any evidence is to come up with another set of claims without evidence.

Oh, wait...never mind.

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 03:55PM

"The best way to characterize Jesus is to remote view his life, which will be done with increasing accuracy going forward."
_________________________________________________________
Psychics have already remote viewed Jesus to some extent.

The Farsight institute a group of RVers, I believe, claims Jesus was not on any cross when someone else 'supposedly Jesus' was and discuss him being a human.

Other remote viewers, I believe, have also found Jesus to be a human and never resurrected.

Many psychics, mediums and channels have identified Jesus as a human (enlightened by remembering some 'spiritual' information') and that is why he was 'teaching' the people the insights he had. He was not trying to start a religion.

Both the RV articles I have read and psychic, medium, etc. reports are in line with my 'personal experiences' regarding Jesus, after life and resurrection.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 08:27PM


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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 01:23PM

waits for the "appeal to the mass authorities" fallacy to repeat itself again and again.

Sigh...

HH =)

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 01:47PM

Why do people need "authoritah" to tell them whether or not there's a historical Jesus? It's not real unless someone with authoritah says it's real?

Nobody asks if there was a historical Luke Skywalker. As if there's a difference.

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Posted by: topped ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 05:13PM


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Posted by: lurking in ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 05:41PM

It's fun to watch all the back and forth that goes on when it comes up. I don't have much to offer, but observing from the "peanut gallery" is fine with me, and I appreciate all the contributions from those who have extensively researched on the matter.

On my journey out of Mormonism (while I was a BYU, ironically) I discovered books on the historicity of Jesus and was more than a little surprised to find out just how little evidence there was for his existence. I'd always assumed the case was clear and it was only the most strident and agenda-driven (not to mention EVIL) atheists who argued against the historical case for Christ.

I lean a little to the "he did exist" side but don't really care that much about the ultimate answer, since I have little invested in it. The existence of Christianity seems more likely WITH an historical Jesus than without one. But those who argue that there's no rational way Christianity could have emerged without an actual Jesus completely lose me.

[Edited for content]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 06:12PM by lurking in.

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Posted by: rationalist01 ( )
Date: April 24, 2017 05:55PM

We can't know, but personally, I lean toward Christ mythicism. I've read Richard Carrier's books, and consider him to be one of the best qualified scholars on the historicity of Jesus. Applying Bayes'Theorem, he finds the odds slim that there ever was a real Jesus.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 11:01AM

Dumb asses keep claiming that there is evidence but they never show us any.

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Posted by: USN77 ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 02:28PM

Exists Jedi-ism does, therefore, real The Force is, and a true being Yoda was.

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Posted by: Tall Man, Short Hair ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 04:38PM

Of course there is the existence of the Christian movement.

There are few who try to deny the Christian faith started in Jerusalem in the first century by a group of devout Jews.

And if you think the evidence is scarce demonstrating that there was an actual Jesus at the start of it, try looking at any alternative that comes down the pike. There's absolutely no evidence for any other explanation. Some are truly wonderful flights of fantasy that have been suggested, none have any evidence whatsoever to support them.

As I've noted in the past, Christianity was subjected to some of the most vicious attacks and attempts to kill it that history has ever seen. But it took over 1700 years for the first suggestion to appear that Jesus never actually existed. There's likely a very good reason for that.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 05:29PM

Just to be clear here, are you saying that because the Christian religion exists, it is evidence of a historical Jesus with magical powers? And, any other explanation for the existence of Christianity is a "wonderful flight of fantasy"?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 06:27PM

. .. So the Gullible Will Believe Us

From a pull-no-punches website challenging the "historical" claims for the existence of Jesus:

"Josephus (c37-100 AD)

"Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

"A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

"Josephus's two major tomes are 'History of The Jewish War' and 'The Antiquities of the Jews.' In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

"At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

"In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

"1. Jesus's existence

"2. his 'more than human' status

"3. his miracle working

"4. his teaching

"5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles

"6. his Messiahship

"7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests

"8. his sentence by Pilate

"9. his death on the cross

"10. the devotion of his followers

"11. his resurrection on the 3rd day

"12. his post-death appearance

"13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy

"14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

"In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!
_____


"BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

"Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

"The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was 'not believing in Jesus as the Christ.'

"Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

"It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

"Josephus knows nothing of Christians

"It was the around the year 53 AD that Josephus decided to investigate the sects among the Jews. According to the gospel fable this was the period of explosive growth for the Christian faith: 'the churches ... throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria ... were edified... and ... were multiplied.' – Acts 9:31.

"This is also the time of the so-called 'Council of Jerusalem' when supposedly Paul regaled the brothers with tales of 'miracles and wonders' among the gentiles (Acts 15.12).

"And yet Josephus knows nothing of all this:

"'When I was sixteen years old, I decided to get experience with the various sects that are among us. These are three: as we have said many times, the first, that of the Pharisees, the second that of the Saduccees, the third, that of the Essenes. For I thought that in this way I would choose best, if I carefully examined them all. Therefore, submitting myself to strict training, I passed through the three groups.' – 'Life,' 2.

"Josephus elsewhere does record a 'fourth sect of Jewish philosophy' and reports that it was a 'mad distemper' agitating the entire country. But it has nothing to do with Christianity and its superstar:

"'But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord.

"'They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man Lord . . .

"'And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.' – 'Antiquities' 18.23.

"Nothing could better illustrate the bogus nature of the Testimonium than the remaining corpus of Josephus's work.

"Consider, also, the anomalies:

"1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?

"The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!


"2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

"In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

"It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.


"3. The question of context.

"'Antiquities' 18 is primarily concerned with 'all sorts of misfortunes' which befell the Jews during a period of thirty-two years (4-36 AD).

"Josephus begins with the unpopular taxation introduced by the Roman Governor Cyrenius in 6 AD. He presents a synopsis of the three established Jewish parties (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes), but his real quarry is the 'fourth sect of philosophy . . . which laid the foundation of our future miseries." That was the sect of Judas the Galilean, "which before we were unacquainted withal.'

"At the very point we might expect a mention of 'Christians' (if any such sect existed) we have instead castigation of tax rebels!

"'It was in Gessius Florus's time [64-66] that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and made them revolt from the Romans; and these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.'

"'Nor can fear of death make them call any man Lord.' Sound a tad familiar?

"Chapter 2 notes the cities built to honour the Romans; the frequent changes in high priest (up to Caiaphas) and Roman procurators (up to Pontius Pilate); and also the turmoil in Parthia.

"Chapter 3, containing the Testimonium as paragraph three, is essentially about Pilate's attempts to bring Jerusalem into the Roman system. With his first policy – placing Caesar's ensigns in Jerusalem – Pilate was forced to back down by unexpected Jewish protests in Caesarea. With his second policy – providing Jerusalem with a new aqueduct built with funds sequestered from the Temple, Pilate made ready for Jewish protests. Concealed weapons on his soldiers caused much bloodshed.

"At this point the paragraph about Jesus is introduced!

"Immediately after, Josephus continues:

"'And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews . . .'

"There is no way that Josephus, who remained an orthodox Jew all his life and defended Judaism vociferously against Greek critics, would have thought that the execution of a messianic claimant was "another terrible misfortune" for the Jews. This is the hand of a Christian writer who himself considered the death of Jesus to be a Jewish tragedy (fitting in with his own notions of a stiff-necked race, rejected by God because they themselves had rejected the Son of God).

"With paragraph 3 removed from the text the chapter, in fact, reads better. The 'aqueduct massacre' now justifies 'another terrible misfortune.'


"4. The final assertion, that the Christians were 'not extinct at this day,' confirms that the so-called Testimonium is a later interpolation. How much later we cannot say but there was no "tribe of Christians" during Josephus' lifetime. Christianity under that moniker did not establish itself until the 2nd century. Outside of this single bogus paragraph, in all the extensive histories of Josephus there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere.


"5. The hyperbolic language is uncharacteristic of the historian:

"' . . . as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.'

"This is the stuff of Christian propaganda.
_____


"REALITY CHECK

"In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

"Bishop Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD. This was after the Christians had become the custodians of religious correctness.

"Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

"Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

"Sanctioned by the imperial propagandist every Christian commentator for the next thirteen centuries accepted unquestioningly the entire Testimonium Flavianum, along with its declaration that Jesus 'was the Messiah.'

"And even in the twenty first century scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the 'golden paragraph' in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus 'on message.'"

(For the entire article, see: "Non-Christian Testimony? – From the Authentic Pen of Lying Christian Scribes!!," at: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html)

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Posted by: boilerluv ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 06:53PM

As an atheist, I tend to lean a little teeny bit to the side that yes, there was indeed an historical person called Jesus. Where I differ from most is: I think if he existed, he was a rabbi with some ideas that were far ahead of his time, and he developed a fantastic "cult following," (so to speak, LOL!) starting with the first 12, and then the ones that they were able to con--or, "convince." I suspect if he were real, he was a married rabbi, had kids, and lived a normal rabbi-type life, except for the roaming around, spreading his "new age" type ideas. I do NOT believe he was crucified, or rose from the dead, or performed miracles, raised anybody else from the dead (i.e. his buddy Lazarus. Did Laz live forever after being raised (if so, where is he today?), or did he eventually die like everybody else, and if so, why bother to raise him from the dead to begin with? One ponders...), walked on water, healed cripples or blind people, turned water into wine, etc. And I don't believe he was a "savior" who "died so that we might live." But what do I know? I'm just a slob like everybody else, trying to make my way through an increasingly difficult world--without believing in the Big Guy In The Sky, and also trying to accept being so damned OLD. When I was a kid, I never imagined myself being 75 years old. After all, that's ancient, and people that old have nothing to offer the world any more, if they ever did. All they can do is sit around in a rocking chair (which I never bothered to buy or own), and wait to die. Well, hell. I'm still working (in a mental hospital, no less!), and I know I'll die--just not sure when. I asked my doctor if he had any gentlemen patients my age (more or less, I'm not that picky) who were interested in sex with a woman of my age who wears it pretty well, and he laughed and said, yes, he did, but his medical ethics wouldn't let him match us up. Damn. I would have to have an ethical doctor. ;)

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:24PM

As lurking in said, he has little invested in whether or not Jesus existed so doesn't really care, one way or the other. I feel precisely the same way.

I don't think it affects either believer, or non, as they are not likely to change their beliefs one way or another. And hypothetically, how could his existence be proven one way or the other?


The argument as to whether or not he is mythical or historical is, to me, arbitrary. The discussion then always seems to progress to whether or not his divinity was real or not. Again, there is no evidence to prove either belief. Because I think that, no matter on which side of the divide you find yourself, little would change your position as we are lacking hard evidence. So, I would ask, What difference does it actually make?

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 25, 2017 09:40PM


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Posted by: drilldoc ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 04:51PM


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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 08:52PM

What we do know is that there was /is no divine Jesus who was able to raise himself from the dead.

Speculation about a historical Jesus is some sort of sick mental /intellectual masturbation ( jack off) that is really pointless and goes down a long road to nowhere because, just as the new testament says IF Jesus did not raise himself from the dead then he is not the divine messiah, which is Jesus' real significance, with out that grand magic trick of the resurrection then jesus message even with all of its clever biting anti establishment quips has no real merit or value.

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Posted by: bekah ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 09:42PM

"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically"...wikipedia On jesus

More art music and literature writing has been done about him than any other person in history. How much evidence would we have of your existence 2,000 years later? 2,000 years after his death we he has 2 billion believers plus in his existence and more than than half the planet if you count muslims. Any other figure never had that following that lasted through time at such scale. We even named time after him bc and ad year of our lord. There is much more evidence for Jesus than any other figure in histroy period.

Here is what Bono singer from U2 said about it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQClgNRoPc

There was an athiest attorney named Lee Strobel that devoted his life to disprove jesus and after years of research using the law and evidence he concluded jesus existed and was everything he claimed. He converted to Christianity. He wrote a book called "The Case for Christ". It was just out in the theaters too.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_Christ

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 10:03PM

bekah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree
> that Jesus existed historically"...wikipedia On
> jesus

well that will be news to these scholars .....and scores of Jewish Rabbis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS0WSEuousE

Sure Sure this guy roves the land doing incredible miracles and the only written documented accounts are found in the ( roman created) new testament and by Josephus who is a completely coopted operative of the Flavians !!


I challenge you to make find/ create and then make a more inaccurate and stupider statement than that ! ......You might have to fall back on the old reliable: "the earth is flat"


> More art music and literature writing has been
> done about him than any other person in history.
> How much evidence would we have of your existence
> 2,000 years later? 2,000 years after his death we
> he has 2 billion believers plus in his existence
> and more than than half the planet if you count
> muslims. Any other figure never had that following
> that lasted through time at such scale. We even
> named time after him bc and ad year of our lord.
> There is much more evidence for Jesus than any
> other figure in histroy period.

and that same type of "evidence" could be used to "prove" that neptune or zeus is real


>
> Here is what Bono singer from U2 said about it.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQClgNRoPc
>


Oh OH BONO is convinced well there is iron clad proof!!!


and then there is Neil Diamond and Barbara Streisand who sing christmas songs !!!

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Posted by: bekah ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 10:16PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically"


Here's scores of rabbis that believe in Jesus and even converted to Christianity. There are scores as you put it of messianic jews that are christian and believers in the divinity of Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rabis+that+believe+in+jesus

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Posted by: bekah ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 10:21PM

While were on the topic. Here are scores of Jews that converted to believing in Jesus.

http://imetmessiah.com

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 11:29PM


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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 10:56PM

bekah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
>
> "Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree
> that Jesus existed historically"

oh, so you could not top your original statement in terms of inaccuracy and stupidity as you were challenged to do, so you just stuck with it! Nice way to concede !!!!

Of Course, Jesus existed, because he is mentioned in the new testament so he HAS to be real !!!!! ...and Santa claus is even more real as there are even more unique mentions of Santa CLaus and his acts through out history than there are of Jesus !!!

>
> Here's scores of rabbis that believe in Jesus and
> even converted to Christianity. There are scores
> as you put it of messianic jews that are christian
> and believers in the divinity of Christ.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rabis
> +that+believe+in+jesus

and EVEN MORE, FAR MORE Jewish Rabbis, as in Jewish Rabbis that are actually Jewish because they actually adhere to Judaism, you know Rabbis that have NOT Judaism, find the new testament to be a bad joke.

Go ahead and also throw in MORmON believers to boost your credibility by tally methodology because they'd be just as qualified as Jewish Rabbis that dumped Judaism for Christianity, and you lumping of Historical but not divine believing moslems together with believing former Jewish Rabbis. .....YAH that makes sense!!!

while we are at it, and lets just keep going with your numbers might makes right since you seem to have a preference for that mode, AND your anybody (including former jewish rabbis and moslems) is qualified to weigh in on the matter mode, please note that the vast majority of inhabitants of the earth, past and present do NOT believe that Jesus is a real person or a divine person.

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Posted by: bekah ( )
Date: April 26, 2017 11:34PM

"Is your statement really true,the vast majority of inhabitants of the earth, (present) do NOT believe that Jesus is a real person or a divine person". That simply does not hold water to fact.

Let's look at present numbers since you mentioned present. Let's look at facts. More people on the planet are believers and adherents to Jesus than any other philosophy, religion, paradigm etc...

2.2 billion
Christianity was by far the world's largest religion, with an estimated 2.2 billion adherents, nearly a third (31 percent) of all 6.9 billion people on Earth," the Pew report says.

If you include Muslims who highly believe in Jesus you can tack on another 1.6 million for a total of 3.8 million. Entire section of the Quran is dedicated to Jesus (mentioned 187 times). Making more than half the present world self-associating with a belief in Jesus.

These numbers have grown since 2010 as well when Pew surveyed.

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 27, 2017 11:24AM

So, are you trying to say that if the vast majority of people on this earth were to believe Mormonism is true then it must be true based simply on the number of believers?

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Posted by: eternal1 ( )
Date: April 27, 2017 11:55AM

Here's a followup article to the OP. A good read. They're still debating it.


http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/jesus-mythicism-revisited/

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