QUICK STORY: My wife invited the Ward Missionary couple to come by,
they asked if I would be willing to do the discussions.
I said yes to make my wife happy, they will be back next week for #2 (appropriately named )
The couple is both converts, He from nonreligious family. her from a catholic family(like me).
Both my parents recently died so I think my wife thinks the timing is perfect.
I was wondering if I should ask if they would like to watch a youtube video?
Even though I'm a atheist (and my dad also, he admitted before his death) I think might be powerful to them being it comes from a former LDS view.....
BTW I posted something similar also a couple of years ago and got kinda slammed on this board for being a Christian claiming to be Atheist which is not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl0c5nl6u48

Howdy, there's nothing wrong with listening and talking with the missionaries. I'm sure you're making two TBMs very happy. I doubt that arguing with the missionaries would be helpful for you or your marriage. So, I'd listen and make a few comments. And, you probably know, they'll ask you to be baptized in the next lesson or so.

Perhaps the discussions might provide some prompts for you to talk with your wife about what you believe or not believe. That's your call. But, she'll probably be very hopeful that you'll come around and join.

Very best wishes, the Boner.

You nailed it.
Actually she knows I'm a nonbeliever, but she prayed about it and God said we should be together, and someday I'd come around.
That's why I need to do the discussions and read the BOM cover to cover......which we almost did a few years (now its been to long so we'll need to start over) it was tough to think people actually believe such nonsense.

I, of course, was one of them :). Mormonism appealed to me because it made me feel special and chosen. Right after I joined, I quickly began to feel unworthy due to my tendency to self pleasure. The Morg added guilt, which can be very effective in a cult. You don't have the issues that I had way back then, so the teachings will probably appear comical.

I'm hope you'll post an update! Just don't let anyone here give you any shit.

It could happen. You never know when your doctor is going to order a frontal lobotomy.

That's time that you will never get back.

I don't know why you would want anything to do with that dumb video if you really don't believe in that stuff.

Your wife clearly thinks you are in a spot for conversion. You are setting her up for bigger disappointment possibly by egging this on.

There's no accounting for how different families handle things!

If the missionaries were previously nonreligious and Catholic, I don't understand why that video would appeal to them. They are just going to think you are one of the Praise Jeeeesus types. I can't tell if the target is really your wife or them.

Look. The truth about the Mormon church is everywhere, just a click away for anyone who wants to know.

The reason I think the video might resonate is it shows people that are not what they are told of the usual people who left the church..... just wanted to sin, lazy, etc.....
these kids went on a mission, I think they would find it hard to believe they could be the one's converted.
Isn't this board filled with "aha" moments that turned them to be rational?????
Sorry even as a atheist I don't find the video dumb.

I feel that discussions are a bad idea unless you plan to be baptized. You already know it's a bunch of hooey. The truth will come out eventually then your wife will be mad at you and not trust you for not being truthful. This is no little thing.

It just seems to me it should be easy to convince someone that people have been around longer then 7000 years (which the mish said)! How can anyone not believe that people have been around longer, how about the neanderthals for example?

Don't be so convinced someone can reject the 7000 year old earth. I play in 2 groups with an individual who is an excellent clarinet player. He retired from a fortune 100 company as a senior exec. We have become friends over the past few years. We go out for breakfast once per week before our clarinet trio practices. He is a strong Christian but does not wear it on his sleeve. He has no objections when we go out for dinner and my wife and I order wine.

At a recent breakfast he commented to me he believes in the bible literally. He believes in a 6000 year old earth. This is a highly educated world traveler. We don't get into religious discussions other than that one morning.

"Both my parents recently died so I think my wife thinks the timing is perfect."

I'm sure your wife is a lovely, sweet person, but it's still kind of underhanded to take advantage like this, to try and reel you in when she thinks you're vulnerable.

Now that you're taking the discussions and reading the BOM "to make your wife happy," I really hope there's a line somewhere in all that sand. Otherwise…

…you'll be getting baptized "to make your wife happy."

Then…

…you'll be attending 3 hours each Sunday "to make your wife happy."

…you'll be filling church callings "to make your wife happy."

…you'll be paying tithing "to make your wife happy."

…you'll be scrubbing church toilets "to make your wife happy."

…you'll be going to the temple "to make your wife happy."

Eventually…

…you'll be going on a senior mission together "to make your wife happy."

And all that time, *you* will be very, very unhappy.

Truth.

Spot on!!!
Just remember, as your time on earth winds down, you won't get any time back for perpetuating Joseph Smith's fictional musings.

might log in later: really well put

It disturbs me to think that someone is happy about indoctrination.

My personal opinion is that you should quit giving your wife reason to hope that you will convert. This has nothing to do with making your spouse happy. It has everything to do with her showing you basic respect.

..exactly..

Agreed

"...I said yes to make my wife happy, they will be back next week for #2...
...Both my parents recently died so I think my wife thinks thinks the timing is perfect."

Uh...you may want to seriously re-examine your relationship w/your wife..

She is manipulating you and taking advantage of you because you are at a weak/low point with both of your parents passing away recently.

If mormonism is truly for you and spiritually enriches you, more power to you. I wish you well..

BUT...since you posted here, I am a thinking that you do not feel that way.


You have some serious thinking/soul-searching to do..

Good luck

In 1 year your wife will probably want to do baptisms for the dead for your parents. I am writing this to give you a heads up on what is probably about to come.

Go ahead and listen to the discussions if you think it will help your relationship with your wife. There are a lot of on-line resources if you want to have a respectful discussion. Richard Packham has a good article on what the missionaries don't tell you. Ed Bliss wrote a book about how to respond to the missionary discussions.

Meanwhile, head off potential religious conflict in your marriage by concentrating on building on what you have in common. Court your wife, bring her flowers, plan fun family activities, don't object to her attending church but have a clean house and a nice meal waiting for her, etc.

Your wife is feeling "less than". She sits alone in church and looks around at the women married to worthy PH men and feels like she is missing the LDS ideal. It is even a possibility that she is being counseled to divorce you and marry a worthy PH man who can get her into heaven.

My athiest son listened to the missionary discussions at the request of his (now ex) girlfriend. He even slogged through reading the BoM. The mishies and the girlfriend were astounded when he maintained his position of non-belief as they had prayed about it and were certain he would convert. It was a real WTF moment for them and hopefully planted some seeds.

Good luck.

From my limited experience, two things to watch out for.

1. The slippery slope. Knowing you don't recognize the efficacy of prayer, they will ask you to pray and/or to ask someone else to pray. Acquiescing when they request you to do things you don't believe in puts them in a position of authority and takes away confidence in your own judgement. It will also diminish you in your wife's eyes. As "might log in later" said, you can ruin your life, beginning with small things. Active Mormons do not respect you or your beliefs and are not acting in your best interests. With the best of intentions, of course!

2. When you try Moroni's promise and it doesn't work, or when you don't feel the Holy Ghost in what they say, they will say it is your fault. Along the way, they will want you to fast and pray. I'm here to tell you that if you fast and pray for two days, you will be hearing voices and possibly seeing visions. Missionaries are trained to put you in a lose-lose situation, damned if you do and damned if you don't. In the beginning, you might ask them if it is possible for a well intentioned person to test Moroni's promise and fail to receive confirmation. Their answer, or non-answer, will show how much respect they have for you.

Good luck. Beginning discussions with the missionaries is just as dangerous as beginning auditing sessions with the Scientologists.

Why do you call it "discussions" ?
Are you discussing things with them ?

Honesty is the best policy. Tell your wife you love her. Tell the missionaries to get lost. Live long and prosper!

Maybe the discussions are doing you.

I'm with Dave the Athiest: what's to discuss? It's not like "discussing" whether or not to execute a prisoner, it's like discussing the method of killing him.

My first thought was: listen and nod for while, reeling them in to your feigned interest, then, after they've painted themselves into a corner, hit them with a series of questions where you note "But earlier you said that..." and point out some of the major contradictions in doctrine or history. They will hem and haw blubber and gurgle and retreat to their testimony.

And you'll get no sex for a month.

Don't be so easily swayed and don't fuss around with cat and mouse games, pretending you're interested if you're not.

Since you've already agreed to the discussions (while emotionally vulnerable) to please a spouse willing to use the death of your father to manipulate you, were it me, I would go straight to something like the CES letter.

Hold it in your unclean, gentile hands, read a few of the questions aloud, then say:

"You have no real authority over anyone, boys (or gentlemen). It's like rock *wink*, paper, scissors. Meat is stronger than milk, milk is stronger than priesthood, and priesthood is stronger than nothing. Thanks for stopping by."

This should put an end to your spouses's false hope of changing you, and any additional, amoral high-pressure sales tactics from either her or her cult's minions.

After they leave, and the crying and/or cold shoulder and/or yelling begins, calmly present her with "her" resignation letter to LDS, and say,

"I have never done this to you, and I expect the same level of respect for my beliefs. I consider the timing of this assault as an insult to my intellect, and the respect and tolerance I've shown for your beliefs. The faith that you have violated is my faith in you."

Some will say that this is a horrible idea. I say, be you; be authentic. Freedom is worthy of defense. You can drag it out or nip it in the bud.


There is no need to waste your life "studying" the BoM to counter a crazy cult. The CES letter is like the Cliff notes version of earlier works from which parts of it may have been constructed.

For a healthier approach (than mine) to your marital issues, see (and home page of):

http://packham.n4m.org/spouse.htm

The choices are yours, and I wish you the best.

The Wilder family and others in the video seemed to be balanced people living productive lives. These type of people function well whether in or out of the church.

Church members often mistakenly attribute their success and good fortune to their membership and participation in the one so called true church.

So long as they continue to drink the cool-aid and follow the party line they are eventually promoted into leadership positions which tends to further solidify their perception of elect status in gods one true church.

Why question your beliefs when all is rolling along smoothly. Additionally, the spiritual rock star leaders who all seem to exemplify success have conditioned you not to question the ‘one true church’ claims?

Ms. Wilder in the video at one point said "I wasn't seeking the truth because I thought I had it."

One of the young men said something to the effect "I just accepted it as true and never gave it a second thought."

I (and perhaps some others of us here) on the other hand, have been more open to questioning things because those things never came easy. I never was one of those balanced and well rounded people destined for relatively easy success. Everything was a challenge from my earliest years. I struggled with a learning disability and didn't always play well in the sand box.

I have come a long way and have accomplished some things in my life to be proud of but there has been a lot of struggle and hardship. After many years of living the commandments, a mission, temple marriage, attendance every Sunday (even though it was difficult), paying a full tithe and faithfully serving in all callings I began to wonder when the windows of heaven would be opened to me and pour out blessings. At some point along the road I began to became disillusioned and allowed myself to question. That's when it all quickly fell apart.

Sorry for digressing as this thread isn’t about me but I wanted to share my thoughts here. As far as taking the lessons, I would be cautious not to give your wife any false hope nor would I try to enlighten her or take away her joy in her beliefs. My wife is staunch tbm and I would not want to be the one to take that away from her as she finds so much enjoyment in her involvement in the church. If she comes to understand the falsehood of the church on her own I would be elated though. Like wise I expect her to honor the 11th article of faith and let me believe as I do. It seems to work for us.

The church is true enough until it isn't. Then its true colors show.

You have my condolences.

Just say no.

Tell her that she needs to be patient. After you're dead, she can bury your body in temple clothes, or cremate you, get you baptized, get the two of you married in the temple, pay all your savings to the cult, rewrite her Will to include the Mormon church, marry a Mormon, spend the rest of her life going on missions--whatever she wants. The cult will get you in the end.

While you are alive, you have a right to your own beliefs. I think your wife's manipulations are disrespectful to you and to the memory of your parents. Don't blame you wife, because she is merely following the orders of the cult.

Don't waste your time being phony with your wife. Do something you both enjoy together--and do it often.

My husband talked freely with me, when he found out Mormonism was a fraud. What he said made me angry, but it did make me think, and our children and I resigned, about a year later. Actually, I admired his integrity. He would not cave in to the Mormon threats and shunning. He would not give in to his TBM mother's tears. He told us from the beginning that he was never going to another Mormon meeting, and was not going to give them one more dime.

He told me that he wouldn't interfere with my going to church and taking the children with me. In return, we agreed to not let religion become an issue in our marriage. He made Sundays and weekends so much fun for us, that it was one of the best times of our lives.

We had the choice of spending Sunday mornings with Daddy at the beach or in our back yard--or being cooped up for 3 hours of boring nonsense. That's almost a no-brainer decision (if everyone is honest about things).

What I'm saying is--you and your wife deserve MORE! Give your wife more than just pointless "discussions" and dreary re-reading of fake scriptures. You can give her what the cult can never give her--unconditional love, appreciation, self esteem, real companionship, laughter, happiness! She will choose you!

i would pretend to be studying the rosetta stone and ask why the facsimilies dont match with what we know the translations to be.

Tell them you'll happily join the LDS church if they can answer all the questions posed by the CES Letter. Without specific and meaningful answers to those questions, nobody in their right mind would join.

http://cesletter.com/Letter-to-a-CES-Director.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2017 12:58PM by cludgie.

Leading?


Or


Following?


Unless leading...
Its not a discussion.

Its a preaching (of false and fictitious stories, superstitions,
lies and fabrications).

A DISCUSSION implies getting somewhere.

M@t

I remember my ex-wife asking me to hear the discussions to which I declined. At one point I told her I'd get married in the Temple but would not change my lifestyle. If and only if you get off my back. She never really pushed again but tried to go through the temple by herself. There is a phrase for that but I can't remember. The church wanted me to sign a letter allowing her to go through the temple ceremony. I asked my wife , don't you find it odd that a non member has to give permission for a TBM?

She didn't go through the temple and pretty much left me alone when it came to the mormon religion after that.

I'd have fun with this.

Especially when you ask how to get in on some polygamy - lots of hot babes, as promised in the Doctrine and Covenants.

And always remember - marriage is a joke. Your wife is married first to the church, then to your wallet. She needs you for her image at church. If you can understand this, you won't be surprised and angry when she pulls crap like this on you.

Therapy 101: It is not your job to make your wife happy. That is your wife's job. She is the only one who can make her happy.

If your wife is unhappy there is only one person she can go too...herself to find happiness.

Your wife is a member of a cult. When I was in the cult my nevmo wife showed me what unconditional love really was and that made a big difference.

It seems pointless to argue about bible-verses because it is like using fairytales to combat logic.

In general, mormons are not good people. They lie, manipulate, are opportunistic, and highly passive-aggressive. You don't believe me? Every active mormon male lies to their bishop every year saying they don't look at porn and/or masturbate. Mormons feel they are entitled to more than non-believers because god is supposed to reward them. The cult creates a culture of saying one thing but doing another. It is unhealthy.

Your best shot (to me at least) is to crack your wife out of the cult. Watch the Leah Remini series on Scientology with your wife. This is what early Mormonism looked like AND much of mormonism today still matches this. One cult is not worse than the other. Please give it a try.

Good luck.

The guys in that video! OMG. White guys with no rhythm whatsoever. Hilarious.

HatMagic here.
I have agreed to take one of the church's self reliance classes; Finance. It is barely about finance and mostly gospel doctrine. The course has many commitments that each class member is suppose to accept. My point is you will be asked to commit to do Mormon things in the discussions. Those commitments are structured much like a pyramid get-rich-quick sales pitch. You might be tempted to accept commitments to make the wife happy, but that could cause more trouble for you when you renege on some of them. Anyway, just be cautious.

Ask the mishies,

"Whats the point of getting baptized in this life if everyone including murderers (Hitler) and past mormon fall guys who participated in the mountain meadows massacre can get baptized after death why not you? Why not be a good guy in this life and let family have the 'privilege' of doing your work after you pass? Everyone wins!

Say "This is the route I choose." Discussion over.