Sunshine at last graces us after an exceptionally long, snowy, cold and tough winter (I vow never to go without snow tires again!)

And it's my first weekend off in many a month.

So what do I do? Watch Spencer Tracy in Judgment at Nuremberg. Good film. But I just sat down for a sec, not intending to watch TV at all.

The whole thing is hellishly sad, so beyond, that it's hard to describe in any words I know.

At the end of the movie the defendant German judge, found guilty of war crimes and convicted by Tracy, said to him, "The millions who died. You must believe I never knew it would come to that".

Tracy's character replied, "That happened the moment you convicted a man you knew to be innocent" (apparently, it had been a man who spoke out against the Third Reich; something not allowed in 1930s Germany, and this judge had sentenced him to death for that).

Great line by Tracy. A truth to be mulled over and hopefully applied.

It seems so unbelievable in the 21st century that the Holocaust could have ever happened. That such a collective madness could arise and be sustained.

Obviously, it is incomparable. Too horrific and vast to be an example or for any other circumstance to be seen as equal.

A documentary I saw yesterday traced the journey of an Auschwitz survivor from Canada back to the camp with his grandson, looking for the place where he lost many of his immediate family. He had ended up marrying a girl he met as a teenager in the camp. She had noticed him in the sick bay and knew he would be killed if he couldn't work so somehow she was able to smuggle a bit of food into him (a potato) and kept him going. Incredible that they both survived and what a miracle that the grandson even came into being, only due to the extreme unlikelihood that both his grandparents survived and then met up again, by happenstance, post-war. The survivor's trip back to Germany and through the camp was beyond poignant. He pointed out the still present railroad track and a cattle car such as the one he and his family arrived on, the huts that had been so overcrowded, the infamous shower blocks, and described many of the people there, including kids, and named all his friends from the hut in which he had been imprisoned.

In one town he revisited he even ran into an elderly German woman whose family had snuck food to some of the Jewish prisoners who were working nearby - a crime with a death sentence if they had been caught. She had been just a young child at the time but they somehow recognized each other and, of course, remembered.

I marvel at the courage shown, many of whom lost their lives for it, and worry that I would not have been so brave.

There are times in my life that looking back I wish I had reacted differently, spoken out, created change, inspired justice. Rather, I mostly feel voiceless, powerless. Worse, that too often I took no action. Even when the affront is on an obviously miniscule scale in comparison, still, instances arise that also demand justice or change.

I tend to see the big picture - if millions are starving, I can't help fix that, so all too often I do nothing, out of frustration or impotence. But maybe I could help one, or three, or five. And that's at least taking action. I tend to default to the first position though but am trying to change.

Recently, I was with "new Canadian" neighbours who hail from a wartorn region, a desperate situation in the news every day. I had heard reports that people there feel "the world doesn't care". I said to one of my neighbours that we didn't need pictures of dead children and suffering people in order to care. We cared then, we care now, I said. "But what can we do? What can we DO?"

"Help", he said. "Just help."

And so I learn that indeed every little bit does help.

At least I don't have to worry, in my country and our current circumstances, that I could be harshly dealt with for caring/helping. So that should be good impetus to carry on.

I will remember the spirit of Spencer Tracy's words in Judgment at Nuremberg: Evil consequences can occur the moment you fail to take action when you see injustice, or worse, if you actively cause grievous harm.

I have spoken up numerous times in various situations but almost always feel powerless to effect momentous change. Kinda discouraging.

While it's incumbent upon us, I believe, to remember history and honour its victims, I do think that next time I have a rare work-free/blank calendar on a sunny Sunday afternoon I will find a fun thing to pursue, just for a welcome change.

I was going to relate this somehow to religion (it being Sunday, after all, and this being the exmo board) but maybe the parallels are obvious and in any case I've run out of metaphors, or whatever.

(Not that I'm going to use WWII as a metaphor. Absolutely not).

So I'll just shut up now. And maybe go to the park...

Nightingale wrote:
>It seems so unbelievable in the 21st century that the Holocaust could have ever happened. That such a collective madness could arise and be sustained.
Obviously, it is incomparable. Too horrific and vast to be an example or for any other circumstance to be seen as equal.

I understand why people get so outraged at the inhumanity of Hitler and his "Final solution." We SHOULD be outraged.

However, I would like to point out that there is a danger in viewing those evils as somehow "incomparable." The danger is that by so thinking, we begin to believe that it could never happen again, that somehow that particular set of evils was unique.

Please remember that those evils were perpetrated by human beings who were not all that different from us. They worked hard, they had their own ideals (however mistaken or absurd). They usually sincerely believed that they were working to "improve" their world.

I do not for a moment want to sound like I am condoning the evil results or the mistakes that led to such a horrible ending. I only want to suggest that we admit to ourselves that under similar circumstances we might end up doing just as much evil.

There is danger in saying that the Nazis were so different from us.

We are ALL capable of stupid cruelty, both individually and as a nation.

Hi Richard

I really appreciate your comments.

By "incomparable" I was thinking more of the scale of it, and one of the major reasons - anti-Semitism - that continues to shock me because it's hard to imagine so many people being so inclined.

But yes, I take your point that it's unrealistic to think it couldn't happen again. Perhaps that is part of what is so scary about it.

I was going to mention Europe etc at the present time but didn't want to get into politics, even though it's somewhat allowed here now.

The part of the film that also really got to me was the character playing the German judge, who was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, saying that he really believed he was working for the good of his country. I can see how in that case a person could get pulled in and then get more and more extreme. If it's gradual it's not so noticeable from the first.

That somewhat explains to me how the German leaders and military people did what they did that went way over the line (understatement, obviously). The fact that many went along because they didn't realize or had no power or were afraid for their own safety by that point, or for whatever reasons, is also frightening.

And what you said, Richard, about them not being that different from us, is the scariest thought. And I don't disagree with you. Eerie that I saw this movie on the day of the election in France and that the issues and candidates and the times in which we are living can evoke the fervour, and extreme approaches, seen in other times that didn't turn out so well.

Psychologist Stanley Milgram wondered the same thing about Adolf Eichmann. The result was the famous Milgram experiment. It turns out two thirds of us would kill if ordered to by an authority figure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I intended to make comparisons to the major emphasis on obedience in Mormonism. But by the end of my blurb I ran out of steam. Besides, it seems obvious to me.

At what point would we refuse to obey, even when it is upheld as a high standard in our group?

I was a JW before joining Mormonism (children of a different mother, as they say - to me, so similar that Mormonism felt like coming home after JW'ism). Both the WatchTower Society (JWs) and Mormonism strongly emphasize the tenet of obedience to religious leaders. In fact, one of the ways that JWs demonstrate this is refusal to stand for the national anthem (due to a belief that they serve only God and not the nation state, although they believe in being good citizens in most other ways, such as paying taxes, obeying laws, acceding to political leaders - to a point). I mean, they demonstrate their religious belief that God is their leader and they don't get involved in earthly politics by not standing for the anthem, and they do this due to a strong belief and practice of obeying religious leaders and JW doctrines.

Once you have accepted the belief and its consequences (not celebrating Christmas or Easter, seating through the national anthem, not voting, etc) then you can become quite unthinking about it; i.e. not re-evaluating your position every time.

Recalling that mechanism, I can more clearly see how there could come a time that in spite of whatever is occurring, you could fail to speak up even in the face of gross injustice.

As one small example, at a fundy EV church I attended with a friend (post-JW days) they didn't believe in divorce. If you were divorced you would be "shunned" - forever. A member attended a few times while I was there, who had been divorced and remarried. His new wife had a young teen daughter who came to church with them. The entire congregation shunned them, not even looking at them or saying hello. They came about three times and never again. I didn't know what was happening until I asked someone. Then I felt an overwhelming desire to at least say hello. I especially felt bad for the young girl and how she must feel so embarrassed and uncomfortable. But I went along with the practice of the majority, including my friends who had taken me to that church.

I am quite shocked at myself for not objecting. All I can say is that I was young myself at the time (in my 20s) and shy and inexperienced and a bit clueless and I too was new there and not a member.

That same church went on to scorn me and a friend who came with me one day, right from the pulpit, denouncing women who didn't cover their heads in church. Of course, we were the only two with bare heads so the sermon was directed at us. Very uncomfortable. I hadn't known that was such a strict teaching. Why couldn't they have told us in private? I sat there knowing I would never return but never thought to just get up and walk out early.

Sure enough I didn't go back. And that congregation eventually got so small that church location had to close (they joined a larger congregation in the same denomination).

Small things but they can still teach a needed lesson.

I was a slow learner. Sometimes I squelched my impulses, sometimes I acted more precipitously. And finally I get to now, when I do speak out quite often, not that it's welcome in most instances, and not that it's easy to effect change. Still, I don't feel courageous.

But maybe I'm getting there.

It was Holocaust Memorial Day where I live at my local temple today. We honored Elie Wiesel. His son prepared a talk given in Eastern Europe earlier today that was shared only with our temple here in upstate New York. It was short but moving, to honor the memory of Elie, one of the faces of the Holocaust that helped put into words the horrors of the concentration camps, and the faith of his people ie, their indomitable spirits.

Even in the camps I learned today, as they were facing the gas chambers, the men and women still embraced life - right up to the bitter end. They had their dances, their prayers, their devotions. They struggled with their faith, but didn't let what was happening to them destroy it.

Awards were given to 'upstanders' in our community. App six people (not Jewish,) were noted for service and making a difference in their spheres of influence.

A judge whose mother came as a refugee with her parents from Berlin in 1937, spoke about taking in refugees and without which she would not have been born because her mother and grandparents would have perished in the Holocaust. Her grandmother had a distant cousin from New York City fake papers that he was her brother so she could gain passage to America with her husband and daughter. Her mother told her in Berlin she could go with her husband but to leave her daughter, because they'd be "safe" in Berlin.

Well, the judge's grandmother wouldn't leave without her daughter. That their family survived is testament to the perseverance of those refugees who came here with only a hope and a dream, and determination to forge a life.

One of my cousins, a Holocaust survivor, became one of the Nuremberg trial lawyers following WWII. He lived through the horrors, and watched his own father and later his only brother commit suicide because they'd lost everything they'd ever worked for. It's incomprehensible what they endured. The father had seen the end of his medical practice when the Nazis rose to power in 1933.

Then his sons who'd survived the Holocaust, were among the ship of Dinera Boys who were exiled to Australia from England following the war because England feared there were spies among them. The struggles were too much for one of them. He was married with two daughters. The Nuremberg lawyer remained childless for life. He relocated to Florida eventually, and practiced International Law.

I got sidetracked a little, cause there's so much to talk about re: the Holocaust. Between the Memorial Day event today, my own family history which is quite interesting, and the lessons of the Holocaust, it's exhaustive.

One thing was brought up today by the judge who spoke, and that is we each *can* make a difference.

It may not be major accomplishments we can do. But even little things can mean a LOT.

For example, speaking out or up against injustice, when we have opportunity to. And if we aren't able to be vocal, we can be silent dissenters (my take, based on Resistance Fighters throughout the Holocaust that risked grave harm to themselves and their families by helping to save others.)

A lot of the people living near the camps , had to of known what was going on, after a while. A lot of them and other countries knew too, and did hide them, some successfully ,until the war was over, of course,some were discovered, then killed also. Some sent them to Denmark, then Sweden, since other countries, including ours, sent them back, when they arrived.
What gets me upset is a lot of the higher up nazis commited suicide, so never faced their crime.
A lot of the citizens did hide, so they wouldn't have to join the Naxis, because they knew what the Nazis were doing, or escaped when they still could out the country.

One of my relatives whose mother was a Kindertransport orphan, is of the belief that Adolf Hitler didn't really commit suicide, but was able to emigrate to South America under an assumed identity. His suicide was a coverup (she believes.)

There are some documentaries that have been made that lend credence to that conclusion.

I'm dubious based on what is known ie, he was found with his wife after they'd taken their lives in Berlin. I doubt that was faked. She is convinced it was.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/cia-veteran-claims-adolf-hitler-faked-his-own-death-then-fled-to-south-america-in-submarine-via-tenerife/ar-AAlT641



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 09:57PM by Amyjo.

A lot did go to Argentina. One was caught by Israel and another lived rest of his live there. I'm sure there were more. The ones who were tried were supposedly hung, then sent to the Dachau camp to burn in their own ovens. I hope that story was true.
I can see Hitler trying to pass a fast one, if he could , but I ,like you ,doubt it. He was probably surrounded by the Russians by then. I guess he didn't have any poison tablets on him, or he chose the gun.
I remember decades ago hearing rumours of his having a body double , who was in the bunker, but I think they did DNA test

You want to speak up now?

Object politely to the fact that the gatekeepers for the Syrian refugee exodus (primarily Turkey) are systematically excluding women, children, Christians, and genuine refugees.

Yes, that is one example I was thinking of. Still, one can feel, and be, powerless in such circumstances.

However, I can help those in my neighbourhood who have managed to get out and who genuinely need the understanding and assistance of those of us who are so fortunate as to be able to live our lives largely as we choose, in freedom and hopefully, continued peace.

A geneocide against Christians and other religious minoroties has been going on in the Middle East and nobody give a f.

Anie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A geneocide against Christians and other religious
> minoroties has been going on in the Middle East
> and nobody give a f.

Genocides are going on all over the planet, including long-standing genocides of Muslims in places like Southeast Asia.

To my knowledge, most of the killing going on in the Middle East now is ethnic, rather than specifically religious.

Yes, we should be paying attention to genocides, but that should be regardless of whatever religious tradition the people being murdered follow, or are identified with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 09:28PM by Tevai.

Don't like Christians eh?

Anie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't like Christians eh?

Apparently, you are confusing being concerned about all humans (which I am)...

...with being SOLELY concerned with only those human beings who are Christian (which is apparently your stance).

ALL lives count.

She had been in the military, was a great believer in following orders without question, etc.

When the My Lai Massacre news broke, I remember saying, "Now, THERE is a perfect example of when you look your CO in the eyes and say, "No, sir. I believe this is morally wrong, and I decline to participate. If you feel that this is treason, well, you are now the one with the firearm."

I remember asking during one of our many fights, "But what if the order they give is telling you to do something you KNOW is morally wrong?" Her chilling reply: "It's not up to you to make that call. You do what you are told." I remember asking, "Then what were the Andersonville Trials about? What was Nuremberg about? What is My Lai about?" We might have been speaking different languages. Neither of us could wrap our heads around what the other was saying.

^^^ ^^^ ^^^

I remember times in my own life, and I feel what you are saying, catnip.

:(

Maybe it was this:

"To my knowledge, most of the killing going on in the Middle East now is ethnic, rather than specifically religious."

Christians aren't being targeted by Muslims in the Middle East? What's so difficult about acknowledging that.

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe it was this:
>
> "To my knowledge, most of the killing going on in
> the Middle East now is ethnic, rather than
> specifically religious."
>
> Christians aren't being targeted by Muslims in the
> Middle East? What's so difficult about
> acknowledging that.

My impression (from the news I have read) is that most of the killing going on right now in the Middle East is ethnic (which may include religion as a secondary factor, but is primarily ethnically driven). In other words: Kurds, Yazidis, etc.

This is not my area of expertise, though, so if I am mistaken, and it is the "Christian-ness" that is being targeted (instead of the ethnicity), then I apologize.