My husband and I were both converts to the church. My husband was active for 20+ years before we married. I was only active for about 4 years and then decided I did not agree with some of the church teachings. Both my husband and I quit attending church.

We now have custody of two of my husband's grandkids. They are 11 and 14. They were removed from my stepdaughter because of severe neglect and abuse due to her drug and alcohol use. The 11 year old was just diagnosed bipolar. I have the majority of the child raising duties since my husband works.

Recently my husband decided to return to the church. I will not be returning. The kids' therapist has said that until my husband goes to church for 6 months without missing, he is not to be taking the kids. I am not thrilled about them attending at all.

My husband just announced that the kids will be baptized once they return to church. I am past angry and vehemently disagree. I have suggested that once the kids are adults, they can make that decision. My husband informed me that he wants the kids around "good" people so they need to be going to church. I don't know what to do about this. Any suggestions?

They can go to church without being baptized.
I know that may be a compromise, but it really is ridiculous how the church coerces kids into making commitments like that



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2017 02:23PM by nonsequiter.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2017 06:22PM by canary21.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2017 06:24PM by canary21.

Remind your husband that Satan's plan was all about coercion to force compliance. Ask him why he's so gung-ho about implementing Satan's plan.

That is useful for my discussion with my husband.

Can the children be baptized without my permission? My husband and I both have custody of them. Their parents have lost their legal rights. How will the church view this?

No, the official handbook says they can not be baptized with out the written consent from both guardians.

Whether they follow the manual where you are located is a different question.

If there does occur a instance where a minor child is baptized without those responsible being aware of the parents’ objections, an appropriate accommodation would be made. If the parents were to require that the baptism be revoked, their demand would be honored, and the baptism would be considered as null and void.

The mormon church is a poor place to go for a good influence. Almost any other church would be better. There are also Boys and Girls clubs, scouting, and sports teams. Talk to the kids and find out if they have interests that could guide you to help them find the support they need.

the mentally ill do not 'need' baptism as they are not 'held accountable' for any sins they commit. It's the only free-pass the church gives, although this may have changed over the years. As I child I really hoped I would be mentally ill as an adult as it seemed the only way out of the trap this church is.

Besides, the lessons they will hear at church will be about how their family is not good enough to be 'together forever' and how if their lives are not wonderful and like a bed of roses then they are not being 'righteous enough' which will drive them crazier than adolescence does. They will repeatedly wonder why they chose their parents, and they will also wonder why they are treated like outsiders and/or the ward project for under privileged kids.

I agree with other posters that suggest a different church - there are plenty 'good' people they could be around without joining a religious cult. Join a bunch of volunteers and do service for others less privileged / homeless / elderly - that would be more beneficial in promoting good mental health for those kids than tscc or any other church could ever possibly be.

Trust your instincts - hubby's cultural brainwashing is bubbling up to the surface. It is a pre-programmed response he is going through.

Good luck.

First off, you're not in the position to huff and puff about it. You don't have a whole of power here given this is your husband's family.

Actually I do because I am raising these kids as my own and I have the same legal custody that he has. I am not just babysitting them.

Oh, baloney. She has every bit as much power as her husband does in this case. She s the children's guardian, period.

canary21 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First off, you're not in the position to huff and
> puff about it. You don't have a whole of power
> here given this is your husband's family.
Jeez! What's second or third off?

Talk about bad advice.

Your husband is doing what he believes to be in the best interests of his grandchildren. He may feel like he failed his daughter, and doesn't want to impair these children (even though you have your reservations,) he's leaning on the church to be a support system.

It might be wise for you to compromise if it means keeping the peace. He's not insisting you return to church activity.

It isn't something I'd condone personally, but then they aren't my grandchildren.

I understand your feelings, but he has strong feelings about it as well, and is trying to put those children ahead of his beliefs about the church.

I wouldn't stir the pot if it were me. He'll be the one taking them to church so will it really be an imposition on you if he does? It might steer those kids away from the drug and alcohol disease their mother is struggling with.

I appreciate your advice. I have my own strong feelings. My husband only goes to church when he feels guilty. The Mormon church is more of a way of life than just a belief. I have compromised. He can take them to church once he attends for 6 months without missing. They can choose to get baptized when they are adults. I don't believe that children should make that decision as children.

And I believe that alcoholism and addiction is a disease. Religion is not the answer, unfortunately. My husband is an alcoholic and his first wife was a drug addict.

I understand the tough position it puts you in. I went back to the Mormon church when my children were then in their teens, for a stint.

Worst decision I could've made at the time. If hindsight were 20/20, we'd have gone anywhere else than there.

My kids and I attended quite a few different churches since leaving the cult when they were children. Like your husband, I felt it was important to have good role models in their lives, and to learn that faith is substantive to help them through life.

Wonder if you and your husband might consider compromising by attending a church you can both agree on and approve? :)

I should have been a little more clear before because I was trying to communicate what Amyjo just said. mkgmt17, I know you are coming from the right place, but this is your DH's grandchildren and your DH is coming from the right place. I understand the conflicts and issues with TSCC, but this isn't really about that. It's about ensuring stability for his grandchildren and keeping things together. End of the day, your DH has the last say.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2017 02:39PM by canary21.

They are his grandchildren by blood, mine by choice. I am legally as much of a grandparent and guardian of these children as he is. I made the choice to raise them in stability and teach them right from wrong by example. My husband has not made that same choice. He raised 5 children in the church. Four of them are drug addicts and alcoholics as he is, which is why I am raising them.

The younger child has been diagnosed bipolar because I take her to all of her therapy appointments and psych appointments. When we got the older child he was failing 5th grade. He is now in the middle of applying for the IB program in high school with straight "A's" and higher test scores, also because of my parenting. My husband is not a great parent but is not home much.

The older child does not want to go to church. The younger one does because she wants to wear a pretty dress and play with other kids. I don't think that is a mature reason for being baptized myself.

I do have equal choice in this matter. Blood doesn't hold all of the cards. Sometimes responsibility and commitment as well as integrity matters just as much. BTW, if you have to apologize ahead of time for possibly being offensive, you know you are being offensive.

This really isn't about the kids, although they are important in this. This is about your relationship with your husband. It is unclear from your post whether you got married as active Mormons or not. However, you both gave up the Church and lived your lives church free from what I see.

These kids have been through chaos. What they really need is stability and something they can count on: ongoing love and support from you and your husband. They need to be able to build trust again that those who are taking care of them are going to be there for them in the future.

Your husband's desire to go back to the church is probably some reflex action from long term programming, but it isn't making the situation better.

His going back to the church and bringing the kids splits up your family with the kids being taught not to trust the apostate/heretic in their midst. It undermines an important relationship that they need to build with you, but it also undermines and threatens your marriage.

A little reading through this forum's archives will show how many times a spouse's return to activity leads to the destruction of the marriage. Putting aside your husband's misplaced idea that exposing these kids to Mormons is exposing them to good people, his choices and insistence will probably just lead to more trauma for these poor kids.

Good luck

I will spend some time reading the forums and that is exactly what is happening.

When I married my husband, I was a very new convert and knew little about the church. Once I learned more than the missionaries taught I became uncomfortable and chose to stop attending.

My husband has a history of attending church when his wife attends. When I stopped attending, so did he. He was struggling with his addictions and joined AA.

He now wants to be a better person and I support him fully. I just do not believe that the church is the answer for me and since I do not believe the teachings, I would like the kids to have time and maturity to make the decision of their baptism for themselves as adults. I do believe that our 16 year marriage is in jeopardy if my husband continues bullying me.

You're in a difficult position because you're concerned about the effects that Mormonism might have on these kids. You're also concerned that your relationship with your spouse is working and you don't want to cause discord. I can appreciate the difficulty of being in this type of bind.

Here's what I would suggest--your spouse has custody, but he must act in the best interests of the children. I'd talk with him about the two of you visiting with the therapist to determine what's in the best interests of the children with regard to baptism and membership in the Mormon Church. Also, what can the two of you do to turn this into a positive experience for all concerned. I think family counseling is in the best interest for all of you. I'm concerned that in a later post you mentioned that he bullied you. That has to stop!

Very best wishes!

As anyone asked either child their wishes??? The opinion and desires of a fourteen year old may surprise all concerned.

Gatorman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2017 01:19AM by gatorman.

Here are four short articles from Richard Packham's excellent website. You might find help in these in articulating your discussions with your husband.

Of all of the churches that I have personal experience with, the Mormon church is at the bottom of the list of groups in which I would ever consider raising children. Many other churches teach reason, knowledge, compassion, and honesty.The Mormon church teaches fake versions of all of the above, and puts a terribly heavy burden of guilt and false information on children, as well as everyone else.

And, as has been mentioned often, the world is full of good people who get together *without* guilt, dishonesty, demands for money, and all of the other negative things about the Mormon church.

http://packham.n4m.org/questionnaire.htm

http://packham.n4m.org/spouse.htm

http://packham.n4m.org/better.htm

http://packham.n4m.org/children.htm

You could try sending a certified letter (with a return receipt including a signature), to the general authorities office that has jurisdiction over your area. Tell them who you are and who your children are, and that you will sue the church if they violate your parental rights, even if they do it accidentally.

I once sent a certified letter to the church headquarters (GA) to get a bishop to change his behavior. On discussing that same matter later with the Bishop, he admitted "it looks like I don't have any choice in the matter", and confirmed that he would comply. Just don't forget to remind the GA that your lawsuit will emberras the church if you have to file it. The church has deep pockets and they hate to be publicly emberrassed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 03:08AM by azsteve.

If he wants them around "good people," they shouldn't be going to church at all.

I really can't stand the misconception that it's a good way to raise kids. They will not be impervious to drugs and alcohol as teens just because they go to the Mormon church. The iron fist of Mormonism can actually give rise to extreme rebellion. Also, indoctrination takes root so quickly. Then there's the issue of self-esteem and not meeting the ridiculous expectations. My TBM mother is super devout, attends the temple and institute regularly and yet she STILL feels not good enough. Her self-esteem is terrible. And it translates to all areas of her life.

I naively let my parents take my 5-year old daughter (in my mind to be social) to church for a bit last spring/summer. She was starting to get indoctrinated so fast it scared me. Also, she would come home feeling all sad that her dress wasn't as fancy as the other girls. I put her in a nice dress, hair done, looking nice, not knowing how 'fancy' the other girls dressed. Her self-esteem was bruised. I will never subject her (or my other kids) to that toxic religion ever again!

As others have stated, there are plenty of good people around who will not judge and shun and manipulate. I don't agree with baptizing children whatsoever. I would try and get them involved in other things (check your local community center) and then maybe he will see that there can be positive experiences and people outside of tssc.

It sounds as if, legally, these are foster children. If so, a whole different set of rules apply (depending on your state). In my state, nothing religious can happen until the child is 18 once they are made a ward of the state. That means, no baptism, confirmation, bar mitzvah (among other things) until the child is 18. You may need to check on this.

mkgmt17, as much as I do not like the LDS church, bottom line is that regardless of whether your DH's daughter is a drug addict or not, she is still their mother and will always have that right and title. She may have made some bad choices, but she does love them. Your DH has more of the say here because it is his daughter and his grandchildren. He's going to do what he believes will be best for them. He's in a very weak moment in his life. I despise the church and its leaders for defrauding its members as much as every ex-mo does. But your DH is doing this with good intentions. I'm thankful for not being BIC, but rather than upset over the matter, support the kids. The kids are blessed to have your support.

Also, may I ask about your personal experience in the church? Were you abused by leaders and authorities? You don't have to share the details here, I just want to understand you from your story in the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2017 06:25PM by canary21.

I would consult a family law attorney about your rights, your husband's rights, the children's rights, and their parents' rights. Once you know who is entitled to what, you can act accordingly.

I don't find your demands at all unreasonable under the circumstances. At a minimum, I would hold your ground.

I would like to know if the therapist can legally decide people have to attend a church to care for kids.

That does not sound right. I would consult an attorney.

I just hope the grandchildren will leave the church when they get older. mkgmt17's DH means well. DH's daughter should and is supposed to care about her children's welfare and outcome regardless. idk when mkgmt17's DH last spoke with his daugther, but they should talk.

And dagny, idt a therapist can legally decide that people have to attend a church to care for kids. The point is, it is mkgmt17's grandchildren and he is acting in their best interest. He is in a weak moment and wants to support and nourish his family. I think in the end, let it play out itself. So many people already see the church for what it is: a scam run by a bunch of loonies who wipe their bottoms with $100 bills in tithing money they defraud their members of.

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic. My husband is now being tested for possible dementia, my granddaughter has been diagnosed bipolar and is being evaluated for Dissociative Identity Disorder and my grandson is doing very well. We will be visiting my husband's family in a couple of weeks and the kids will see their mother.

I am deeply offended by those of you who think that you must be blood related to have any say in the rearing of children. I am more of a parent than my husband has been and if I had not been present and very active as a parent and advocate for these children, they would not be where they are now. I am in a much better place mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to make these decisions than their mother, father or grandfather are. I am truly here for the kids and willing to fight for their rights. I don't really care about their mother's rights since she lost them through the court when she severely neglected the kids and allowed them to be abused by her boyfriend and others. She has now walked out on her other two children. I am here for these kids.

I don't have anything against the church. I am just uncomfortable with some of their teachings and would like the kids to make their own choices. I don't want the kids to be pressured by the church or their peers to make life decisions. I have good friends who are Mormons and love them dearly.

Thank you for the information you all took time to give and I wish you all a wonderful day.

mkgmt17, I was not trying to offend you. What I am trying to say is, regardless of whether your stepdaughter's rights were terminated or not, no one can ever say she is not their mother. The love she has for her children are unrivaled. idk if you have children or not, but regardless of her severe abuse, mistakes and poor choices, she loves them. I wasn't trying to imply that blood relations has anything to do w/rearing your DH grandchildren. I am trying to say that I am sure she thinks about their best interests and maybe the LDS church is one of those things. And I'm sure that regardless of her position, she still wants to be play an integral part of their lives.

I'm not against you and I wasn't trying to offend you. I'm just talking about filial values here. It's important to address it. I know you are coming from the right place and I don't agree with everything the church teaches and I have Mormon friends I love very much, as well. I know their mom thinks about them and wants for them to be in a stable environment. It's traumatizing for her to lose custody and very disheartening. As I have said before, your support is invaluable, but looking from their mother's lenses, I believe firmly that she will do everything in her will and power to rectify everything and salvage the bond with her family.

I know she doesn't want to miss out. That is what I am trying to get across in a nutshell: she doesn't want to miss out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2017 01:11AM by canary21.

canary, you are so far off base as to be off of the field entirely.

The bio mom freely traded her "parent" card in for her greater love of her drugs of choice over any concern she may have felt for her "free welfare" babies. Do you have any idea how bad it has to get for such children for a bio mother to permanently lose custody?!

Male addicts coming and going, doing god knows what to the kids, them living and sleeping in filth, no regular meals or schooling, always being the "dirty" kid at school, not being properly educated or socialized, little, if any medical care, and that's all before the overt physical abuse happens.

Those kids must have been through hell with the bio mom, and for you to see her "rights" to abuse and neglect them as greater than the woman who has taken them in and has worked very hard to help them recover and build their own lives is YOUR issue, not the OP's. It must traumatize the kids just to see her - bring up all sorts of horrible memories and fears.

Birth does not a mother make. Not for many, not by a long shot.



OP, it sounds like your husband may think he needs TSCC to address his own weaknesses, but that doesn't mean that the kids "need" a community of a cult. There is a way to counter his "argument" that they "need" a church - take them to the most non-cult church you can find.

You and the kids might benefit from support from a far more balanced community. I don't go to any church, but have read some wonderful things on this board about the UU church, so much so that I even thought about going, BUT, the one closest to me is 20 miles away, and I have to make that drive every day for work, and don't want to add the weekends. And, I'm an atheist, so would have had to tolerate any "god" messages, having gone in knowing the score. I wouldn't exactly have been "bowing my head in prayer."

But, if you can tolerate it, you might investigate on your own before taking the kids, and ask their therapist about it. Just a thought.

It sounds like you are coping just fine without a church, so I only wanted to offer a way to counter your husband's claim that the kids "need" TSCC, to be around "good" people. WHO does he think YOU are, for chrissakes? It sounds like you have done wonders in helping them to find stable, productive and joyous paths. It even sounds like hubby can be more of a challenge than the kids.

Thanks for loving them, and please ignore those who are clueless about the "rights" of addicted bio parents, and what it entails to be a loving, supportive custodial parent to severely neglected and abused children.

Those kids deserve a mom, and it sounds like you're the one person in their lives who was willing to jump in and do what was needed to make sure that they had one.

My best to you and your family.

If Mormonism is the only degenerate crap your kids are exposed to, they'll be lucky. Kids can handle anything if they have a good support system. You can help them think critically about their church experiences and recognize indoctrination. Think of it as inoculation.

O.P. I totally disagree with the poster who says,she knows the mother loves the kids. You are the one doing the mothering. I don't have a whole lot of advice. I just wanted to say that the world is a better place because of people like you who step up to love and care for children who need love.. thank you for being wonderful xxx

The children's mother made bad decisions, for sure. But regardless of that, she never gave up being a parent. She's struggling from the consequences of her poor decisions.


For lack of a better phrasing this without being so blunt, you shouldn't impart your beliefs and values onto someone else's children. She does care about them and love them. Has your DH spoken with his daughter lately? How is she?

Nevermind. Your DH's daughter's actions aren't congruent with the love she has for her children. Her kids do have every right to be bitter and mistrustful towards her. I just hope that they will understand that they didn't do anything wrong and that there is nothing wrong with them that deserved to be mistreated and neglected. I hope they can forgive her. And I hope no one judges them because of the choices she has made.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2017 04:25PM by canary21.