Seriously, I dare you.

How does your particular bent on his nonsensical story make sense to you? How do you try to get around the almost unlimited holes and internal inconsistencies?

What insight do you have to clarify the story that people need some guy/god/story to get nailed to a tree in order to save you from some mystical force?

I won't judge you. I believed it. I know what it feels like. I was just waiting for it to make sense until I realized it just doesn't.

When people explain an "experience" that they attribute to Jesus, my question is how they know it was Jesus. People in other parts of the world have similar experiences and attribute it to whatever belief/god they have in their culture. They have the same type of evidence (basically, just personal experience they can't deny or something similar).

It is predictable that people fit experiences to their world view, which in turn convinces them further that their bias is correct.

It is very uncomfortable to back up and start with "I know nothing" and then judge by facts rather than anecdotes or personal perception.

I think Jesus provides comfort to many. It's a nice feeling to know someone has a plan, you get to live forever and everything will be wonderful in the end. We love happy fairy tales as adults just as we did as children.

Jesus is god
Who sacrificed himself
To himself
To appease himself

I just can't understand why he just desperately, codependently, obsessively, stakerishly, needs me to *believe* in him or he'll sacrifice me too.

He can play with himself all he wants. Leave me out of it.

Dont believe Christ was divine, but if I did I wouldnt feel the need to explain it to others on the board and I wouldnt ask them to defend their world view. I have found that questions like this are usually asked by people who think their views are superior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 10:08PM by bona dea.

Sure, because they couldn't *possibly* be trying to get other people to simply think things through, or examine their beliefs, or anything. No, it MUST be an assertion of superiority. That's the only possible answer.

Not.

right justified or left justified?

Sorry, but the only 'personal experiences' I have had concerning Christ indicate he was a 'mortal' not a 'god' and the bible does not reflect his life, death and teachings accurately.

Further, if he taught resurrection, which I personally doubt, ----- he was wrong!

If you cover up your eyes, plug your ears, and numb your brain to never question, why then your comforting fairy tale can always remain intact. Jesus is justified.

I think most people have been conned by their culture into thinking they have only 2 choices - Christianity or atheism.

If self-preservation is a strong drive, a person may be able to overlook the irrationality of the Christian story if they think it offers them their only chance of a life after death.

Me, I don’t have this problem anymore. Not since I have read enough evidence to convince me reincarnation exists.

I do not believe that Jesus was divine, but I understand why some people do. It's a compelling story. I personally believe that he was enlightened in the same way that the Buddha was enlightened -- meaning that he broke through to a higher level of understanding. If some people think of that as being touched by God, or of having God within you, so be it.

I like his teachings. I like how his teachings encourage many people to be kind, charitable, and to work for social justice.

but then I began to doubt, and we all know where that leads one.

I don't ask people to justify their beliefs. I ask them, sometimes, how they were able to turn the "doubt switch" to "off."

Was it too frightening, seemingly too stark? Did they fear a lack of social support, boredom, nothing to do on a Sunday, a lack of ready soup-bowls to be filled? Was it that if there is no god, for them that would preclude an afterlife?

A recent thread attempted to "justify christianity" by basically stating that most of the literal behavioral demands of scripture were ignored, and that one could behave and believe whatever one wishes within the "confines" of a given church. I didn't want to rain on their parade, but, 'SCUSE me.

How is that different than atheism?

As described in that thread, each person invents his own "rules" for what comprises "god," and what that god demands of him. Then a bunch of like-minded folk get together and sing the same songs with a silent, tacit approval that how much or how little one adheres to a given tenet of that faith is a "private" matter.

That IS atheism.

It is a refusal to believe in anyone else's god, even though each member's god has only one thing that must be agreed upon: the name, whatever that may be in any given meeting house. As long as the accepted god-name is used, an uncommon god is "our" god, too.

If they truly believed in one supreme being who could strike them dead and fling them into an eternal fire, because what was the purpose of the human sacrifice if not to avoid the flames, it seems that there would be great interest in abiding by the letter of the law. They would beg to know what that law was, and the warm fuzzies brought about by agreeing to disagree in silence would not suffice.

It's JUST LIKE mormonism. It's either ALL TRUE, or a bunch of baloney.

I don't understand how they can overlook that. I also consider them to be, in their quaint ignorance of "the rules," people of low enough moral compunction as to be willing to follow "wolves in sheeps' clothing" for the sake of personal comfort. In other words, they support people and institutions willing to compromise and exchange "the silver" for the very "Word" they purport "worship."

Makes very little sense to me, and I would like to understand.

btw, I'm not saying that christians can't behave morally in other areas if their lives, but in what they might often claim as their "moral foundation," their faith, is a sandy and ever-shifting moral conundrum. Their "gods" exist only in each person's head, but they refuse to say it straight and honestly, just like that. They must profess a common supreme being, then deny him, even in their worship houses.


A question I rarely bring up is, WWJD, because nowhere can I find the command to "act like a god," from Jesus, in the scriptures. He is said to have acted god-like in many of the things that nailed him, but it's hard to ignore that sermon on the mount. It's the "do as I say, not as I do" part of scriptures. If I see a group supporting "WWJD," I know I am looking at the ultimate wolves of the silver, and the most ignorant of sheep. They can't even read the very simple intructions of the book they claim to "love."

I have zero interest in trying to communicate with them, and a couple of them hang out here.

Well stated.

A lot of people in my part of the USA believe in hell or an eternal punishment. Seriously.


They say Jesus is love and moral.

Right. He loves you, but if you don't love him back, he'll punish you- forever. This is scary love and certainly not moral.

Never mind the concept of god-blood sacrifice which is beyond ridiculous. Jesus sounds almost as psychotic as the Old Testament god.


I guess it's true that the more outrageous the claim, the more people believe it.

People not only justify this savior concept, they defend and perpetuate it. They are invested in this world view and have built their perception of everything around it. We have heard various justifications which mostly boil down to faith, associating experiences with preconceived conclusions, and wanting it to be true.

It's what humans do and have done over and over. It is the crazy glue that forms cultures.

And the Fundies are no more representative of all Christians than Mormons are.

The fundies are the true christians.

Come on Donald. You know Jesus can't compare to you when it comes to crowd size and his groupies spread fake news. Besides, he's not rich. Not even Big League.

>>It's JUST LIKE mormonism. It's either ALL TRUE, or a bunch of baloney.

The point of my thread is that religion is a different experience for Christians on the moderate to liberal end of the spectrum. They often approach their religious beliefs and participation in a different way than Mormons do. Everything is NOT black-and-white, true or false for them.

It is apparent that you are still seeing religion from a Mormon point of view.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It is apparent that you are still seeing religion
> from a Mormon point of view.

There's the "recovery" point right there.

Freeing ourselves from LDSinc is an opportunity to evaluate other cultures (and their attending religious backgrounds) from multiple points of view. This frees us from the all-or-nothing, black & white, correct or incorrect either/or literalism that confined us as Mormons.

Human Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Freeing ourselves from LDSinc is an opportunity to
> evaluate other cultures (and their attending
> religious backgrounds) from multiple points of
> view. This frees us from the all-or-nothing, black
> & white, correct or incorrect either/or literalism
> that confined us as Mormons.


That was a truly "aha" moment for me. Spent years in the "If Mormonism is a sham and it's the only true religion, what's the point of even listening to anything else?"

Then I realized if Mormonism isn't true, maybe its claim to be the only true religion is bunk also.

Jesus was a man who lived in first century Jerusalem. He attracted a group of followers who found his message to be very compelling. He was a threat to many of the religious leaders of the day and was ultimately crucified.

His followers claim that he rose from the dead shortly after he was buried, and they came to believe that his death served as a sacrifice for their sins against God. They believed then the same as many of his followers today: If you believe there is a penalty for sins against God and trust that Jesus paid your personal penalty, you'll be freed from its effects.

Several decades after his death, writings by his followers began to appear that detailed some of the events of his life and documented the growth of the church that formed around him. Within about 300 years, a number of these were collected into what became known as the New Testament.

You, of course, know what I'm talking about: Your invitation to a Jesus-Saving RfM tent revival (and I quote):

“Jesus always stands ready with a welcome embrace, but you won't see it or benefit from it until you turn in his direction."

And this:

"If you come to believe in God, you can grapple with the source of his power. . . . I'm just asking for a bit more honestly and less propaganda in our science."

(SOURCE: http://exmormon.org/phoru /read.php?2,1923001,1925230#msg-1925230; and http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1956550,1956706#msg-1956706)


As you well know, calling RfMers to repentance via an under-the-big-top Jesus altar call is in violation of this board's stated guidelines:

“Please--no preaching!! This is not a forum to convert others to another faith. The focus here is on recovery.”

(http://exmormon.org/bb/guidelines.html)


If you have now repented of breaking the rules in this regard, give yourself a big "Hallelujah!"



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2017 02:18AM by steve benson.

Ignoring all your baked-in ideas littered throughout your question, allow me this:

But God's own descent
Into flesh was meant
As a demonstration
that the supreme merit
Lay in risking spirit
In substantiation.

--Robert Frost--
--"Kitty Hawk"--

Do that and Christ is justified.

Cheers,

Human

Cheers to hard facts,

Darwin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2017 02:22AM by steve benson.

Here goes.

Look at Jesus fasting 40 days then being temped of Satan on a mountain.

Satan wanted Jesus to bow down and worship him, a Satan would give him the worldly things.

So Satan wants to exalt himself and his heart is on wildly possessions.

Jesus said, whoever exalts himself will be abased, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The path upward is through humility. The path downward is through self exalting.

Heaven is the greatest destination ever. I have felt what it might be like there and nothing on earth can compare. You could be the richest, most famous human ever with a posse of a thousand women, and it would pale in comparison to one day in heaven.

All positive emotions burn inside you. There is no room for jealosy, greed, envy...

If Jesus came in his glory, we couldn't stand to be in his presence. Our consciences would probably drive us crazy

This world is the battle of love vs ego. Jesus vs Satan. And you have the right to choose.

So that's what it's all about - wallowing in overwhelming hedonism for eternity.  And doing what with yourself all day?

ln the meantime back on earth people are breeding their way to starvation, tyrants continue to rule by brutality, and polution continues to destroy the atmosphere, soil, and water.  And of course you have absolutely no responsibility to come back and do anything about it.

Sounds a lot like a drug addiction to me.
No thanks. I won't be going to heaven.  I am too moral for that.

I never could, even when I claimed to be (and really thought I was) a Christian. Just too much that did not add up. I remember one time when I was about 10 or 11, my dad let a couple of Mormon missionaries into the house, and they were telling us these things about Mormonism, and reading various things from the BOM, etc. etc., and I'm thinking to myself, "Do these people honestly BELIEVE this crap?" And later, I asked myself how they could believe something so silly, which led me to the inevitable--but really, are the things they believe any sillier than the things in the Bible that you believe? Or that the Methodists and other Christians believe? Answer: no. It's ALL silly. Angels impregnating human women. Adam and Eve populating the earth when there were only 2 of them and they had 2 sons. If Jesus raised Lazarus from "the dead," what happened to Lazarus after that? Is he still alive or did he live a normal life and eventually die anyway? Why do two of the four gospels not even MENTION the birth of Jesus (in a stable, of a virgin? And speaking of the angel and virgin story, why does the bible trace the lineage of Jesus back though the history of Joseph? Unless Joseph was really his biological father?) Then I read the bible, the whole way through, some time later, and realized that none of it was true. It was all written by men who were products of their time--and by the time you get to Revelation, you wonder what he was smoking or eating! Weed? Mushroooms? Wowza! Was there even ever a historical "Jesus" at all? Maybe. Maybe not. If so, my guess is he was a typical Jewish rabbi who was a little ahead of his time on some social issues of the day, and had people who believed many of the things he said and decided to make a "savior" of him. He was probably married, or perhaps gay--IF he existed at all. So eventually, I used my brain, put 2 and 2 together and did NOT come up with 5. Christian to atheist, kind of overnight, but not really---it had been simmering in my brain since I was a kid. Is there an afterlife? Maybe--maybe not. If so, it is more likely to be like a "university" with a chance to go on to "grad school," i.e., come back and give it another shot. I don't think I would want to do that. Too tough. The joys don't equal the hardships and the tears--at least for me. Your mileage may vary. (And it's possible there is no choice. Eek!) It's also possible that there is no afterlife at all, and that's okay with me, too. If you don't exist in any form at all, you don't "miss" life or people, or anything else. Heaven makes very little sense, and hell even less. So, although I now have cancer, and can see the end of the tunnel, which is darkish, that's cool. It will be okay, no matter what happens "afterward." :)

Wow, boilerluv.

Well said.

I respect you very much for your no-nonsense views. Your comments are even more admirable since you are dealing with cancer.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow, boilerluv.
>
> Well said.
>
> I respect you very much for your no-nonsense
> views. Your comments are even more admirable since
> you are dealing with cancer.

Thanks, dagny. I tend to suspect that there may be some type of afterlife, but since I reject the "traditional' view of heaven, and I also very definitely reject the very idea of a "hell" designed by a loving god, that leaves me with the "university" concept. (Or the other positive possibility, which is total nothingness.) :) We're all going to die, so why stress over it? One's own death, I mean--I certainly understand fearing that something could happen to your kids/grandkids/others you love deeply. I have spent many a sleepless night worrying about the kids I love. But now that I'm moving closer to my own demise, I have embraced pragmatism, and decided to be grateful that I have some time to say things to the people I love--things I may never have told them, things that I want to say, and try to make sure that my going on ahead on an earlier train will not affect them too much for too long. I'm writing my own obituary, with the understanding that if my kids don't like it, they're at perfect liberty to change it in any way they want. Fortunately, we're all of like mind religion-wise, so I don't have to worry that they might change "died" to "Went home to be with her lord and savior" or claim that I am now "resting in peace in the arms of Jesus" as I have seen in some other obits. :D

People have asked me if I have a bucket list and how many things are left on it. I am pretty frank about it, and tell them that any "bucket list" I might have had would include things I can't possibly afford--you know, the travels to see the seven wonders of the world, etc., so actually, the only item on my list is to die with a clear conscience. This means that every day I have to make sure that I don't say or do anything that I could have to apologize for tomorrow, because tomorrow is not promised to anyone, and definitely not to people of my age with terminal diseases. If I do say or do something I'm sorry for, I own up to it immediately and apologize. So far, that has worked fairly well for me. Fortunately, I don't set the bar too high for myself--I allow myself a number of f-bombs and assorted other curses when needed, as well as a glass of wine if called for. After all, the idea to be an atheist with a clear conscience, not become a TBM or a nun. :)

It's no place for such a raw tour de force!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2017 02:29AM by steve benson.

Which one?

Perhaps "Christ" is most valuable as a sort of Rorschach.

That is, "Christ" has no intrinsic meaning beyond incidental reports of a human being who may or may not have lived a couple thousand years ago in the Holy Land, who was apparently crucified, and then a story about him was propagated (especially by Saul of Tarsus) and later usurped by Rome as the state religion.

In the next two millenia "Christ" means different things to different people until we arrive at today where projections onto and regarding his animus run the gamut: a source of post-death salvation, a justification for discrimination, a teacher of personal morality and ethics, a social justice figurehead, an overhyped martyr, etc. etc.

You've heard the term, "cafeteria Catholic" to describe Catholics who pick and chose which aspects of their church's dogma to follow and which to ignore. I think this is being too harsh, perhaps, on Catholics. Aren't we all to a great extent "cafeteria Human Beings"? Don't we pick and choose what feels right and what doesn't? And isn't that a good thing, because if we tried to incorporate everything we quote-unquote should, our heads would explode.

Let a thousand lights, each a different color and each from a different direction, shine upon this Rorschach we call "Christ."

Justification:

He created you. You would not exist without him. You would not draw your next breath without his permission. EVERY knee will bow (including people who thought they were atheists), and confess he is Lord whether now or later. He is the creator of all that is, and all that exists. He is without end or comprehension to a mortal like you and me. He is Lord of all creation.

He does not require your justification. He is the great I AM. Whether you believe or don't doesn't change that he keeps the earth from colliding with the sun every day, and commands the oceans to not trespass their bounds.

What you do with Jesus will be the question everyone will have to deal with for eternity. He Sovereign..period.

Please describe the time, place and circumstance of its receipt.

Justify Christ? Might as well ask me to justify Gandalf. The canonized gospels are hokey at best. That there is no evidence whatsoever regarding hysterical JuHEEsus says its all a hoax.

I will, however, attempt to 'justify' why he has yet to return.

Gawd: "Son, its been 2000 years. Don't you think its about time?"

JuHEEsus: "Sure thing, Pops. I'll get right on it just as soon as I can PLAY THE F**KING PIANO AGAIN!"

I sure as hell wouldn't be in no hurry.

Timothy