Here's a question that I've been wondering the last little while that I would be interested to hear everone's views on: how many, if any, church leaders, from the local level all the way up to Monson, know it's not true? I know as I held many leadership positions in my ward, I had no idea. It would be crazy if Monson didn't know, but if he does why would he be promoting it? Is he getting money, or having social pressure? What about GA's? You would think if all 100+ of them knew, at least one of them would be decent enough to spill the beans. Or do all of them actually believe it? I want to hear your theories

Pretty sure the higher-ups would have to know, or at least be willfully ignorant.

Lower-ups: Some do and some don't. Most don't because many aren't the type to be curious, just motivated by feelings.

And some of them believe it when they're in highly charged emotional situations but not so much when they're doing routine daily tasks.

Others don't know, but support it because they think the structure and belief system is a positive force for members.

Just my take on the probabilities.

I've been out of the Church a long time, but I kinda think when you get to the top of the ranks, they are true believers. I'm not sure what else they're getting out of it, other than power.

I remember hearing Spencer W. Kimball speak at a youth conference, and I'd swear he was a true believer.

Money...lots of money, perks, and privileges.

I think there's probably a few that have figured it out but they cynically play along because they are benefiting from the system. Maybe a few others honestly desire to break free but are stuck due to the heavy costs (financial, social, psychological, etc) that would be incurred if they left.

But I think that the majority honestly believe this shit. I have seen/heard/known several of them. Either they are true believers or else they are the most gifted liars that I have ever known.

I think the GAs lie in the same way that I used to lie when I was a missionary. They don't do it consciously. They are simply trying to convince themselves at the same time that they are trying to convince others.

They are paid to believe it. That's why there's no retirement. Also, those at the top are highly vetted. They have to be a true believer to be called.

Watching GBH on "60 Minutes" had me wondering. And the way he underwent heroic last ditch cancer treatments at the age of 98. Maybe he knew there was going to be hell to pay.

Richard Packham has a piece on this very subject on his homepage. it was a real eye-opener for me and I recall thinking, "Aha!. Now I understand"! For anyone curious about this subject, as I was, it is a MUST READ.

packham.n4m.org

The preface to the BoM has been watered down twice about the Lamanites being the ancestors of the Native Americans. This was not a decision made by some 25 year old copy editor in a back office.

The Q15 had to have discussed and approved these changes. This means they have rejected the plain reading of the BoM that the Americas were empty except for the descendants of Lehi, and a few other minor groups, all of whom happened to also be Hebrew according to BoM account. They have accepted that the BoM did not literally happen.

They essentially never quote the BoA anymore. One of the so-called deep doctrines about race and the Pre-existence has been thrown under the bus. They are all old enough to remember when it was rock-solid doctrine, and the BoA was rock-solid scripture.

They have to know at some level, though their ability to compartmentalize is no doubt impressive. With Holland in particular, you can hear the cognitive dissonance in his voice.

Great points. I think these are practically smoking guns that show what things really are.

If they don't know, why are they witnesses to the NAME of Jesus Christ?

"With Holland in particular, you can hear the cognitive dissonance in his voice."

I agree. He seems like one that is constantly tormented by the truth, but he can't accept it...so he raves like a lunatic that it must be true:

"...tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? THEY WOULD NOT DO THAT!"

He knows that they were "imposters and charlatans". However, he can't explain them reading from their stupid book, so he clings to that. I think the unresolved dissonance is literally driving him mad. Maybe that's why he gave his conference talk on mental illness...'cause he recognizes it in himself.

We had a General Authority warn us not to research things on the internet. He said he was aware of information circulating on the internet that could make the Church look bad. But he had had a witness of the spirit and "frankly didn't care" what it said.

I think that's the kind of thinking and person who becomes a GA.

that's kinda what russian army generals said back in nineteen fourteen - they knew enough to know they did not need to learn about these new-fangled 'machine guns' and other 'modern' implements of warfare - they would stick to their trusty cavalry and infantry and their cannons like they always did. History records what happened as a result of their willful ignorance.

We can only speculate, but there were once known as "Special Witless's of JC" and now are "Special Witless's of the NAME of JC."

The former title denotes someone who has seen JC in person (that's what I was taught as a Mormon for 40 years). The latter title is used to back away from the belief that they have actually seen JC. As a Mormon, I was told the Q15 tire of sheepie constantly asking them about their visions of JC.

In the end, these asshats know for a surety that they have never seen JC or any other heavenly messenger. They KNOW that JS, the BOM, etc. is all hog wash. If they do not KNOW, they delude themselves.

I think they know it's not but they lose a lot in their minds if they admit it. They always seemed to be smarter than the rest of the sheep just making sure everyone stays in the herd. The controllers I call them.

Of course they know it's not what it claims to be.

They also know it's impossible and would be far too expensive for them to tell the real truth.

Hypocrites.

Of course! If it were revealed that they knew the church was false, they'd lose their penthouses...that the members paid for.

MMMeanwhile, some families are forced to starve in order for them to keep their penthouses, and for malls and skyscrapers to be built.
Ugh.

Clearly the 15 oldies are devoid of empathy. They extract money through extortion...Pay us or no TR and you can't see your child's wedding. Pay us before food and rent. Children save your pennies to serve a mission.

A temple marriage is all that matters so no need to see if you are compatible. You can't say no. You need to have 3 callings. You need to reproduce more Mormons.

These 15 guys are devoid of humanity. They don't care about the harm they cause. All they want is money, admiration, and to build their empire. They brainwash children with their distorted Mormon history, lies, whitewashing, omitions.

So I will say that the top 15 know it's a fraud, but they love the power and living in the matrix.

I don't think there are many top leaders or members who have had a "Faith Crisis" to the extent of thinking and or acknowledging it isn't true.

Most have a magical mythical/spiritual view and center on the good Christian aspect. And are brainwashed into believing this is the only way to have a happy life here and after. And don't even notice the cultish aspects.

Nowadays many active members I've spoken to acknowledge there are issues but rely on the "All will be revealed" adage.

I feel those at the top are still part the web of deceit we were all duped by.

There are some very powerful manipulative techniques at play. I think we should partly feel sorry for them. Although it is difficult when they say and uphold some nasty ideologies.

There are obviously a few things they know, i.e., they don't talk directly to God, they are not infallible, the church is run like a business.

But I think most of them believe in what they are doing and believe that even if they don't have it all right, according to God, it is a good thing for people. And it's kind of like the basic transitive law of equality that you first learn in Geometry 101. If A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C. "If I am PS&R (because I've been so sustained), and a PS&R receives revelation through their thoughts, then my thoughts are revelation."

So even though they have no more connection to SkyDaddy than you or me or a homeless guy on the street, and even though we all have thoughts and intuition and make decisions about what's right or wrong, their thoughts are superior and their thoughts are revelation. And I do think they absolutely believe that.

I think most of the 15 know it's not true. They may continually convince themselves it must be true, but they have to know deep down. They have to have given dozens of failed blessings by that point, gone years without "revelations", been exposed to many church doctrine/history problems, etc...

However, I think it would be extremely difficult to break free at that point. You'd have to admit to yourself that your entire life has been wasted. Your decades of service as a bishop, stake president, mission president, area authority, etc... was all for nothing. The hundreds of priesthood blessings you've given were all just make believe. The members that adore you and hang on your every word would crucify you (figuratively) if you spoke out. Your family would go from royalty to being compared to Thomas B. Marsh leaving over milk strippings, etc...

For most of us from TBM families, leaving can be hard. Family members might bad mouth you, threaten you, your spouse might divorce you, etc..., but it's still often easier when the cognitive dissonance is resolved by turning to truth. For the 15, they're risking a lot more. I don't think it's hard to see why they might break towards delusion to resolve the dissonance. Maybe on of them will eventually have the courage to break free once it clicks that they'll be viewed as villains by a few million mormons, but they'll gain the respect of millions more exmormons and non-members.

Of course, they do. They probably have to sign all sorts of NDA's when the church pays off their debts. They probably mask the business agreement by having one or more apostles show up to set them apart . I think their "blessing" includes explicit warnings to never indulge the sacred nature of the church transactions, protocols and dealings. They are probably warned not to fall into apostasy. This is their gravy train and they are not about to derail it.

These men who preside over the Mormon empire have one goal; to prop up and maintain the one true church naritive. Their motto is, this is our story and were sticking to it, to hell with and evidence to the contrary. There is too much invested to let a silly thing like the truth destroy it.

Thomas S. Monson said "My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it." There is a collective agreement NOT tolook behind the curtain any more than they have to.

William Law hit the nail on the head with "willfully ignorant".

Carl Sagan sais it nicely;

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” Carl Sagan

This question/thread comes up often; Does it appear Scheduled or Spontaneously?

It's part of the auto-post feature that admins have. The rest of the rotation of regularly scheduled threads are:
NDEs
Did Jesus exist?
The closing of xxxxxx store proves City Center Mall is about to fold.
Why materialist physicists will never understand our delusional worldview
Question for atheists only
Question for believers only
poopstone's disfavored group of the day.
ziller exploring the minimum number of working neurons needed to write a post. It is a kind of zen literary limbo.
Adventures of one of Amyjo's 8,000 relatives. :)

Now THAT is funny!

My opinion on the matter, FWIW:


The Top 15 Quack-O's HAVE to know it is a for-profit, money making CORPORATION, not a church.


And part of knowing LD$,Inc is a for-profit, money making entity would be knowing that the "churchy" part of it is false.


The corporation's original money making scheme involved masking as a church, and collecting all the tithes and donations.


And that still serves as a great marketing ploy - how else do you get people to donate 10% of their gross earnings, plus do all kinds of free labor -- not to mention all the tax evading benefits of being a "church" ?


Yes, I believe the top Quack-Os not only fully understand all of this, but were specifically chosen because they knew how to operate a functional business model as unique as this one. At the time of their original choosing, they were all chosen to contribute something specific to the for profit corporation that masks as a church.


Of course, their business related skills were not enough -- they had to be good actors, too. Be able to cry on cue, give their "heart felt" testimony on cue...



Alot of the folks who immediately surround the top Quack-O's probably know, too, though they may not have known the truth when they were originally hired.

I would imagine many a top Quack-O's assistant ends up resigning their job or getting fired, because they couldn't handle the truth when they finally figure it out.


And I believe that most of the TOP echelon at the COB know.


Lower than that, it is anybody's guess.


I think some figure it out, walk away, and end up in places like here at RfM.


Others stay in, for family or job related reasons, or because they just don't know where else to go.


Then there is a large group of folks who just accept everything they are told blindly, and continue to pay, pay, obey, and pay more...


My guess would be that at the Stake Presidency and Bishopric levels, you have a bunch of men who have figured it out, but for assorted reasons, are going to continue running their local church groups instead of walking away.

But I also figure that at least an equal amount of the men at that level still drink in all the kool aid. After all, they are "inspired," ya know...



That's my opinion, FWIW

GNPE wrote:
"This question/thread comes up often; Does it appear Scheduled or spontaneously?"

It is a good question and appropriate for this forum. Also, there are always new people lurking in here who may benefit.

Someone up thread mentioned Richard Packhams insights on this topic are well worth reading. I second that and would post the link but am not sure where to find it. Maybe Richard if he is around will do so.

I think most of them figure it out. I'd bet on Oaks, Eyring, Holland as knowing their claims are not precisely accurate. I think Uchtdorf has become much more nuanced and likely knows.

The most recent batch of apsotles like Bednar, Christofferson and such seem so cold and calculating that they could be pure believers or pure hypocrites and never tell the difference.

I know one 1stQ70 who most certainly knows it's a fake.

I'm curious now, how do you know? Are they a friend?

"Do the Mormon leaders know that their church is false?"  


http://packham.n4m.org/know.htm

One thing that I find almost sinister is the mixing of "money and membership"--when speaking of tithing, TBM's are taught from a young age that money (in fact *everything*) belongs to God, and He's such a great guy that He only asks for 10% of it back.

Mormonism, more than most religions, extends that concept to the LDS church being *God's Only True Church On Earth*, so the church leaders keep harping on the organization--not Jesus (even when they *do* mention Jesus, they imply he was a mormon)--so it doesn't matter if it's true or not...you BELONG TO THE CORPORATION, AND EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BELONGS TO IT, SO PAY UP!

I don't doubt it. Take Gordon B. Hinckley for example. He was a GA before the Priesthood "Ban," an Apostle when "revelation" was received to lift the "ban."
And yet in quite a few Priesthood videos, he pretends to not know why the ban had taken place.

I wonder how the leaders dlfind out about the church's. You have to find out somehow.
We all did in some way.

NPR had an article yesterday that explained why many people will believe information about things they want to hold as true, despite possibly overwhelming evidence that those claims are false. Therein may lie the answer to this, and to all the things in a similar vein that we discuss here on RfM. Despite solid proof, for instance, that Barrack Obama is a U.S.-born Christian, there are certain people who want to believe that he is a foreign-born Muslim, and will continue to believe that simply because they want to hold to that belief. In some cases, increasing evidence only causes people to believe the untrue claim even more.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that these guys know they aren't what the perpetuate to be.

They also know very well that there are plenty of members who really believe it all, and think that they literally speak to Jesus.

To 'The Bretheren' if that is what keeps them obedient...so be it..they'll play along.

Like the CEO's of any corporation, they know their product isn't the only one out there. They also know that it may not even be the best product of it's kind out there.

No matter. They've been hired to sell this particular product. Their job is to convince people to buy in and stay loyal to the brand. Since they've signed on to a corp. that has a no retirement clause, they must also stay loyal to the brand no matter what. The only way out is death.

Top leaders act like the church isn't true. I was talking about this with Grant Palmer and he met with a GA and his wife and neither one of them believe the LD$ church is true. When the GA is around leaders of LD$ Inc. doing church work and all, they don't behave as if it's true. They're talking about other non-church things like basketball. If anything, they're acting like puppets and keeping the scam going for their financial benefit.

A member of the quorum of seventy visited my singles ward 20 years ago because his son was a member. He spoke in elders' quorum. I'm confident from what he chose to not talk about (e.g. the scriptures) that he didn't believe.

Whether the big 15 know it isn't true or not, one thing is clear: they have no confidence in their own ability to get a revelation from God. I base this on the fact that they never tell anyone about any significant revelations, unlike church leaders of yore. There are plenty of issues facing the church right now that could be resolved with a revelation, but instead we get "policies" planted in handbooks not available to the general membership, and no GA ever takes credit for having received these by revelation. The church members, raised from childhood to think that the church is led by men who talk to God like Moses did, are thirsty for revelation, but instead they get a trickle of banalities from the church leadership who are unable or unwilling to produce anything else. This inability to receive revelation must produce a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in the minds of the apostles.

The GA's appear to have a few different ways to rationalize their own inability to receive revelation, such as the belief that God supports their positions based on the authority they have in the priesthood, whether or not he revealed that position to them explicitly. In that respect, they are reinventing the wheel, since the Catholic authorities took that approach centuries ago. It suggests a certain amount of belief, however; if they were completely cynical they wouldn't bother to rationalize anything.

It is so bizarre and ironic that the Church constantly talks about its prophets, seers, and revelators yet there hasn't been one revelation since 1978 - allowing Blacks the priesthood.

Even an 8 year old knows that this policy was racist and wrong.

The whole planet knows the revelation was a result of political pressure.

Next year will mark the 40th anniversary of this long over due colossal capitulation.

The Lord's anointed has been lost in the wilderness the past 40 years.

Hrm...I wonder if they'll do something or give a conference talk to commemorate that "event."
Or if they'll treat it as dirt swept under the rug...
We know how they handled their own essays...

Paul H. Dunn was a chronic, compulsive liar. He must've known it wasn't true, and was a very high ranking GA until he died.

He knew how to work the system, and that's why he was as successful as he was (and a much beloved figure,) up until his "fall from grace," when the SHTF.

Isn't it true that the majority of the Top 15 and other GA's are related to Joseph Smith or BY? If so, the cult is really a family business masked as a church.

Even if they know it's not true, would they come out of the closet and confess their scam? Why? So they could go to prison and be sued by everyone. Instead they stay, keep the scam going and get paid very well.

It's true God Myth. That's how I put it. It is a belief system accepted by faith that is metaphysical and visionary. That is how religion works best.
It's not just a well organized church. It's a generational, predominately American culture.