I believe that a huge benefit to living here in Utah is that areas with large populations of Mormons tend to have good values, especially in Utah Valley, Draper, and other LDS suburbs.

Mormon families are well-structured with a clear support system in the home. The father has a good, stable job and the mom is there for her kids and raises them with good values. LDS children are taught to be good citizens, be respectful of police, work hard for what they have, obey their leaders, and be polite to others. Religion in the home is paramount.

As a result, neighborhoods with high LDS populations are very ideal. I live in one now and it's good to see values in modern society.

Compare this to somewhere like Compton, Detroit, or LA where kids grow up without their fathers and there moms have multiple partners and kids from different relationships. They are raised to think "gangsta" culture, drugs, violence, and foul language/premarital sex is okay. They don't value education or respect of law enforcement. As a result, those neighborhoods are violent, impoverished, and devoid of humanity.

While I may not agree on everything Mormons do, you can't deny the good they do for our communities.

But the logical flaw in your argument is that you associate this 'goodness' with Mormonism.

I live in a part of Houston that matches what you just described, but obviously the Mormons are the minority here.

Right on, Darren.

I've lived in some very scary big cities. And those cities also had some lovely, safe neighborhoods with nary a Mormon to be seen.

I've also been around a lot of the very same kinds of families that RianL describes. And not a Mormon anywhere. What a load of nonsense, to imagine that being Mormon has anything to do with it.

... sterilized of any sign of raw humanity.

Utah has spectacular scenery--I have liked and hiked it for many years.

But in other ways, Utah is perversely unnatural.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 09:41PM by steve benson.

Agree Darren. That has to do with good parenting. Not just Mormons can be good parents. Good grief. I am a nevermo and if you think all Mormons make lives in a community that are kind and interect with all around them you are so mistaken. I lived in Layton Utah and although it was yrs. ago NO ONE in the "community" talked to us. We were not Mormon so we were to be ignored. And we were. Also my daughters were treated badly by the students in their schools. SAD we even had to live there but we did. Then when we moved to another state I found other Mormon kids did not include my daughter in things just because she was not one of them. Please do not say they make up good communities. The kids and adults shun those different from them in most cases.

My husband's LDS ex wife has five kids fathered by three husbands. She is as crooked as they come.

...That you, poopstone?

Damn, you beat me to it! I was actually thinking, "Is this poopstone posting?"

Yeah, that inversion that causes health problems sure is a prime example of the cleanliness in Utah.

And safe for whom?

http://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/topics/rape-sexual-assault/

"Rape is the only violent crime in Utah that occurs at a higher rate than the rest of the nation. "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 08:55PM by Itzpapalotl.

While those statistics are a concern, they mostly happen among impoverished areas like West Valley, South Salt Lake, and Kearns where those values are not present in the home.

However, Utah cities are still much safer than other places. I can go outside without gangsters doing drive-by shootings, drop outs wandering the streets and gang fights every time I step outside to mow my lawn or something. I don't have to worry about a bunch of youths and thugs roaming my neighborhood because I live in a respectable area, not the "hood."

I lived in Utah, specifically Provo, off and on for years and that just isn't an accurate picture of that area.

When you wait at a UTA bus stop in Provo, you won't find a cigarette butt anywhere on the grass or sidewalk, much less the litter you always see in minority-dominated inner cities. That's a fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 09:35PM by Agnes Broomhead.

And how about the rest of the city? I beg to differ, I saw trash and butts all over the town with the exception of BYU and the neighborhoods in the hills.

In Mormonville, that kind of inane statement is considered a breathless breakthrough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 12:46PM by steve benson.

Hey RianL/Idontreallycarewhoyouare- I'll have to call bullshit on your argument. All of those areas you mentioned are areas that have much higher proportions of Mormon people compared to the United States, even if the proportions are lower than other parts of Utah. By your logic, because there are more Mormons who supposedly are family-oriented, respectful of authority, use clean language, and have good values, there should not be any crime there, right?

You are grossly misinformed. The state of Utah has many gangs and gang problems and gang shootings. Again, I don't know how bad they are compared to the rest of the country or even any other state, but their are still gang problems. There is also rampant drug use and trafficking, and Utah has a huge opioid problem, like many other states in this country. CNN has done documentaries about it. Don't even get me started about the problem with fundamentalist Mormon sects and the associated problems that started in Utah and have started to infest neighboring states. You would think you'd know this, being a resident of the state and all, but I wonder if it's really that you're just a troll, aren't you?

Also, I don't think this is poopstone, poopstone has never, in my experience, responded to anyone criticizing his posts. In fact, I've never even seen him respond to someone who says anything about something he posts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 10:48PM by midwestanon.

RianL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While those statistics are a concern, they mostly
> happen among impoverished areas like West Valley,
> South Salt Lake, and Kearns where those values are
> not present in the home.

You just contradicted your own argument.
First you ascribe these "values" to the effects of mormonism...then you admit the "values" don't exist in "impoverished" areas -- where there are just as many mormons as in other areas.

So thanks for pointing out that your own argument is invalid, and that the correlation with income (or lack thereof) is far more likely than any correlation with mormonism.

Apostle Mark E. Peterson wrote "Righteous people everywhere also should look to their own neighborhoods to determine to what extent the ‘gay’ people have infiltrated their areas." LDS neighborhoods don't want me there, and I don't want to be there either.

Also your argument is completely ignorant of the relationship between socioeconomic status and crime.

news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19770709&id=PMdSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LX4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3350,2268014&hl=en

Editorial titled "Unnatural, without excuse" by Mark E. Peterson written in the Church News editorial page of The Deseret News. July 9, 1977, page 16. Peterson wrote five other similar editorials from 1977-1979, all published in the same newspaper.

I'm not comfortable with that assessment.

Case in point: I lived in Ogden during the 1970's, when it was in the top TEN of the highest crime cities in the nation.

Do you wanna know why?

It's because of the polarization between those who are over-conformists, causing a counterbalancing effect of those in the community who are "under-conformists."

Satanic cults have flourished throughout Utah since the 1960's. Motorcycle gangs likewise. Drug peddling, organized criminal activity, etc. It's all there, and active ... pornography is another big industry in Utah. Pyramid schemes and MLM's are promoted by Mormons shysters who swindle fellow churchgoers. Utah is notorious for these as well.

What you see as "safer & cleaner" is the tip of the iceberg IMO. There's a seedier side to Utah that goes maybe undetected by Mormon eyes and ears, because people tend to associate with only that which they identify with.

But it's all there, believe me.

Ogden's crime rate isn't as high as it was in the 70's. Today it's Salt Lake City with the higher crime rate. Overall, it may be lower than it was back then. But the over conformity and under conformity still create the polarization between law abiding citizens, and those who flaunt the rule of law.

There's nowhere in America you'll find that element when comparing states, as much as Utah. It's because of Mormonism that the polarization exists.

I think if you find just about any area of the US with a similiar racial and education demographics regardless of what religion the peolpe are who live and you you find neighborhoods equal or better than Utah.

"Cleaner" I will grant you (but, of course, the water is clean, so far as I know...and there are no "Mormon" neighborhoods of homes situated on chemical and metal (think mercury) dump sites, as happens in Compton, Detroit, etc.)...

But safer?

Utah is fourth or fifth in the nation for deaths due to drug overdoses (with rising rates of prescription drug/"legal" drug overdoses)...

Utah has one of the highest suicide rates in the nation...

and Utah is Number One in affinity fraud crimes.

Even if you make a reasonably good case for "cleaner," "large LDS populations" obviously do not equal "safer."

(As a former resident of South L.A., and someone who deeply cares for, and feels still attached to, my former neighborhood, I also don't like the implied message that the problems you are referring to are "black" problems. Go to the poorer/poorest sections of the United States (starting with Appalachia), those with residents who are both predominately poor AND are white, and you will find the same issues, most often with additional issues thrown in to the mix.)

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Cleaner" I will grant you (but, of course, the
> water is clean, so far as I know...and there are
> no "Mormon" neighborhoods of homes situated on
> chemical and metal (think mercury) dump sites, as
> happens in Compton, Detroit, etc.)...

Not so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites_in_Utah

Any place with heavy mining and smelting of metals is going to have those contamination issues around, and Utah had plenty of that sort of activity.

I have lived in many places, including several different locations in Utah and I am in complete disagreement that your observations have anything at all to do with Mormonism or Mormons.

Sounds like a TBM trying to remind us how great Mormons are.

I've lived in Utah for half my life and I disagree with your assertions. Maybe there's less crime, but there's also higher rates of mental illness, suicide and rape. And how is our awful air quality "clean"?

Your post is also very biased. You're forgetting that Mormons tend to be middle- or upper-class so of course their neighborhoods aren't going to be impoverished. Hell, they cry bloody murder at the very idea of a homeless shelter being built in their midst! And there are plenty of people who have no problem with "foul language" or premarital sex, in and of itself.

Personally I absolutely hate this state because of Mormon culture and can't wait to get out.

Is this just a rehash of the bogus "mormonism is good for raising children" argument ?

I've lived in a number of really lovely, stable, peaceful, prosperous communities. None of them had more than a handful of Mormons compared to the rest of the population.

And Mussolini had the trains running on time.

Lots of cults create idyllic environments. It doesn't make them any more appealing to me.

"Compare this to somewhere like Compton, Detroit, or LA where kids grow up without their fathers"

Um, Compton is part of L.A. County. Obviously, geography isn't your strong suit.

So you think that kids grow up without their fathers in L.A. *All* of L.A. according to your post. Obviously, logic isn't your strong suit either.

Guess what, Rian? Beverly Hills is also part of L.A. County. Want to bet that the streets are clean and the crime rate is low?

I live in L.A. I too can "go outside without gangsters doing drive-by shootings, drop outs wandering the streets and gang fights every time I step outside to mow my lawn or something. I don't have to worry about a bunch of youths and thugs roaming my neighborhood" News flash, Rian: You can safely go outside in other places besides Utah!

You emphasize the worst of other places and airily dismiss the "impoverished areas" in Utah. Obviously, intellectual honesty isn't your strong suit either.

Yeah, that's why Utah has one of the highest suicide rates in the nation. Just because a place is safe and clean does not mean it is desirable or mentally healthy.


https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/figures/m6345qsf.gif&imgrefurl=https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm&h=620&w=560&tbnid=VsowoHgbXlVBJM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=144&usg=__xEkDYFkzzItMLOj4-9PKLTR1m4Y=&vet=10ahUKEwiig_21irzTAhWE24MKHWK_CG0Q9QEIJzAA..i&docid=-58ZEXa6PoarsM&client=ubuntu&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiig_21irzTAhWE24MKHWK_CG0Q9QEIJzAA

Hmmm...what I recall from living in some of the nicest and cleanest suburbs along the Wasatch Front is a seemingly disproportionate number of registered sex offenders in the midst of those posh and tidy homes.

Appearances can be very deceiving, which is the ultimate understatement of all things Mormon.

Safer from affinity crime? No.
Safer from bombardment of MLM exploitation? No.
Safer from emotional abuse, sexual abuse? Probably no safer than any other suburbia in America.

Well, Stepford is nice this time of year too...

TempeX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, Stepford is nice this time of year too...

:) :) :)

I've lived in Utah all my life. I lived in Colorado for a year with my boyfriend. I absolutely loved Colorado and it was just as safe as the neighborhoods I've lived in in Utah in Brigham City and in Cache Valley. I miss Colorado. I was just thinking that yesterday. There was only one mormon stake center in the city I lived in in Colorado. Not much mormon influence there.

The best places I've ever lived were the least Mormon. New York City and Frankfurt, Germany. Nary a Mormon anywhere you look.

No Offense...actually...no, I want to be offensive on this.

We aren't supposed to say swear words on these boards, so I will phrase it more politely.

The OP of this topic is blowing smoke...

They basically talk about MIDDLE to UPPER CLASS homes in Utah and try to portray that as ALL of Utah.

Then, when faced with a little bit of reality, try to portray anyone living in West Valley, South Salt Lake and Kearns as being evil!!!!????

I find that INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE!!!!!

First...

1. If you go to ANYWHERE IN THE US where you HAVE MIDDLE AND UPPER CLASS HOMES you will find the SAME if NOT BETTER and SAFER living conditions and situations than UTAH.

In FACT, if you go to California (oh, that sinful place according to some Mormons) where you have that upper class grouping, like, let's say, the Upper, upper class areas of San Francisco (the center of Mormon horror, of course), not only will you find it cleaner, you'll find higher paying jobs, more unbiased people, and a larger focus on the Arts and culture.

In fact, Salt Lake and Utah look almost dirty and crime ridden compared to comparative areas of the same comparison of economic social classes in relation to the cost of living/money made (also a lot higher wage for the same social/economic class in San Fran, admittedly).

Or, go to Atlanta Georgia in the Middle and Upper class areas. You'll have clean living and even BETTER schools.

It has NOTHING to do with being Mormon, and EVERYTHING to do with how much you make and the opportunities in life.

2. Utah has a LOT of gangs and crime in many areas. Ironically, it even has gangs in the upper middle class areas in some locations of Utah.

3. To accuse the poor that they are NOT righteous is absolutely condescending. I'd bet more of the poor are harder working and more focused on doing good than many of the rich who could care less about them (and lest we forget the debacle recently where those same upper middle and upper class didn't even want a homeless shelter...because...apparently if they ignore the problem it goes away...right (Wrong).

4. The original post IGNORES that a MAJORITY of Mormons are NOT those living in those NICE, CLEAN, upper middle and middle class neighborhoods. A majority that I've seen are living in lesser status, have working mothers and fathers (so, that entire MYTH of the stay at home mother, sure, it might be true for those upper middle class and middle class, but overall...that's a myth for a majority of the Mormons I've met and seen, and that also includes many in those "NICE" neighborhoods in which the mothers also work right with the fathers. The problem is that the LDS church IGNORES the poorer individuals, excludes them and minorities from most leadership (because, obviously if you are white and upper middle class you must be more righteous, just like the Original poster seems to indicate...which is the WRONG type of attitude and WRONG idea as it goes against FACTS). Thus, it paints one sort of picture, but overall is leaving a LOT of it's members feeling EXCLUDED (which may be why activity rates are so low and their numbers aren't that great...people tend to not go to their church as much when they feel that church excludes them).

5. I am thinking (and I might be wrong, but I think) that the original post was written by some Mormon kid who's never been out of the Morridor in their entire life and has NO idea what the rest of the world is like.

Just sayin...

Ever been to wealthy suburbs in New Jersey or Connecticut? You won't find a Mormon anywhere, I guarantee it. But, you will find stable families, one or two very well employed parents, smart and well educated children aiming for top colleges.

Public schools are well-supported. Class sizes are small and there are plenty of added niceties -- art, music, science labs, computer labs, etc. Compare that to the Utah school system -- which is basically a joke -- huge classes, worn out facilities, tons of public money being hijacked for charter schools and a lower per pupil expenditure than any other state in the nation -- including Mississippi.

In the NJ/Conn suburbs, you'll find gorgeous homes, manicured lawns, community activism, excellent public schools and a lifestyle most Mormons cannot even imagine.

And, it's not just the suburbs. New York City is safer these days than Utah.

The OP suffers from the delusion that people can only be happy, prosperous and productive if they are Mormon. It's weird, but when you're raised that way, you actually believe it. I was shocked when I moved east some 30 years ago and found out there are millions of people living happy, fulfilling, productive lives and raising well-adjusted children who have barely even heard of the Mormon church and if they have, think it's some kind of weird cult.

I've also lived in Europe -- and the same is true there. Happy families, devoted parents, excellent schools, beautiful homes, and an enviable lifestyle.

The OP needs to get out of Utah and see the world.

One of the safest, cleanest places is Minneapolis. You could fit all the LDS people in Minneapolis into one family van.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 09:56AM by cludgie.

I live in a highly LDS populated part of New Mexico. Let me tell you, it is most definitely NOT cleaner or safer and in the top 100 most dangerous towns/cities to live in the USA. The CO town in which I grew up, which had 3 or 4 LDS families, is safer and cleaner than when I lived in Provo, even despite some of the drug (not the marijuana) issues that hit the town in the last two decades.

"...or LA where kids grow up without their fathers and there moms have multiple partners and kids from different relationships."

It sticks in my craw how the women in this situation are pointed out. What about the multiple men who have impregnated this woman and ::poof::?

a nonny mouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "...or LA where kids grow up without their fathers
> and there moms have multiple partners and kids
> from different relationships."
>
> It sticks in my craw how the women in this
> situation are pointed out. What about the multiple
> men who have impregnated this woman and ::poof::?

Absolutely right on, a nonny mouse!!

:)

We'll just have to give you a pass and consider that since you live in UT and are exmo (?) you still suffer the effects of residual brainwashing.

I'd suggest you get out in the world a bit. Mormons don't have the corner on "good," by any means—although they work hard trying to convince everyone that they do. In fact what they do "have" is so odorous as to pollute the "good" and make it completely repulsive to many of us.

As many people here know, I think racism occasionally creeps into discussions on RfM. Sometimes it is pretty overt, sometimes it takes the form of sweeping generalizations, and sometimes it is expressed in code.

I am for personal reasons sensitive to this, but it is not just my opinion. We had a frequent poster here for many years who finally left in anger and frustration over the issue. I suspect there are others who have made that choice as well, and that some newcomers are repelled by what they perceive as bias.

With that as background, what exactly does "Compton, Detroit, or LA" mean? This sort of code appears sometimes, as do terms like "inner cities." There are lots of places in the United States, including in the heartland, where rates of drug abuse, divorce, and crime have reached critical proportions. But in discussions on this board the comparison is often made between places with great populations on the one hand and "inner cities" or "Detroit" on the other. I, for one, would appreciate it if people were more precise about what they are discussing rather than using shorthand that is amenable to more than one interpretation.

We've also had posters who have left from being hammered for being racist or homophobic. Not that I have a problem with that. One of the homophobe flameouts was so spectacular that it still gets an occasional oblique reference. However, there is almost no overt homophobia expressed here anymore. People know they'll get hammered if they do that.

There is still too much equating of white with delightsome, and that will take a long time to die down. The BoM is racist from cover to cover, and that's slathered on top of the baseline racism of American culture (and most other cultures, to be fair). It's going to be a long row to hoe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 03:42PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Well put. I fear you are correct.

A few quick points.

First, divorce rates for Mormons, even temple-married Mormons, is almost identical to the national average. The idea that Mormon families are stronger than elsewhere is false.

Second, the high rate of anti-depressant usage indicates that Mormon communities are in fact unsafe--unless mental health doesn't enter into your consideration.

Third, Mormonism is highly dangerous to gay children and adolescents. You seem to ignore that fact in applauding nice communities with well-trimmed lawns.

Wrong place. Sorry.

Thankfully!

In my travels in the former Soviet Union, and a couple of former satellite nations, one thing became clear: this depressing, dysfunctional mess was the product of decades of Atheistic Communism. What a people believes does have a very real impact on what a society looks like.

Yeah! Look at all those atheistic socialists in Stockholm. Deplorable.

Oh?

Never mind.

Bat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my travels in the former Soviet Union, and a
> couple of former satellite nations, one thing
> became clear: this depressing, dysfunctional mess
> was the product of decades of Atheistic Communism.
> What a people believes does have a very real
> impact on what a society looks like.

Right, it had nothing to do with a dictatorial government, social policies based on "fake" facts not science, money being gathered by the non-elected political leaders instead of invested in communities, etc. It was all atheism.

Oh, wait, no it wasn't. Never mind then.

why do I always have a sense of being watched when I travel into a Mormon area? It feels like something enveloping me and sucking out my life force.

Resistance is Futile, you WILL be assimilated.....

Yes they'll judge you. Yes they'll think your evil and inferior.

The Mormon town of Raymond, 9 miles to the south of me is a run down shithole. There are some newer homes, granted but the state of many properties shows zero pride of ownership.

Not too many have pride in their yards. What's really nice is when people ride their horses and leave all that horse shit on the streets and sidewalks for ALL to enjoy. It's really 'special' when it cools off at night to where you can finally turn on a window fan to suck in the cool air, but right outside your window is a 20 foot trail of fresh horse shit and the stench is also sucked into your bedroom. It's SO lovely!

God only knows how many more fuckin' decades people have to 'take it up the ass' by the damn 'horse'. And somewhere there must be a high altar with the horse shit from Ray Knight's favorite horse that is worshipped and adored, right up there with the god-almighty Comets.

Have you ever driven around the older parts of Provo and Orem? Many junky yards with old tricycles and bikes strewn everywhere, yards not kept up, just like any parts of any city that are not where the more upscale people live.

Mormons deal with many disappointing situations when they learn they're Not Perfect....

Is there a name for that syndrome?