So I can't help but hearing stories from the past. There use to be a custom in COJCOLDS that when a person was ex'd it was announced from the pulpit by the bishop. So everyone would know who was a big sinner and who wasn't. This went on until at least the 1980's.

A close relative of mine was telling me recently that years ago he was living in a small branch and was dating a Mormon girl. But she liked someone else more and he got dumped. Well like any other young guy deep in puppy love, he was heart broken. He went to the bar and got stone drunk. Well somehow the bishop/branch president got to hear about it and they called him in for an "elders court" and he was disfellowshipped. He was told he was unworthy of the sacrament and was the gossip of the branch for at least a month. Well this went on for weeks when finally they decided he had been punished enough and was forgiven for the terrible atrocity he had done.

Would discipline like this happen today? I hear about men in Utah having affairs and marrying their new wives in the temple right away without any shaming or ex'ing. Of course women wouldn't have as much leeway if they tried it...

It could happen. Or it might not happen. All LDS discipline is meted out arbitrarily, and depends solely on the bishop (for a bishop's court, for Aaronic priesthood and women) or the stake president (for a stake court), and whether the men are nice guys, or dicks. But it also depends on the good name (LDS royalty?) and position of the person being scrutinized (public figure? wealthy?), and where that person lives, such as in the US, or outside the US. Some leaders in the Morridor are very narrow and short-sighted; many leaders in Europe are more broad-minded and would not care as much.

As an example, Kate Kelly got excommunicated very easily by her former bishop, who acted alone and out of Kate's network. Yet the church accepted the bishop's judgment--which likely came by way of interference from SLC, anyway. It took the church a long time to figure out what to do about Jeremy Runnells or John Dehlin, both Melchizedek priesthood holders and higher profile people. Dehlin had become a prominent figure, so the authorities knew they could get a black eye, but they had to do something. The answer is to always demean the person publicly in some way, so that the area members will view the act as legitimate. Simon Southerton, for instance, wrote a book that embarrassed the church, so an order from on high in SLC instructed his stake leaders to bring him up publicly on charges of adultery, betting that local members would be fine with getting an adulterer out of their midst. I guess. Who the hell really knows?

Now I wonder about active but feminist New Zealand member, Gina Colvin. As a feminist, she's already going publicly against teachings of Boyd K. Packer et al. regarding the evils of women thinking they're something, when actually they're not. But she also cavorts with John Dehlin, among others, and therefore associates herself with apostate, an infraction of the rules for obtaining a temple recommend. I have no knowledge of how she feels about her membership, or how her ward and stake authorities in New Zealand are compared to the tin hats in the United States. My guess is that in Mormonism's arbitrary discipline procedures, people come out ahead if they reside in New Zealand as opposed to the US, but I don't really have any clear idea. It's just a notion of mine.

As someone living in Europe for 8 years and married to a European in the Church, I can say that discipline here can be totally screwed up, arbitrary, and even corrupt.

It seems to me an excommunicated person could go ward hopping if they wanted to experience normal church attendance. Except maybe the high profile ones: "Hey, aren't you John Dehlin?"

uh yah, in the 1800's an LDS's failure to live up to their MORmON commitments could cost them their life.
In the first half of the 1900's things were still pretty heavy handed and somber.

At present, things are a joke compared to modes of discipline in the past.

That seems to be true. It was more severe back before the 60s and maybe things have lightened up a bit. I'm thinking of the flack people like Juanita Brooks went through to tell an accurate history of mountain meadows. If I recall she was brought in a few times before the bretheren trying to explain the benefits of factual history and why that's so important.

Seems like it has been quiet for a spell now in the excommunication discipline business while the MormonCultCo. has turned its attention instead to holding exceptionally warm fireside group chats with the youth where the young people are permitted to ask their very own before-hand-censored-questions of their beloved apostles. (so generous of the cult, don't you agree?)

Also, the cult has been busy holding Area Firesides to put out the troublesome and nuisance insurrections in such places as Sweden and Boise.

I, personally, think the apostles were needing a more efficient swoop to put out the fires that were growing bigger daily; so they turned to these SIT DOWN, SHUT-UP AND LISTEN MEETINGS where they spelled out loud and clear as to what members, even the innocent youth, can and cannot do, all while while trying to act as if they were so very concerned and caring.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2017 03:24PM by presleynfactsrock.

Wow. I knew that Sweden had had an insurrection, but Boise? Tell me about it!

The church has hit a perfect storm of changing demographics, societal trends towards secularism, the advent of the internet with the ability to publish embarrassing facts, social media allowing members to compare notes and receive support against ecclesiastical abuse, etc.

The old tactics of shaming and discipline just simply aren't as effective as they once were. Discipline is as likely to backfire and embarrass the church as it is to shame the offending one.

The church is simply losing control. Discipline used to be part of that control. There is still a generation of TBM zombies out there who will stick with the program until they die. But I could easily see the church fading into total irrelevance inside of two generations. The Mormons could meet the same fate as the Christian Scientists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2017 12:11AM by Strength in the Loins.

this is what I'm thinking too. As well as the trend of people not establishing roots for decades in one place. These days it isn't uncommon for people to up and move numerous times for their jobs to different states. Whereas 40 years ago people tended to stay in their home towns more and were well known by everyone.

Bishop Koyle was excommunicated due to his influence, after testifying that he was visited by a heavenly messenger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgnq_1VOM8A

There's a concept that John Dehlin has observed from all his interviews called "Ecclesiastical roulette."

The discipline you may get from a hard nosed Bishop, Stake President, and/or high council in the Mormon corridor may be different in liberal university enclaves like Berkley, CA or Cambridge, MA.

Not sure they are getting inspiration from the same Holy the friendly Ghost.

The 2010 handbook explicitly says in a section entitled something like Failure to live standards, that disciplinary councils are not to be held OR THREATENED for porn, "self-abuse", word of wisdom issues, failure to do one's church duties." (I read that as not authorizing any discipline for those contexts.)

And I know that in the last thirty years, even adultery by RMs does not always result in excommunication.

But I don't know that it could reasonably be called a softening of the expectations.

It's probably more desperate fur warm bodies/ workers (free labor!).

Yup, most informed mormons/exmormons realize there's no consistent discipline administered in the so-called, one true church on earth! How can this be? If GOD is indeed omnipotent/ the mormons are his, how can there be such a discrepancy in the order of things! This sounds like random behavior one might experience in a fascist, banana republic not in GOD'S one true kingdom on earth!

The CULT will out of necessary turn a blind eye to many present/future sins if it wants any members at all! Most mormons lie continually to stay in good standing! A hard nosed disciplinary crack down would be debilitating to utterly false, gerrymandered membership records/sacred cash flow!

Make no mistake about it! Their insatiable pursuit of money will win out here! Sins will be overlooked! Remember, these guys can't trade North American members for third world poverty victims! It's all about the money honey! As Always, tnurg (GRUNT)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2017 06:36PM by tnurg.