....And educate yourself.

This is something I've been thinking about lately and the posts made by Hockeyrat made me think about it some more. I, too, have a American-Korean friend that gets fed up with all the assumptions and ignorance surrounding her ethnicity and identification. I can't remember the poster (maybe it was the same?) mentioned that a friend as no problem with ebing called oriental and that's a personal choice. I am not bothered when people refer to me as Native, Indian, Latina, Hispanic or just racially/ethnically ambiguous, but others with the same ethnicities may not feel the same way.

That's why microaggressions, a term people that are quite ignorant about and like to misuse all the time, can be frustrating to deal with on the regular. If you don't have to deal with the constant assumptions, rude questions, and lack of boundaries that many ethnic people face multiple times a day all over the place you are lucky with privilege.
http://sph.umn.edu/site/docs/hewg/microaggressions.pdf
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/racial-microagressions-you-hear-on-a-daily-basis?utm_term=.xg7mz8lLP0#.hrE3RxzeJA
https://world-trust.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/7-Racial-Microagressions-in-Everyday-Life.pdf
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/microaggressions-in-everyday-life

It's not about being oversensitive or PC culture run amok, it's about understanding that the constant barrage of "othering" is psychologically and sociologically detrimental to all people.

Not all ethnic people or people of various orientations or gender IDs want to be called the same ID and I promise, if you ask politely, like "What are your preferred pronouns?" are perfectly fine, it's a jerk move to ask ethnic people that are native to your country, "But where are you REALLY from?" We live in a world that I didn't imagine 20 years with a whole host of identities that we're still learning about and I imagine it can be confusing and disturbing at times to many people of older generations (no, that is not an ageist statement.) It's okay not to know everything, it's not okay to perpetuate ignorance and bigotry.

Leaving the cult opens the world up in a myriad of ways and if you have a computer and internet access, you have a wide world of information at your fingertips. It really is sometimes like stepping into an alien world, especially if you have not experienced diversity as a standard. Marginalized identities already deal with discrimination and prejudice on a daily basis from the rest of society and if you choose so, you can be an ally and a friend. We need more education and empathy in this world that is connected by the tips of our fingers, not less.

But like I say, if you're going to choose be a willfully ignorant assbadger, you will probably get a fierce response. ;)

I'm still learning, too. A few years ago, there was a long thread about dredlocks. I defended white people wearing dreads using some pretty damn ignorant arguments. When I learned about what cultural appropriation was and why it's damaging to POC and their cultures, I understood the world a little better. I still love well-maintained locs no matter what the person's ethnicity, but now I understand the concerns of people who are not okay with those who appropriate them. And then there's the savage and children explanation that I had to come to terms with.

We're all alike in many ways and we're all different, too, and we can focus on both to better understand each other. If this post even helps one person, it's worth any backlash. It's ok to learn and grow and rethink your views, I promise. It's uncomfortable at first, but as you work through that discomfort, you may learn more than you anticipated.

Edited the second time because the topic line is not the best way to get the message across. Suggestions are welcome.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 03:01PM by Itzpapalotl.

What do you mean by "ethnic"? Aren't we all of some ethnicity or another?

Yes, but in this context, let's go with people who are not Anglo--Euro-American for the most part. It's usually other ethnic identities and other marginalized identities are constantly othered and the the victims of discrimination, prejudice, and stereotyping.

Really, the whole world of information is right there at your fingertips and it only takes a little but to find accurate, in-depth information. You can even read peer reviewed researched not just up above, but using Google. Amazing, isn't it?

Let's see, in this thread you have said the world is confusing to us in the "older generation" , and then dismissed this stereotypic characterization with a casual denial. Then referred to a person you didn't agree with as a " willfully ignorant assbadger". ( whatever that means) and finished up with " smarmy jackasses". If indeed words matter as you argue, maybe you should take some of your own advice.

If you can't answer with a thoughtful response and instead decide to be snide, you will get snide in return. I don't pretend to be a nice person and I've made it pretty damn crystal clear what kind of response you will get depending on what you post.

Discussing what some of the older generations are dealing with is from sociological studies and personal experience. This is not something pulled out of my ass or an ageist argument. There are plenty of people in older generations that are open-minded, allies, and friends to marginalized identities just as there are plenty of people in the younger generations that are bigots. However, in regards to some of the issues raised today, I have heard and read from older people the confusion at the rapid acceptance and social changes right now. If this is not something you can understand, again, you have a whole world of information right there at your fingertips so you can do plenty of research on it.

Also, if you don't comprehend the difference between a thoughtful, genuine question or a response riddled with sarcasm and bigotry, I don't know what to tell you. I am not gentle with people who are consistently and willfully ignorant. I don't mince words or use flowery, placating language in that situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 01:24PM by Itzpapalotl.

I actually think all ages can have areas of confusion here or there since we're all human. I don't pin it on any one age.

When I read posts, I sometimes insert another word in each spot where the poster says this isn't racism or sexism, ageism or whatever. It's sometimes easier to see an unintended or hidden agenda when the new word is used.

This is my first time to read this post and I'm not that interested. It seems personal and a little at loose ends, so I don't want to comment on it, but I said I'd look into it and I did.

If you didn't understand what she meant by ethnic, then you weren't paying attention, or you are trying to be combative.

Call me old fashioned but I hope what you guys are talking about is a temporary cultural phase. The day folks stop obsessing over their ethnic and surface identities and glorifying their personal uniqueness everyone can get back to being a real people again.

No, it's really not a phase. Ethnic, racial, sexual, and other identites--social constructs though they may be--have an undeniable impact on how people are treated. We are not just talking about differences here, we are talking about differences that have been assigned a subordinate position in a social hierarchy. People who live at the intersection of multiple marginal identities (say, gay people of color) who speak out about their experience and seek to find community with others in their position are not "obsessing," they are surviving in a society that has, for much of recent history, used every tool available to keep them subjugated.

^Exactly^ Thank you Inverso and thank you below allegro.
Moving to the Corners hasn't been too much of a culture shock, but it has been eye-opening. I have never in my life been around people that actually looked like me in a lot of little ways that I was bullied for as a child. I get to learn quite a bit more about my ethnic identities that were deemed as the result of evil my ancestors did.

If you don't have to worry about treated sub-par or othered because of your identities, that is what is known as privilege. If you think it's not a problem because it doesn't affect you personally, that's also known as privilege. People are pretty damn fed up with the constant othering, discrimination, and minimization of issues that affect them every day. When people say "It's a phase" or some other such dismissive platitude, it comes across as, "This is not my problem, so you need to shut up about it."

Itzpapalotl wrote, "We're all alike in many ways and we're all different, too, and we can focus on both to better understand each other."

I see people everyday from different backgrounds. I enjoy learning about different cultures. I ask people about their last names and they tell me their history. Sometimes I come right out and ask what is their background, and they are happy to tell me. I ask how to say hello and goodbye in their language. I have never had anyone be offended. I am sincere and want to learn.

When I have gone out of the country, I am respectful of the language and their culture and will work to learn both. I have made mistakes, people know it was not done on purpose and everyone has a good laugh.

In my experience if you ask for help in understanding another culture people will help you. We are human beings and people respond to sincerity and respect in all cultures.

My preferred pronoun is "Unicorn fairy dust", please.

I'm a big fan of cultural appropriation. Especially beer and pizza. Who cares if it offends Germans and Italians? I like French fries too. And Belgian waffles.

The PC people have way too much time on their hands. It's too bad we pay them so much to build up their little fiefdoms.

Cute. You must feel really clever, eh? Smarmy jackasses have too much time on their hands, too.

You don't like waffles?

I'm indifferent to waffles and can take them or leave them.

My haematologist, who is Indian, a lovely chap, has asked me to check my ethnicity if i don't know my lineage.

I left the consultation a bit puzzled.

The subsequent visit brought the same question so i asked him why.

O negative, different shaped red cells and my physical appearance led him to believe i may be Celtic basque.

I googled o negative and the internet fringe theorists gave me cause to tell him that I'm from alpha Centaurus ;-)

Maybe i already have my own planet!

Briggy

LOL

But are you going to have the DNA done that breaks down your ethnic heritage? I'd love to do it. In fact I think I will. I don't think it's very expensive.

Why not just treat them as an individual rather than an ethnicity?

Other than to fight against ethnic based prejudice, I see no value in discussing a person's ethnicity.

That's actually a really good question and I agree with it: Treat people as individuals. However, that is not the reality of the world we live as explained above. People are placed in a social hierarchy of "value" depending on their ethnicities, gender ID, sexual orientation, all things that cannot be cast aside. Ideally we should treat people with respect and kindness no matter where they come from, what shade they happen to be, or who they love. But if you automatically label people as something without asking first, you might be unintentionally offensive.

Some people take a great deal of pride in their ethnicity and get pretty pissed when they are told they are something they are not. I'm not one of them, I'm actually amused when people try to guess my ethnic heritage, but I also understand that not everyone thinks that way.

The points you raised are all about prejudice. I exempted talk in regards to prejudice.

Even at that, the person's actual ethnicity is far less important than his perceived ethnicity. I know of more than one Hindu attacked because they were mistaken for Muslims.

You are right, many people in society put people in ethic boxes, including those that feel it important to ask what a person's ethnicity is. One does not need to know the ethnicity of the person to stand against such boxing, but the should not do it themselves.

In sort, a person's ethnicity is none of your business. Hiding behind the claim that society does it, is not a justification. Even in fighting against prejudice, you do not need to know the ethnicity of the victim, only that there was an attack based on ethnicity.

If you are running around asking people their ethnicity, you are part of the problem regarding a society that judges based on ethnicity.

I'm assuming your statement at the end is a general "you" but if it's not, no, I don't generally ask people about their ethnicities unless we're having a relevant conversation about it. Because of the school I attend and the variety of people that are students, attempts to understand each other's diverse views, experiences, and each other's ethnic cultures are made. But if I am wrong in that discussing issues with ethnic identity, that is something I will have to come to terms with and mitigate. I enjoy cultural exchange, but it can be a fine line between exploitation and appropriation.

I work with a large population of Native children and they ask me all the time if I am Native or what. I am not bothered by it because they are genuinely curious and I usually ask what tribe they are from, but I realize this is not something other people are probably okay with. That is something that needs to be taken into consideration when moving to a new area. When I lived in Yuma, I worked with a lot of Mexican Americans and the topic of the surrounding culture and ethnicity were discussed, especially during potlucks, discussing family, or childhood experiences. I also wanted to be sure I was appropriate and educated during my frequent trips to Mexico.

And you have really good points about the issue as a whole and you are right, that it really isn't anyone's business what a person's ethnicity is, but it is a topic that often comes up, especially in areas with a lot of diversity. Many of the large corporations I've worked with had some kind of diversity training and the topic of cultural differences between ethnic groups occasionally comes up. I think when it's treated sensitively, it's a topic that's ok to discuss, but I may be wrong.

My main point, I suppose, is it's better to be polite and ask polite questions rather than make automatic assumptions, but I know not everyone thinks that either. No one is required to answer questions, of course, or be "the learning experience" 24/7.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 02:34PM by Itzpapalotl.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm assuming your statement at the end is a
> general "you" but if it's not, no, I don't
> generally ask people about their ethnicities
> unless we're having a relevant conversation about
> it.

As to my last statement, you did notice the word "If" was the first word, right? You do mean that the "If you..." means that the statement applies to you only if you meet the condition supplied in the conditional statement, right? *IF* you are not a person that runs around asking people about their ethnicity, then the statement does not apply to you.


> Because of the school I attend and the variety
> of people that are students, attempts to
> understand each other's diverse views,
> experiences, and each other's ethnic cultures are
> made. But if I am wrong in that discussing issues
> with ethnic identity, that is something I will
> have to come to terms with and mitigate. I enjoy
> cultural exchange, but it can be a fine line
> between exploitation and appropriation.

Try understanding the person, not the ethnicity. It is a logical error to assume that people of the same ethic group have the same experiences or ideas regarding ethnicity.

Want understanding? Understand the individuals.

>
> My main point, I suppose, is it's better to be
> polite and ask polite questions rather than make
> automatic assumptions,

That is a false dichotomy. You are stating that the only two options are to ask about ethnicity or make an assumption about their ethnicity. The actual polite and respectful approach is to not ask and NOT ASSUME.

> No one is required to answer
> questions, of course, or be "the learning
> experience"

You are right, nobody is required to answer a rude question, that does not make the question less rude. Nobody should be have to be confronted with intrusive questions and be put in a situation where they feel they will appear rude by not answering an intrusive question.

For someone that claims they do not ask about a person's ethnicity, you are spending a lot of time rationalizing asking people about their ethnicity.

Persobvsethic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For someone that claims they do not ask about a
> person's ethnicity, you are spending a lot of time
> rationalizing asking people about their ethnicity.

You could be right. I don't see it that way, but I don't completely discount your statement. This has been my experience in the various states and subcultures where I have lived and currently live. I don't view it as rationalizing, but you are welcome to your own POV.

People talk to me about many aspects of their lives because many are comfortable talking to me, and yes, I try to understand the individual, especially since I come into contact with a myriad of people from all walks in my work and schooling.

I do have a sneaking suspicion, though, that you're making some inaccurate assumptions about me. So tell me if you think these questions are rude during a flow of conversation:

Where did you grow up? What is that area like and what was it like growing up there? What made you decide to move here? What kind of food do you like? What are you reading or working on right now? That's a beautiful name, is it a family name? Do you have any pets? What does that symbol mean on your art piece/shirt/jewelry? What was your school like and favourite classes? If I know a person knows another language, what does ____ mean? What kind of spices/seasoning are in this dish? Is it a festival or traditional dish?

And the conversation usually goes on from there and sometimes people want to talk about what they have experienced in one identity or another. I don't push for details and I try not to make people uncomfortable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 07:28PM by Itzpapalotl.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:

>
> People talk to me about many aspects of their
> lives because many are comfortable talking to me,
> and yes, I try to understand the individual,
> especially since I come into contact with a myriad
> of people from all walks in my work and
> schooling.

People volunteering information about themselves is different than you asking for the information. Because I do not see any indication that you understand that difference, I do not think I am wrong about this:

>
> I do have a sneaking suspicion, though, that
> you're making some inaccurate assumptions about
> me. So tell me if you think these questions are
> rude during a flow of conversation:
>
> Where did you grow up? What is that area like and
> what was it like growing up there? What made you
> decide to move here? What kind of food do you
> like? What are you reading or working on right
> now? That's a beautiful name, is it a family name?
> Do you have any pets? What does that symbol mean
> on your art piece/shirt/jewelry? What was your
> school like and favourite classes? If I know a
> person knows another language, what does ____
> mean? What kind of spices/seasoning are in this
> dish? Is it a festival or traditional dish?
>

Again, you assume that because they are of a certain ethnicity, they would know what spices are in a dish or even if it is a festival dish.

I ask questions to see if we have anything in common to base a friendship on, NOT to pry for information.

"What are you interested in?" is a favorite of mine. Never, EVER would I ask "What ethnicity are you?" in an effort to establishing a friendship.

> And the conversation usually goes on from there
> and sometimes people want to talk about what they
> have experienced in one identity or another. I
> don't push for details and I try not to make
> people uncomfortable.

Funny, you never talk about establishing a common bond,only about what information you can get from them.

I am a gay man, but if all you did was ask me questions like "what does the pride flag symbolize?" I may answer but we would never be friends.

Perhaps I'm not as clear as I should be. And yes, I do try to establish a common bond with people, especially when I know we are going to spend a lot of time together. I think that's kind of an odd assumption to make, that I'm simply mining people for information.

If someone brings a dish to a potluck (and this is frequent event I participate in) and I ask them about it, is it rude? If they relay that they made a dish that was from their culture, is it rude to ask questions about that dish?

Why would you assume I would ask you a question about the gay flag when I'm already a part of the LGBTQA+? I would ask you where you were from and what you liked to do in your spare time? But if you were wearing, oh let's say an ax pendant, I might ask you about it.

I should add, though, that sometimes even innocent seeming questions get a nasty reaction. I asked someone I was getting to know what her favourite books were and she huffily responded, "I DON'T read!" Ok, then.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 08:50PM by Itzpapalotl.

Ah, so you establish a bond then you treat them like Google. Asking about their ethnicity is NOT the same as asking them about THEM.

Since you have given no indication you even know how to try to establish a person or engage them in a conversation about THEM, it is not odd to assume that you do not.

If you grill them about their ethnicity, you are not treating them like an individual or a friend.

Again with the assumptions. If you mistakenly believe I grill people about their ethnicity, you are quite wrong. You come up with some rather inaccurate speculations about me. Interesting.

MJ, is that you?

Again their ethnicity is their business, not yours. If they want to share it, that is their business, not yours. Asking about ethnicity is asking about something that is none of your business.

If you seek to understand the person, you will learn all you need to know about their ethnicity, just by understanding the person.

If you try to classify the person by "ethnicity" you are applying a label that is likely not going to accurately reflect the person.

I don't know how else to explain it to you. For me, my ethnic and other identities have shaped a lot of my experience in the world- How I am treated and so on. You appear to be trying to paint me as something I am not and you appear to be trying to portray my experiences and the ones with people I know as "grilling" "Treating people like a personal google" and so on. do you want me to break down every single conversation I've had with people where ethnic identity comes up to help you understand?

You are wrong in your assumptions about me. I have made mistakes and have tried to rectify them when it comes to crossing boundaries.

I am trying to make sense out of my experiences as a person with multiple ethnic identities and understanding others' experiences as well. Much of this is new to me and I'm still trying to educate myself about it and understand what others are going through and if they experience similar things. I didn't disclose much of that in the beginning because it didn't seem important at the time, but maybe it is.

People usually relate their ethnic backgrounds to me when we're getting to know each other, because as I stated before, people are comfortable talking to me about a variety of personal subjects. If you choose to not comprehend that, that is on you. It's not my problem if you want to see me as something that is on the perfidious side of things, but I will respond if you try to mischaracterize me. Or are you simply trying to be combative? What is your endgame here?

So, MJ, is that you? Because it sounds like you. If not, it will be rather interesting to see how you interact with other posters here in the future.

I think you are confusing culture and ethnic. They are not the same thing. You appear to be discussing culture, not ethnicity.
http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-ethnicity-and-vs-culture/

What is the difference between Ethnicity and Culture?

• Ethnicity of a person is related more with his racial affinities while culture of a particular people is a shared set of beliefs, morals, values that are reflective of way of life.

• The words Caucasian, Mediterranean, Hispanic, Asian, Black, and so on are used to refer to the ethnicity of an individual though he may have been born in another country.

• Thus, ethnicity has nothing to do with the place of birth and is closer to country of origin that may be the place of birth of one’s parents or ancestors.

• Culture is passed down from a generation to another and serves as a sense of identification. It is reflected in the art of a particular group of people.

Actually, I think you are right and I have been using them interchangeably, which they are not. That is my mistake, and while it's probably not an excuse, I have been under a lot of stress this week which tends to affect how I express my thoughts and words. I use words that feel interchangeable in my mind that don't translate to the real world when this happens, it's not the first time it has happened, probably won't be the last.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually, I think you are right and I have been
> using them interchangeably, which they are not.
> That is my mistake, and while it's probably not an
> excuse, I have been under a lot of stress this
> week which tends to affect how I express my
> thoughts and words. I use words that feel
> interchangeable in my mind that don't translate to
> the real world when this happens, it's not the
> first time it has happened, probably won't be the
> last.

If you know you interchange words that should not be interchanged, you may want to take a little more care in how you address people that try to have a discussion with you. Might stave off some hard feelings.

If people want to have hard feelings because of what I mistakenly write due to fatigue and stress, that is their right to feel that way. Usually I don't notice it unless someone points it out, which you did. Because you were the only one to do so, I guess you get the satisfaction of being right.

Maybe you should work on how you make some wrong assumptions and paint people inaccurately, though.

Really, is that you, MJ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 11:48PM by Itzpapalotl.

My issue with you is not that you were mistaken, it was your condescending attitude when you were infarct mistaken.

What's with the obsession with MJ? Did you make a fool of yourself with MJ as well?

If you want to project that I was being condescending, go right ahead, but that's a nice shiny mirror you have.

No, I was curious, because you sound a lot like him in how you write and respond and you didn't answer the question. Your username shows you've only been here since yesterday, so what's your story?

I stood my ground and was RIGHT. I was only defending myself and trying to get my point across to someone that did not know what they were talking about.

BTW, I was being polite when I suggested that you were confusing ethnicity and culture. From your posts, It is clear that you do not have a clear idea of what either of them are.

So, yeah go ahead and accuse me of being condescending when I was being polite.

Go ahead and accuse me of being condescending when I attempted not to acknowledged your obvious attempts at deflection by trying to make this about some mj person.,

I am sorry that you take someone pointing our that you are in fact wrong as being condescending.

Here is another tip, if you can not or will not use the terms culture and ethnicity correctly, you may want to avoid grilling people with questions unrelated to ether in an attempt to understand both.

Here is a list of questions you implied you would ask about ethnicity "
Where did you grow up? What is that area like and what was it like growing up there? What made you decide to move here? What kind of food do you like? What are you reading or working on right now? That's a beautiful name, is it a family name? Do you have any pets? What does that symbol mean on your art piece/shirt/jewelry? What was your school like and favourite classes? If I know a person knows another language, what does ____ mean? What kind of spices/seasoning are in this dish? Is it a festival or traditional dish?"


Let's take them one by one

> Where did you grow up?

May have nothing to do with culture and defiantly nothing to do with ethnicity. Where they grew up may influence culture but not ethnicity. I know of many ethnic Hispanics that grew up in a ethically white area. The area was culturally "non-Hispanic" but these people still practiced a Hispanic culture, taught by parents. It is also, none of your business.

> What is that area like and what was it like growing up there?

That is about the area, not their culture or ethnicity.

> What made you decide to move here?

Nothing to do with ethnicity or culture.


> What kind of food do you like?

Food tastes do not always follow cultural or ethic lines. Though it may help to get to know the person, it may not help you understand their culture of ethnicity.




> What are you reading or working on right now?

Has to do with the person, not culture or ethnicity.


> That's a beautiful name, is it a family name?

None of your business, may be ethnic, may not.

> Do you have any pets?

Nothing to do with ethnicity or culture.


> What does that symbol mean on your art piece/shirt/jewelry?

If the symbol was related to there culture or ethnicity, you may have actually asked a question relevant to culture or ethnicity.

> What was your school like and favourite classes?

About school, likely nothing to do with ethnicity and may only have influenced, not defined, the person's culture.


> If I know a person knows another language, what does ____ mean?

I know a language that I am not related to culturally or ethnically, this question is, as almost all of your questions, not related to ethnicity or culture.

> What kind of spices/seasoning are in this dish?

That is testing the person's knowledge of cooking a dish, not their culture or ethnicity. Though I am not Hispanic, I know much more about the spices in traditional Hispanic dishes than many of my ethnically Hispanic friends.

> Is it a festival or traditional dish?

OMG, you got a second one write, IF we were talking about culture. Many people that are ethnically associated with a group are not culturally related.


***

Many of the questions you asked are none of your business, and asking questions that are none of your business is rude.

They are also rude because you are claiming that they have some cultural or ethic significance when most did not. That is prejudice and such prejudice is rude.

To summarize,

If you want to politely understand a person's "preferred identification", then you would likely need to understand the person, not their culture. Most people I know do not identify themselves as a culture or ethnicity. Those are part of who they are, but that does not make either their identity. It is rude to claim that a person's culture or ethnicity is their identity.

It is also rude to try to identify the person using terms you appear to not understand.

I made a mistake by interchanging the terms ethnicity and culture, I admitted that. That was my mistake, and I take responsibility for that. But you don't really know a damn thing about me and made a host of outlandish assumptions about how my interactions with people and friends. Because of the circles I run in, we talk about cultural and social issues, and yes, ethnicity and our experiences in our identities. It's not something that's brought up with strangers unless it's in a class and quite often it's a subject discussed in my field.

So again, I made a mistake, was not clear, and clumsily tried to explain something I'm still working out myself. I take ownership for that.
You can think what you want about me and that's your business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 08:11PM by Itzpapalotl.

Do you even read what I write before you rant? Why did you not actually address the *specific* points I made about the *specific* things *you* *wrote*??? Why the dodge?

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I made a mistake by interchanging the terms
> ethnicity and culture, I admitted that. That was
> my mistake, and I take responsibility for that.

And if you actually read what I wrote in my last post, I showed that you went beyond just interchanging the words, you did not use them correctly at all, even accounting for interchanging the words.

I went through a list of questions that *you* *wrote* as indicative of questions you would ask about ethnicity and culture showing how they did not actually apply to either, why are you ignoring that?

I do not need to know who you are to point out that you are misusing the terms so badly in what you are posting *here*, it makes it hard to believe anything except that you can't possibly know what they mean.


> But you don't really know a damn thing about me
> and made a host of outlandish assumptions about
> how my interactions with people and friends.

I know how you misused the words *here* and that us what I am talking about. As I pointed out and you are ignoring, Your missus of the words went beyond interchanging the words to flat out misusing the words in a way that indicates you do not know their meaning.

I do know how you worded your posts here, I am critical of how you worded your posts. I am critical of your missus of the words. The misuse when beyond interchanging the words. I am stating that the way YOU CLAIM TO USE THE WORDS IS RUDE, PERIOD. In a class setting, the rules are different than a social setting, you know that, right?

Your original post made it sound like you were saying your behavior if fine everywhere, now it is only in YOUR situation. And it seems your situation is morphing a bit to fit the situation.

I do like how more and more qualification gets added though. Reminds me of back pedaling.

> Because of the circles I run in, we talk about
> cultural and social issues, and yes, ethnicity and
> our experiences in our identities.

As I pointed out, almost all the questions you indicated you would ask about ethnicity had nothing to do with culture of ethnicity, indicating quite effectively that you do not know what those terms mean.

> It's not
> something that's brought up with strangers unless
> it's in a class and quite often it's a subject
> discussed in my field.

If it is a subject in your field and you demonstrate such lack of understanding, how do you stay employed.

>
> So again, I made a mistake, was not clear, and
> clumsily tried to explain something I'm still
> working out myself. I take ownership for that.
> You can think what you want about me and that's
> your business.

Funny, I listed all the questions you implied were about ethicitity and showed that they were not about ethnicity or culture, indicating that you did not make *A* mistake, you made many different mistakes. why did you not address that?

No, you just went on a meaningless rant and, as usual, did not address the point, supported by evidence, that I made.

So, are you going to actually address what I wrote, or are you just going to rant harder?

Again, let's simplify for your understanding. Please actually read what I wrote before going off on a rant. Any rant that does not address the specifics of what I write will be taken as an admission that you have no valid response.

If you were to say that you wanted to ask me questions to understand my ethnicity or culture, the proceeded to ask me the questions below (questions you stated you would ask to understand ethnicity), I would conclude that you did not know what you were talking about because only two directly relate to culture or ethnicity no matter how you interchange the words.


Questions you wrote indicating they were to understand someone's ethnicity. "Where did you grow up? What is that area like and what was it like growing up there? What made you decide to move here? What kind of food do you like? What are you reading or working on right now? That's a beautiful name, is it a family name? Do you have any pets? What does that symbol mean on your art piece/shirt/jewelry? What was your school like and favourite classes? If I know a person knows another language, what does ____ mean? What kind of spices/seasoning are in this dish? Is it a festival or traditional dish?"

Get it yet? Interchanging the words was only*one* of the mistakes you made.

Again, you are wrong in your assumptions about me. Those questions have led to a lot of discussions of culture and identities in the context they were presented. I don't feel the need to defend any more from you, I will only repeat what I said here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2017 09:02PM by Itzpapalotl.

I quoted what you wrote and explained how it was wrong. There is no assumptions in doing that, I did not assume you wrote what you wrote, I did a cut and paste.

Since you do not address the point I am making by addressing what you actually wrote that you are only try to deflect from the point by invalid claims of assumptions.

I did a cut and paste of what you wrote to show how you were wrong and to show why I do not believe you know what the words mean. NO ASSUMPTION NECESSARY when cutting and pasting what you wrote.

You are wrong in your assumptions about me. Those questions have led to a lot of discussions of culture and identities in the context they were presented. I don't feel the need to defend any more from you, I will only repeat what I said here.

Was stunning to me. The change in acceptance and milieu mix mixture mixing became irrationally "outsider" labels .
Somewhat seemingly randomly at first, I recall in a ward at church when sisters enquirer about my preschoolers different complexions....brought all kinds of complexities...
And church friends trying to get me to wear make up to change my skin and better blend in .... and then, fiasco by the 2000s a new conservatism descended by chance upon part of my state I'm requested to comb flat iron my hair straight , a check on professional dress told no no you don't have to wear a skirt or dress except smooth straight hair professional thick curly hair is too low class, (can you imagine having an administrator telling you that in your evaluation meeting in a school district in California)--- the students will respect you better if you straighten flat iron hot comb your hair straight daily or get a sty
It's to straighten it flat weekly. and all of a sudden adults begin asking other working adults they've worked with for over a decade: ---- what are you?

At x high school i was asked daily up to five times a day mrs. --- what are you (between students and staff) While teaching. I feel like it was harassment. My last high school it was only a couple times a week. I feel that the racial profiling and segregated staff seating at lunches, walking on sidewalks all in serrated sets of staff groups -- (I am describing 2008 - 2014) in --- high school district... was stunning to me because at my former school site, the small staff a group of local colors simply sat together.

So being asked it's like a sorting mechanism for others to segregate based upon, to me. It's like what are you - a poet! An educator theylre like no no no that's not what I mean! What ARE you (urgently) wanting some declaration of race of genotypucal phenotype within culture forms somehow planted in me called ethnicity. Nothing satisfied. Unknown to me apparently another infinitely visible invisible genotype lurked and defied the good ole boys and girls around. "What are you " "what are you" " what are you"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 08:41PM by paintinginthewin.

The sisters in your ward asked you about the complexions of your children? what a strange question, but it reminds me of a book I read at BYU, "Having Our Say," that I still have the copy. The Delany sisters expounded that in their African American family, the kids all ranged in various shades and Sarah, I think, was a bit lighter and people would ask her why she didn't try to pass as white. She also mentioned a story in which her mother, who was a light complexioned woman, was forced to sit in the white car when she didn't have one of her children with her.

Hard to imagine if you've never experienced anything like that. It's a great biography and one of the best books I've ever read.

We're studying social philosophy right now in my philosophy course, and specifically the pros and cons of assimilation versus separatism. One of the videos we watched, Gloria Naylor emphatically declares that integration doesn't work. I don't know what I think about that and it's given me a lot of food for thought when it comes to people's experiences as minorities in this country.

ETA: with your hair comment- Hair politics is disturbing. I, too, wonder why people have such a problem with natural and curly hair. How can that not be considered a type of discrimination? What if flat ironing it daily ends up making it fall out and brittle as it can?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 08:46PM by Itzpapalotl.

The question "what are you?" is, in my opinion, rude. "Sorting" based on the answer is prejudice.

If a person wants to share their ethnicity, that is up to them. Otherwise, it is nobody's business but their own. Doesn't know why it is so hard for some to catch on to that simple concept.

Cannot count the times when directly even assertively asked "what are you" ! It is as if they were trying to ascertain the level of politeness to mete out based on some ethnic hierarchy or stepladder in their mind or community. Also I experienced direct contemptuous jokes about Italians told at the table in front of me while served breakfast. Finally I experienced others contending that I was not x to my face and asserting that I was something else instead-- distancing me yet further from their vision of white Northern Europe descent.

Yeah talk about it

"Finally I experienced others contending that I was not x to my face and asserting that I was something else instead-- distancing me yet further from their vision of white Northern Europe descent."


Oh, yes. I've experienced that quite a bit from fellow Latinos/Hispanic people. It's a bizarre dual consciousness that both sides can be jerks when it comes to mixed ethnicities and you sometimes feel like you're too this for that, and too that for this.

I generally identify people by their names. I judge and treat them as individuals. If they are someone I like, cool. If they somehow offend me, I will simply avoid having them in my life. I feel no need to compel others to behave as I see fit.

Either you're someone I dig and want to be around or you're not. Rather than get my feelings hurt, I just move on with life. Pretty simple and much better for my blood pressure as well.

There is no person I value above peace of mind.

If someone offends me I do avoid having them in my life to all degrees possible, and avoid interacting when it is not possible to avoid to be in the same room (for instance A family funeral)

But not when doing so would cause me to avoid entire events for one offensive person or an openly racist group of people.

HOWEVER NOONE'S OFFENSIVENESS diminishes or turns me away from: my recreation, cultural pursuits, professional engagements, pursuit of occupation, intellectual opportunities, lectures, live speakers, qi gong circles, meditation groups, yoga class, professional conventions, pursuit of business money making making opportunities, enjoy regular pleasures along public state parks national parks streams ocean beaches, public piers, restaurants bistros bars and cafes with scenic views, and porches overlooking public streets. Any public event or activity I care about, I should have a right to - & no, no bigoted offensive indivdual's proclivity to generate hateful attitude towards me at an activity could turn me away from the coastlines and trails and diverse opportuity in my beautiful state- because of one ugly little mind addled with hate.

We're not going back to the music group of performers and even waiters for Bing Crosby back before 1962 civil rights movement, not even being allowed to sit at the bar in their own club they preformed in because it was segregated. politeness and compliance avoiding conflict by one's mere presence - say on this board, or a public beach or public state park, or public lecture at a public university- because some one said or spoke as a racist.... is not ok with me. I am not going to willingly segregate and avoid obviously great places because someone there expressed open bias or racist hate.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 03:03PM by paintinginthewin.

If there is an event or gathering I want to attend, I would never let the prospect of an "offensive" person being there stop me from attending. When I say I avoid people like that, I mean that I avoid inviting them into my world, making them part of my circle. I don't mean that I am incapable of being around them, or interacting on an "as needed" basis.

It would be pretty impossible to live in this diverse world otherwise.

But if you have to work with and deal with people that are purposely offensive or ignorant, how would you handle it then?

From my days at Allstate, I would get some pretty nasty callers. I remember one woman in Florida calling in a claim and ranting about all the Hispanics taking over and she was tired of dealing with them. At the end of the call, she asked for my name again, to which I replied with my very traditional Spanish name. I wonder what she thought about that after the call.

If a loved one we truly care about says something less than okay about a marginalized identity out if really not knowing it's a bigoted statement, do we ignore that and move on because it's not worth it to explain the history behind that word and why it's not a polite or just a plain terrible thing to say?

If someone is being nasty, bigoted, or mouthing off about marginalized identities, are we just supposed to always walk away or do we try to explain why their words and actions are not appropriate? And steer them towards maybe a more educated path? If they decide to continue, when do we walk away and shake our heads at their bigoted ignorance and when do we stand up to them, especially if they're attacking an innocent person minding their own business? (Things I seen with my own two little eyes.)

If you don't have to regularly deal with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, coupled with "well-intentioned" microaggressions, you are one lucky person indeed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 02:01PM by Itzpapalotl.

Often protected us out of Zion from felony assault ... because they'd loose their temple recommend if they lynched us and got caught... making straight racist bigotry just rude people not dangerous people.

When one is walking "in the world" one must have a view as to ones safety... and not sit next to say a Nazi lowrider gang member sporting his gang insignia jacket publically ,for instance walk over to generate a confrontation over lack of acceptance..of his view, of what he views me or you. I just don't think that's safe or fair to my husband because he would be the one either medically injured defending me after what I started verbally if the nazi lowerider won, and he would be the one legally charged and loose his professional licenses if the nazi lower rider lost. that is not fair to my husband or to myself. I have thought about this.

Furthermore if one has minor dependents one has to consider their risks in both a racist mixed neighborhood vs a marginalized segregated neighborhood, and weigh the balance gathering the best educational advantages you can... even if it means some glares from other parents in the band club or across the football stadium because racists exist and put their kids on the same team as our children. In fact they may not even recognize all of my children which probably upsets them worse.

How protected is your job category...do you teach at a public university or a work place with federally mandated anti-discrimination guidelines, or own a company? It's pretty ugly. And rudeness has come out of the gutter or from under hidden covers... I was shocked at the last high school reunion I was willing to attend, how former friends had devolved into a series of racially segregated table seating areas with their backs carefully turned to each other.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 02:34PM by paintinginthewin.

Is going through the proper channels does not always work in one's favour.

When I worked in a gift and gallery store that was the epitome of Native appropriation and exploitation, the head manager was a serious bigot. The nasty, racist words towards various ethnicities that would come out of her mouth were shocking, especially since myself and another manager at the time are Latina. I went to the owner, explained the situation and what did I get for it? The other manager making shit up to get back at me, like I was drunk at work (I was not) when my slip-on sandal slipped under my foot and I almost fell over. How do we handle these things when even the proper channels can't or won't fix the issue? And if you make a complaint, do you then get a target on your back?

I heard several years later, from a traveling salesman I knew from that store and coincidentally was the salesman for another tourist shop I worked at 10 years ago, that she was finally fired, but for what he did not know.

I actually don't have to deal with people like that regularly, thankfully. I find most people are friendly and kind and have the best intentions.

Could have a lot to do with where I live. On the rare occasions I am faced with someone truly offensive, I tend to express my disapproval (if I deem it safe to do so) and walk away or hang up the phone.

I am sorry for you and others that deal with nasty people regularly.

To try to be more inclusive of other identities that are often othered and marginalized to try expand understanding.

One of my nieces has a rare form of dwarfism. It was not hereditary, but something that spontaneously happened in utero with her development. I often wonder how much ableism, prejudice, and both ignorant and mean-spirited comments she will have to deal with as she grows up or if will be better when she becomes a teen and young adult.

http://www.lpaonline.org/faq-

I hope it will be better then.

Is there anyone in your life that you worry about what they deal with? Or do you deal with something along these lines and how do you handle it?

I'm glad you brought up ableism. I went to an LDS funeral for a second cousin this week. She had been a wheelchair user for about 30 years and didn't have movement in her arms or legs.

I know the folks who spoke meant well and genuinely loved this cousin, but the way they went on about how she would now be dancing with Jeezus, how she was free from the miserable restrictions of her body, that now she could *really* serve God... just... wow. And there were several presumable nevermos in wheelchairs at the service who had been part of her community. I was cringing the whole time.

Thank you for these kinds of posts, Itz-. I don't agree with all you say, and I'm on the fence/considering other things on this that you say; but I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment/concern etc. I just haven't found where I stand on this stuff, my ground is always shifting depending on what I read. But I thank you for writing so well and intelligently on these kinds of subjects.


Question: what's your opinion on Rachel Dolezal's feelings that she is really black? A man can feel that he is really a woman, and seek corrective surgery to align their feelings with their appearance, is Rachel's case the same thing?

Anyway, my question is rhetorical. I just wanted to say thank you.

Human.

No, I don't think Rachel Dolezal's case is the same thing as trans people's identifications.

If I can remember where I found the articles that explain that situation, I will post some links. There is a subset of people that don't feel their Anglo-European identities are enough and appropriate others in order to feel exotic, though,

I'm ok with people not agreeing with what I think or write as long as people have an intelligent and thoughtful response. A lot of this is all fairly new to me as well and I'm bound to not express myself as clearly as I can with other subjects or make a faux pas because I'm still working a lot of it out and learning. It's also been a rough week with a final paper and all my kitties getting sick, so that usually affects my manner of expressing myself. I think I'm saying one thing, but saying something different that is most definitely not what I mean.
Thank you for your support. I really hope we're working towards more understanding as a society, but it sometimes feels like we're taking several steps back.