Here's a discussion on church growth and problems with missionaries and lying leaders and prophets that don't prophecy, etc.

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45221

One quote:

"All I have are anecdotes, but my children are right in the mission-age group now, and this is a very sensitive topic in my family right now. My son said that half the missionaries who went home with him were going home early, including my son, who has since left the church because of his mission experience. My other son isn't wanting to go now, because of that.

Another missionary I'm close to has seen similar rates of early departure in his mission. He's got about 6 months left before he comes home, and he's the only person still out from his MTC group. They've all gone home early, and this elder very nearly quit out of discouragement last month.

Judging from the amount of attention the church seems to be giving to missionaries coming home early, I suspect this is pretty widespread. For my family personally, though, it's been an unmitigated disaster.

Also, the number of converts baptized per missionary has hit a 30-year low (3.38 converts per missionary last year). That may be an even longer-term low, but I've only grabbed stats since 1980. Just for reference, 1989 was the 30-year high-point, at 8.03 converts per. [edit: the published stats for full-time missionaries only goes back to 1976, so 3.38 is the lowest on public record.]

Please, please, lower the missionary age to 16! The Inspired Boner.

"Just for reference, 1989 was the 30-year high-point, at 8.03 converts per."

That was when I left for my mission. And of the eight of us in my district in the MTC, only three of us came back on schedule after two years.

So I think this has been going on for a long time...missionaries leaving early, getting sent home, abandoning their mission. Only one anecdotal experience but 3/10 in my district??

The morg has dealt with this for a while. They will continue to and it's a shame. They are in this for the long haul, although they prefer to keep hush hush as much as possible. The morgbots don't see it.

The more that leave early, the more that show up on sites like this.

RM's need to get their stories out there. Each one is important. The church is using these kids and their families. The church doesn't give a lick about any suffering that is caused to these kids or their families.

The corp. does everything it can to hide the danger these kids are placed in. They manipulate the kids and their parents to stay silent when things go horribly wrong. If they say anything the church parades out their army of lawyers to intimidate everyone into silence. There are many layers of mormons that are complicit in this abuse.

It's the same thing that's going on at BYU with the rape victims.
If you tell, you pay. If you're one of the predators, you're protected. It's the sickest of sick systems.

If you've been abused in any way by the mormon church, TELL. Keep telling until you're heard.

Yeah, them 1990 convert baptisms created a big mess in my mission. We had to spend a third of our time trying to locate these "day baps" and get them to come back to church. However, we first had to locate them. So many of these lived in the Border Apartments located at 571 Grand Central Blvd, Laredo TX. When you peddled to that location, you were in the middle of an industrial park. Also, visited lots of empty lots, abandoned houses and railroad tracks looking for lost members.

That website is sick. All those TBMs making excuses and apologizing for abuse of church power. I think one poster attributed all the problems facing missionaries due to their failure to make Christ the center of their lives. Simply sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 09:51AM by messygoop.

TEXAS MCALLEN MISSION! I served from 2001-2003 and we were constantly cleaning up membership rolls for the wards down there. To be fair, others that came later probably had to clean up my mess too. Of the 22 people I baptized only 3 or 4 were still attending by the time my two years were up.

When I went on my mission, it was very clear that many of the missionaries in my mission were just there marking time, miserable and just waiting for their time to be up so they could go home honorably.

The things a guy has to do to get laid.

Exactly.

OOSO - the Office of Officially Sanctioned Orgasms (fmr. Dept. of Marriage and Family) would like to have a word with both of you! You're leaking too much info and they don't like it!

Come, come, ye youth, you'll toil and labor here;
Not with joy wend your way.
So hard to you this mission will appear,
A disgrace you'll be on that day.
'Tis better far for the top 15 to thrive
Their useless cares, they're barely alive;
Know this, no joy in your hearts will dwell—
All's not well! All's not well!

Don't you dare mourn or think your lot is hard
It may be so; but you have no right.
By now you know there is no reward
Even so don't shun the fight
Don't play with your loins; for goodness sake.
That kind of self love is fake;
Soon we'll have to tell this awful tale-
All's not well! All's not well!

There is no place that for you has been prepared,
You're barely out of the nest,
The lies and the hurt make you afraid;
That you've wasted your time with the rest.
The music in the air makes you not want to sing,
About the Mormon God, he's not your King;
It more clear than ever you have to tell—
All's not well! All's not well!

You just might die before your mission's through,
Unhappy day! All's not well!
You still aren't free from toil and sorrow, no;
Your mission continues on the other side of the veil!
And if your life continues in pain,
Your mission will be served in vain
At the end you realize you've been through hell—
All's not well! All's not well!

That was very clever - I used to love that song, but your lyrics have a little more meaning now, after all these years.

LDS Mission is a boot camp for the Nazi-youth to get them ready for the lifetime of service in the church. It is a real initiation into the cult. The leaders are very aware of the mess and the results; however, since they know the real purpose of it, they do nothing to resolve.


My son was asked to give a After-Mission talk 2 1/2 months after his mission (waited, due to the traumatic brain injury). He did well while reading out his substantially revised script then he suddenly started to bear testimony and said, Mission was worth it, even though It was tough and I had TBI. I asked him why he said that. His response was: I had to say it. I was pressured to say. I felt it from the congregation and the Bishopric sitting behind me.

Mission is not a testimony building experience.

The indoctrination is so deep. I knew before I ever went on my mission what I HAD to say in my report speech when I finished the mission. It is just what is done. I totally understand why your son felt he HAD to say those things.

Missions are about the missionary, not the mission.

"They tested it in other areas first before extending it to the whole church. What they found was letting them go (on mission) earlier increased the odds of those missionaries staying active and marrying in the temple. Also, since the marriage age is increasing, they didn't want sisters leaving when elders their age were getting home."

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45221&sid=2d8dfa82c68d42db208d41b678782eb8&start=30#p776008

Another poster on the linked site agrees.

"I think it was inspired. The year between 18 and 19 for a YM, is when we lose a lot of YM. Now, some of them will still leave the Church after serving a mission, but retention of those ages has been much better. .... Sadly some missionaries are not converted, and I am sure that is what parents are hoping for when they send them. I also love that the YW can go at 19 now, because I have a daughter who wants to serve a mission, and when it was 21 I didn't think she would ever make it. Now, I am quite confident she will."

This merely shows that the church is more interested in heavier indoctrination delivered at an earlier age--by only one year, may be, but during one exceedingly important year--than with the maturity and mental stability of the young man, and that some good Mormons are okay with that. It's a harsh indictment of both.

cludgie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This merely shows that the church is more
> interested in heavier indoctrination delivered at
> an earlier age--by only one year, may be, but
> during one exceedingly important year

They're trying to get them deeper into the fold BEFORE that year
away from home at college. Up to their first year of college
these kids have never had a mind of their own. They were
constantly pressured by parents, neighbors etc. to play the part
of good TBMs. Suddenly they find themselves in a non-Mormon
environment where critical thinking is valued over testimony.
It can be a heady experience involving a lot of re-evaluating
for a Mormon. That's the year when a lot of them re-think the
whole mission idea. The suits decided to eliminate that year
until AFTER they had washed and dry-cleaned their minds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2017 09:42AM by baura.

This is my favorite so far from this thread with so many TBMs so desperate to go down with the ship:

"I wonder if our statistics of baptizing our kindred dead makes up for the decrease in convert baptisms. More temples around the world. Temple work has been hastened, or increased."

I would bet my bottom dollar and yours too that the names going through the temples are all on their twentieth round or more. All the temples getting the same list of names every few years. I have seen bits and pieces of proof of this.

And the word,"hastened" really brings it all home. That's so TBM.

like holocaust jews are "kindred dead".

In 1970-1972 there were 22 missionaries in a group that all went out at the same time to my mission. We rode a train from Salt Lake City to Chicago and then flew to Boston from there. One missionary stepped off of the train in Kansas to buy a new cassette tape and didn't get back on the train in time, he was left behind. Never seen him again.

At the end of my sentence I requested to go home 2 weeks early and it was granted. In the Boston mission home there were 7 other missionaries in that original group who had all requested to go home 2 weeks early. We talked briefly and we all shared the same dislike for being there.

Once I was home I started to tell a neighbor kid what being on a mission was really like. My Dad overheard us and took me aside. He warned me very sternly to keep my damn mouth shut. "It was a good experience and you better not say anything different, understand?" I was afraid of my Dad and from then on when I was asked what it was really like, I just kept my mouth shut.

Ever wonder why returning war vets won't talk about their experiences? It's much the same, at least for me.

"One missionary stepped off of the train in Kansas to buy a new cassette tape and didn't get back on the train in time, he was left behind. Never seen him again."

Some folks 'round Temple Square claim he's still out there somewhere, and that from time to time he's been glimpsed in the Kansas twilight, still asking for that train to Boston....

Does coming home 2 weeks early count as an "early returner" or do they let it slide?

Returning one month early is usually considered "honorable" to the LDS Corp. A situation developed when our mission's calendar of transfer cycle was returning to the end of the month after having been set for the first of the month. So when I had planned to return home at the beginning of Aug; they had changed it to the end of August. The last week of August would have set me back even further with my studies as it would have been too late to register for the Fall semester. I already felt that I had lost a lot of time as it was. Therefore, I chose (along with another 10 or 11 elders) to return home at the beginning of July. It was a full month early and there was zero negativity as far as I could detect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2017 07:26AM by messygoop.

"Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty." God, what a joke. "Principles of liberty," indeed.

missions are awful and its about time people started realizing it.

I heard so many positive lies about missions before going on my own.
I got there and the reality of how pointless it all was slapped me in the face. There were plenty of others who seemed to be having a miraculous experience but many of us hated being out there.

I left at 13 months myself. I just couldnt go along anymore after that.

Those annoying pesky anti-Mormons have been going around saying that the Church is not true. And this hurts the morale of missionaries. Well we can very easily overcome this problem in the Church :) When people see that the Church is so honest, truthful, transparent, and forthright about everything they will say "gosh, what a super honest church, those critics are wrong, and I want to learn more about this Church to come to know its true".

One good way I can do this is by loudly advertising here the website links at lds.org for where the Church has its detailed financial and statistical reports. You critics will look like manure when people see very detailed cash flow statements, revenue/expenses statements, and assets/liabilities statements globally, by country, by State, etc. along with the activity reports by Mission, Stake, Temple, Country, gender, age groups, etc. Same goes for all the historical records, essays being included in the curriculum, and other so-called complaints about the Church covering up the facts. And I will be smiling as I see the truth confounding your complaints on this topic as the missionaries start seeing potential converts coming to them in droves saying "I want to be part of such a true, honest, and transparent movement".

Now I got to admit that its a little embarrassing to me right now that I haven't yet produced the website links to all these various reports. I suppose I should do so as it kills my credibility and makes me look like a fool in the meantime. And that's got to change if I'm going to get you all back assimilated into the glorious Kingdom. But where can I find time to do it with all the responsibilities that need to be fulfilled. Are you aware that the Lord's toilets need some more scrubbing at the chapels, especially now that so many people have abandoned these responsibilities to become exmormons and Heavenly father needs the moneys formerly earmarked for Janitors to be earmarked for some other sacred purposes? So its up to the remaining Active ones to just keep plugging away with their shoulders to the wheel pushing on. Thank God for the miracles of the 21st century though as now Utah is the Prozac capital of the world to help the Saints cope. By their fruits (and anti-depressants) shall they be known :)

I wonder how much is about the mission and how much about the "generation." I hate to be the one who starts with, "this generation...." But, of note (anecdotal talking with parents of kids this age), it seems there are more kids in general not finishing college, feeling anxious, pressured and stressed. These are not LDS kids (I don't really talk to those folks except family members who pretend everything is perfect), but average everyday kids some with some religion and some without.

My son who is 9 is among them and I attributed to his father dying when he was 12 and issues related to that. However, it seems he is not atypical for his age group in feeling anxious and unmotivated.

Above should say 19 instead of 9. The perils of not logging in--can't correct your error ;)

Being 9 years old is pretty way up there when it comes to maturity to make important decisions. In fact when I was a very mature age of 8 I was accountable to make the most important decision of my life. I made the sacred covenant to obey all the commandments in the Church. This resulted in me eventually making many more sacred covenants as obedience was the promise I made when I was so mature. So if your son is 9 then he is way ahead of where I was when I was that very mature age of 8. I suppose you can laugh at me on this, though I hope you will do it less than loudly if you have been to the temple. But its a sacred doctrine that when someone is 8 that they are accountable and ready to make such a vastly important commitment to spend the rest of their life being fully obedient and loyal to the Church.

As I understand it, you can join at 8, but can't quit until you're 18?

The mission president, stake president, and his parents did everything possible to keep him on his mission. He was in the mission home for quite a while. FINALLY, a nonmember psychiatrist they had sent this missionary to told the MP that it was absolutely necessary that this kid go home and he is home now. The indoctrination by the family is over the top. The day after he got home, they had him at the temple. They are supervising him 24 hours a day, forcing religion down his throat.

My friend is no longer active mormon and so at least his nephew knows he has someone to go to.

My kids have many friends who have returned early.

I hate to say that I "talked" my then boyfriend into going on a mission at age 20 back in 1977 (he went to Boston, but not the same years as someone above). It has been really interesting to me to read on RfM the experiences of missionaries, very EYE OPENING.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 02:23PM by cl2.

Do the early returners still get a participation trophy?

If they could give out scarlet letters to the early returners, I'm sure they would.

dp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they could give out scarlet letters to the
> early returners, I'm sure they would.


That's what I think they would do if they could. My TBM ex-husband had a friend who came home from his mission early, and that friend ended up committing suicide because of the depression that resulted from being considered a failure for not completing the sentence.

At least on that particular thread, I'm seeing progress. Several posters have seen missionaries come home early, even their own children. They are generally showing compassion and tolerance for those missionaries (even if they have a sense of bewilderment about it). One board member mentioned the pressures of missionaries having to be so focused on numbers. A few advocate for using your own common sense in terms of taking directives from church authorities.

We even get a shout out on page 4 of that thread:

"Do a google search on Mormonism and the second entry is Recovery from Mormonism. How does that work when investigators can read that, and elders, too? I could see more depression if you are fed that info daily by people you contact.

There are legitimate problems with doctrine and history the church will have to address. They have admitted some things in the essays, but they're going to have to go further."

I believe this statement was made by SWK.

In almost all other faiths, young men feel a calling or a deep belief and desire to become a priest, pastor, etc.

Why send all worthy young men on missions without the strongest of beliefs and desire?

It seems blatantly oppressive and reminds me of the military draft.

The practice almost guarantees the spiritual destruction of these young souls.

TSCC should require a mandatory 3rd party psych assessment.

Any other thoughts?