I don't want to argue. I just don't understand why and I think it's wrong. I want to know why you think it's important.

Daily prayer
Bible study
Creationism
Dominionism
Ten Commandments displayed
etc., etc.

The one thing Christians seem to forget these days is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 08:00AM by anybody.

I think all religions should be taught about, not strictly speaking 'teaching' the religion, but teaching about the religion: it's beliefs, it's adherants, it's beginnings, etc. This is difficult to do impartially sometimes, but if one religion demands respect then all other religions should be afforded the *equal* respect. If one values their own religion, they should understand and respect the value people of other religions place on their beliefs - whether or not pupils of other faiths attend the school, this should still be the case.

This approach breeds tolerance and acceptance amongst young children and teaches them to accept the differences between them and their peers. For example, when a youngster learns a sikh male does not cut his hair for religious reasons he is not so much a 'rag-head' but more a turban wearer. Little changes can have big effects in the world.

but publicly funded faith-based education. I have rephrased the question.

Whose religion do you think should be taught in government schools ?

I'm with you, Anybody, and that's the way it is in France, unless you take your children out of the public education system, where the best schools are (unlike in the UK).

Here, if you want your children to learn about any religion, you have to do it outside school (i.e. in private). They do, however, study the bible in literary and anthropological terms when they're 16 (because it is historically important in our culture), but they avoid the religious side as religion is considered by the law here to be a private, personal matter which should stay that way.

It seems to have served my own children well.

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 10:09AM by Soft Machine.

and researchers to move to France...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/04/emmanuel-macron-enjoins-uneasy-us-scientists-move-to-france



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 11:04AM by anybody.

I could also mention the fact that both my wife and my elder daughter are mathematicians...

"...as religion is considered by the law here to be a private, personal matter which should stay that way."



Well, when you put it that way, it occurs to me that putting religion in public schools would then make it a "public, non-personal" matter, in which certain protections against criticisms and amendment might be more easily eroded.

How would that work under existing laws? "No, Billy, we must not exclude a Muslim prayer, as that is in violation of Ahmed's religious freedom. Now, spread your prayer rugs in the direction of Mecca as shown by the arrow on the ceiling..."

There are several closely-related reasons that come to mind. It would provide a consistent message from another source, providing secular legitimacy to the religious subject. It allows the blending of faith-based and fact-based subjects to dilute the doubtful portions of the message. It would shorten the interval between reinforcing messages to maintain the indoctrination,...etc.

You can probably guess how I feel about the matter.

1) Daily prayer
2) Bible study
3) Creationism
4) Dominionism
5) Ten Commandments displayed

1 and 2 because life is confusing. Kids need answers anywhere they can get them. What's most important to learn in School is the development of character and acquisition of manners. It's very difficult to teach directly without religious education. Ask any high school teacher. Every few years school districts try the self improvement/social skills curriculum in home room in high schools and it's generally a flop. The kids mock being taught etiquette directly. But throw in a God who's going to smack you and all of the sudden it works? lol!

3 because it's true.

4 kids have to be taught respect for laws. To obey the law.

5 because American laws and culture are based on English custom which is based on them. Other minority cultures have less power and dominance.

WTF

1 and 2 because life is confusing. Kids need answers anywhere they can get them.

- No they don't, they need correct answers from verifiable sources, not any answer from anywhere.

What's most important to learn in School is the development of character and acquisition of manners. It's very difficult to teach directly without religious education. Ask any high school teacher. Every few years school districts try the self improvement/social skills curriculum in home room in high schools and it's generally a flop. The kids mock being taught etiquette directly. But throw in a God who's going to smack you and all of the sudden it works? lol!

- So you have to threaten "GOD" to teach kids manners?? Go watch "To Sir With Love"...yes its a movie, but it makes the point.


3 because it's true.

- Saying "because its true" doesn't make it so.

4 kids have to be taught respect for laws. To obey the law.

- That's what our justice system does...as best it can. You want "religious law" taught? Scary!

5 Because American laws and culture are based on English custom which is based on them. Other minority cultures have less power and dominance.

- So your tradition can beat up their tradition? Sure, I get it now.

Thank you, Jonny. I was speechless.

Is poopstone for real?

yeah, my jaw dropped when I read that.

Poopstone is an idiot. Ignore him. I actually don't think he is a troll, but he sure is stupid. When he says things like this, he actually believes them.

What asinine answers. Read the Bible and pray because life is confusing?

Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Man, do I feel less confused. And such answers! It's like all of the sudden life makes sense now.

Poopstone should be ignored whenever he posts. He does his best to insert some variation of an accusation that something is liberal/something misogynistic in everything he posts, almost without fail

Character education helps a little with kids, but it only goes so far. Ultimately it comes back to parenting. Even a church can only reinforce what has been learned in the home.

Yes, kids sometimes turn out well despite very bad parenting, and vice-versa. But as a teacher, in my opinion parents are the single biggest influence on a child.

1) Daily prayer
2) Bible study
3) Creationism
4) Dominionism
5) Ten Commandments displayed

"1 and 2 because life is confusing. Kids need answers anywhere they can get them."

Okay, so which religion shall we teach them to pray in? Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Islam? Christianity?

"What's most important to learn in School is the development of character and acquisition of manners."

No. Character development and aquisition of manners is best taught by the parents or guardians. What's most important to learn in school is how to read, write, and use mathematics. How to think critically. How to evaluate bullshit when they see it. There are no manners classes in school and there shouldn't be. Whose idea of correct manners shall we teach then? Old testament (an eye for an eye) or New (as I have loved you, love one another)?

"It's very difficult to teach directly without religious education. Ask any high school teacher."

Bullshit. There is no high school teacher who would make an argument that A) they teach manners in school and B) it's difficult to teach manners without a religious context. Manners and religion have nothing to do with one another.

"Every few years school districts try the self improvement/social skills curriculum in home room in high schools and it's generally a flop. The kids mock being taught etiquette directly. But throw in a God who's going to smack you and all of the sudden it works? lol!"

I'm going to need a citation for that outlandish claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is not a single school district that is trying to teach manners and etiquette in school. (Because it's not in the Standards and the standardized tests are based on the standards. You can't test manners. If it ain't on the tests, it's not in the curriculum.)

"3 because it's true."

Creationism is true? Which creationist story? The Muslims'? The Native Americans'? Christianity's? There are many, many creationist stories that conflict with one another.

"4 kids have to be taught respect for laws. To obey the law."
Funny you should bring that up because the LAW requires a separation of church and state so that the government cannot dictate which religion you must adhere to. That's why Jewish people, and Muslim people, and Buddhist people, and Hindu people can all live in this country and practice their religions freely. Even factions within Christianity conflict with one another. Who else went to school with a JW kid who wasn't allowed to stand up for the pledge of allegiance or participate in a birthday celebration? JW kids can't participate in any sort of holiday recital for Halloween or Christmas or even Easter.

"5 because American laws and culture are based on English custom which is based on them. Other minority cultures have less power and dominance."

The English customs -- by which you mean English LAW, as customs and law are two different things -- are not based on the 10 commandments, they are based on the Magna Carta. Apparently, you've never taken a Civics or a World History class? Here, don't take my word for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

I understand why religious believers want their particular religion taught in public schools -- they think it gives legitimacy to their beliefs, and they think it will keep kids in their religion.

Both ideas are incorrect.

And unconstitutional. For very good reasons.

If religious believers want to teach their kids their myths and fantasies, they're free to do so at home/church. They're not free to force their myths and fantasies on everyone else using public schools/money.

If that is what you want school to teach your children, home school or send them to private school.

I want children to learn to think. None of those things will teach them to think. Indoctrination does not give you an innovative culture. We need more innovation, not less.

Students need to know how others believe. That isn't faith-based. That's learning to understand diversity.

That's already taught, though.

Religious and cultural history is fine .Prayer ,Intelligent Design is not fine at all and is Unconstitutional.

I don't personally know any religious people that are insisting on these things. Religions should be taught in a cultural study without advocacy. Teaching kids that Christians believe Jesus died for their sins is simply conveying doctrine the same as Muslims believe Muhammad was a prophet of God. There's nothing wrong with teaching our kids we were founded as a secular nation, but religion played a much larger role in the lives of most citizens back then than it does now, and for a very long time Christianity was the dominant religion. I am troubled when I see attempts to rewrite history to strip religious elements out of it in a misguided attempt to secularize schooling.

It's important to recognize that religious people also pay taxes, and there's nothing wrong with their tax dollars going to private schools of their choice that may feature elements more in keeping with their personal lifestyles. That simple freedom should be afforded to all families as long as the outcome of the education delivers the basics we've come to expect of a school.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's important to recognize that religious people
> also pay taxes, and there's nothing wrong with
> their tax dollars going to private schools of
> their choice that may feature elements more in
> keeping with their personal lifestyles.

Yes, actually, there is something wrong with tax dollars going to private schools -- period. Whether those private schools are religiously-based, secularly-based, or anything else. Private schools are responsible for their own funding, they don't get to grab tax dollars. Religious people can give money to them if they want to, but tax dollars shouldn't go to them.

> That
> simple freedom should be afforded to all families
> as long as the outcome of the education delivers
> the basics we've come to expect of a school.

Government supporting private institutions with tax money isn't "simple freedom." Governments tax people to fund public operations and programs, not to fund private businesses. And yes, I know the government sometimes *does* supply funds to private businesses, like the auto industry bailouts -- I'm against those as well.

Well, you and I have been on opposite sides of this for a while. That's fine. No need to rehash it. We likely both know the others arguments pretty well.

I think we are likely entering a time when vouchers are going to take on some renewed vigor. Somewhere, Milton Friedman is smiling. Perhaps another 4 or 8 years and we'll see a change of tide. For now, I'll smile and claim "competition improves everything!" and you can frown and say, "They're robbing our schools and ruining everything!"

On a purely practical note, most teachers can't afford to work for a private/parochial school wage (Many of us would love to explore the private school option, but simply can't.) Vouchers *might* level the playing field, but somehow I doubt it.

I remember when my urban school district first started to allow charter schools. The charters (although funded with public money) felt free to boot out the troublemakers to the public schools. For quite a while the rest of us felt put upon because we were forced to take the extreme discipline issues from the charters. Then the rules changed and the charters had to educate every student that was either admitted or within their zone.

I imagine the same would be true under the voucher system. The private schools would be free to take the cream of the crop, leaving the hard-to-teach kids to the public schools, therefore making us "bad schools." I've been playing this game for a while, and I know how it works. Heads, the private schools win, tails, the public schools lose.

Tall Man, Short Hair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we are likely entering a time when
> vouchers are going to take on some renewed vigor.

Since the new Education Secretary is a big advocate, possibly. I wouldn't count on it, though...for lots of reasons.

> For now, I'll smile and claim "competition
> improves everything!"

Funny, you don't seem to like competition when it comes to religious beliefs, or when it comes to people from other countries coming here to work, etc. Hmm.

> and you can frown and say,
> "They're robbing our schools and ruining
> everything!"

I would never say that. I would, and have, strongly object to public money funding private education. Of any kind.

Education is a complex issue that involves many millions of students, teachers, etc. Anybody who thinks "vouchers" to send a few kids to private "faith-based" schools is going to make any substantial improvement in education should do some more research on facts. :)

That is already taught. What you are describing is not faith-based education. It is history.



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wrong place



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2017 12:34AM by Loyalexmo.

"I don't personally know any religious people that are insisting on these things."

"I am troubled when I see attempts to rewrite history to strip religious elements out of it in a misguided attempt to secularize schooling."

Which one is it?

In America Parents may ordain that thier child be immersed in any imaginable superstition; but there is yet to be a law that would allow me to keep my children free from it.

Heavy Sigh...

HH =)

The purpose of the Utah Zion Curtain is not to protect children from the sight of beer actually being poured. It serves one purpose. It sends the message, clear and loud, to both businesses and customers that deal with alcohol, that "Mormons are in charge here, and don't you <bleeping> forget it!"

Utah "private clubs" served exactly the same purpose, but they finally came to be seen as too heavy-handed, so the Zion Curtain was the fall-back.

School prayer and similar issues are for the purpose of sending the message that "Christians are in charge here, and don't you <bleeping> forget it!" It is a dominance display, pure and simple, and when they aren't allowed to dominate because of that pesky "establishment of religion" clause, they get monumentally pissed off, and they negotiate down to some lesser dominance display.

This seems to be the most plausible reason especially given the militant political approach they are taking. In other words, their view is "America is a Christian nation and we allow the rest of you heathens and atheists to live here at our sufferance. Too bad. Take it or leave it."



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When I started grade one in 1954 we sang Oh Canada followed by the lords prayer.

Ha! Moi aussi. We had to say a pledge to the flag and the queen, too.

My high school, Evangelical, friend sees her religion as truth. Therefore it ( meaning Intelligent Design) should be taught in public school as if it is the basis of all science, which she believes it is in her mind. I cannot get through to her on this subject so I've stopped trying. But if you think your religion is the "one and only true and God sponsored religion on the face of the earth" then I guess you want it taught in public school. I disagree strongly with this opinion but I mention it simply to answer OP's question. I'm not sure my friend even considers it religion. She sees it as pure fact and thinks everyone else should see it this way as well. Someone this deluded is difficult to converse with rationally.

My kid goes to a private Catholic school (we're not Catholic, but Utah public schools suck). She gets religion classes forced in her curriculum. Part of the deal while attending. Most of the kids in school aren't Catholic either (plus, about 15% mormon). Most of the kids think organized religion is BS, but they go along to get along.
The other day her friend said that Jesus is just a grown up version of Santa Claus. Be good, or else.....

A movie about Madeleine Murray O'Hair is about to be released. She was one of the plaintiffs in the cases that became the original school prayer decision. She was a famously loudmouth atheist, and things did not end well for her. She was pretty colorful.

What I don't want to see here is outlawing head coverings, or requiring people to wear uniforms or other clothing that is against their personal beliefs. I don't like that about France.

Although I would agree about the banning of head-coverings (i.e. headscarfs) being a bad thing in France because it was thought up entirely as a provocation to muslims, nobody in France is required to wear a uniform which they don't agree with. We don't have school uniforms in France (something I applaud as I was forced to wear uniforms throughout my schooling from age 4 to age 18 in the UK - and I know from experience that all the arguments that it "hides social differences" are nonsense...).

The headscarf ban turned out to be counter-productive too. Before Sarkozy instituted it, there were very few headscarfs to be seen. After it, they became the norm because muslims saw it as an attack on their culture (not necessarily their religion).

Tom in Paris

Hey, Tom -- hope you read this, totally off-topic...

Our spring trip to Paris couldn't be worked out.
Wife now wants summer, I keep telling her the only people in Paris in summer are the tourists. Maybe early fall :)

Take care.

The purpose of education (public or private) is to pound children into nice little rectangular solids so they'll stack efficiently once they're extruded from school and end up somewhere by default--an office, a laboratory, a factory, or maybe another school where they can do the pounding on the next generation.

Their function is purely economic. Contribute to collective wealth or get the fuck out of society.

So, it's all about return on investment: if religion makes them more economically productive, teach it! If other curricula--myths about how wonderful U.S. history is, currency trading techniques, psychological processes to use in advertising, organic chemistry experiments that increase margins in fracking operations--prove more efficient than religion, then religion should not be taught.

They should not, because schools are meant to teach fact.

Public schools can (and probably should) teach about all kinds of beliefs -- they just can't make students practice any of them.

Example: my public junior high school taught us about Islam long before the terrorism hysteria.

Just so we don't mean every believer when it is suggested that "believers want"...this believer would prefer religion to be kept out of schools.

ok. No arguing...

I say let parents choose educational options for their children. Let parents choose all religion, introduction to religion or no religion.

Many people cite "Separation of Church and State" to forbid any teaching of religion. What the "No Establishment Clause" means is that government shall not mandate religious involvement. But that does not mean that government can not leave religious involvement to the discretion of citizens.

Parents have that "freedom" now.

It's not "freedom" to insist that public funds pay for your chosen religious education -- it's theocracy.

Your assertion about "separation of church and state" is a straw-man. The establishment clause doesn't forbid any teaching of religion. It *does* mean that the government shouldn't teach religion, especially (but not limited to) any one particular religion. Because if the government picks one (or a group) to teach, it is endorsing and "establishing" them as the ones the government prefers. So the government stays out of religious instruction, as it should. Non-government groups are free to teach all the religion they want to -- but they have no "right" to expect the government to pay for it, which if it did would also be an "establishment of religion."

"Teach a child one religion, you'll indoctrinate her.
Teach a child all religions, you'll inoculate her."

This is just my opinion, but I don't think there should be faith-based public education for the reasons others have listed. People who wish to enroll their children in the religious schools of their choosing are free to do so as long as they're able and willing to foot the bill.

In terms of teaching about religion, a broad overview of world religions is reasonable, but that's as far as it should go, in my opinion, in a publicly funded school.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2017 04:16AM by scmd.

and sent to "segregation" academies and/or "christian" academies. But that alone can't explain the very vocal evanglical demands to legislate religion. Catholics and Jews have sent their children to private school for decades without demanding the rest of society share their religious beliefs by force of law. I agree with the other poster who said it was more of a cultural dominance thing rather than a truly religious endeavour.

If you take a couple of weeks and listen to religious right evangelical media you'll soon learn that "christian" (code for "white") people are under threat, their way of life is being destroyed by Islam which is taking over the world, the US was founded as a "christian" nation (Mormons also buy into this which is why I think they are just another offshoot on the periphery of white Christian Identity movement), their children are also being taken away from them by godless gays and atheists, and so on. Ironically, they have a love/hate relationship with Jews as they support Israel on the one hand for reasons of Biblical prophecy and on the other blame Jews for controlling the world.

My take on all this is it has more to do with white fear of coming demographic change rather than fear of the young abandoning religion.

I wonder if fear has anything to do with it.

Secularism and atheism are on the rise and I bet that really frightens heavily religious people. They're afraid that their kids will meet atheist kids at school, or learn too much about free thought and critical thinking, and subsequently lose all interest in their religious upbringing. So they want to infuse as much of their particular religion into public schools as possible, to reinforce the brainwashing in a desperate bid to keep their kids in the faith. And maybe brainwash some heathen children along the way. It's a win-win right?