To see how far human natures can be twisted, altered, and ultimately flex the ultimate muscle - the human brain.

The sign for this is a headless Shiz with its accompanying token - a Zombie, or the sure sign of nailing 3 pounds of gray Jell-o to God's handwriting on the wall of a Mormon temple. And doing this all in the names of dead people.

Thank you evolution.

Cultures that take advantage of people think they should. They just back fill the reasons. The early church leaders thought they should take away everything a man has, to get ultimate power over him. That tradition has continued to this day.

Don't render unto God that which is Caesar's.

Babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> Don't render unto God that which is Caesar's.

Don't render anything unless you know who's the owner. How does one render anything to God without invoking a third party?

There is a huge difference between religion with all its rules and spirituality.

I would love to know how. I've read a lot written by people who claim to not be religious but claim spuriously I think some spirituality. To me they are squaring the circle. Metaphysically speaking the is a leap of faith even in philosophy believing.

I think people can be nihilistic and claim belief. The fact is we believe things. Belief in spirit-anything aligns with religious belief. I think the statement spiritual but not religious is oxymoronic. You can't be philosophical but not follow some sort of philosophy unless you are doing it nihilistically.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2017 02:41PM by Elder Berry.

Spirituality comes from within, I knew a women who would dress all in white and pray to mountain deity when her family got sick. No one told her to do it, to go on a certain day of the week, or to eat/not eat something. No one told her to wear white either, she just felt she should. I can't imagine posing the question was she religious.

We're early humans religious? As a female I share the same cycle length with the moon 28 days, I don't need to be told that, If I lived as close as to the earth as they did I would notice that myself.

seamaiden Wrote:
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> We're early humans religious?

Evidence says they were.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=We%27re+early+humans+religious%3F&gbv=2&oq=We%27re+early+humans+religious%3F&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...2499.2499.0.3378.1.1.0.0.0.0.78.78.1.1.0....0...1ac..34.heirloom-hp..1.0.0.QxW4LCuce2A


"Religion

The Early people believed in their religion that there was life after death. When their bodies where barried they were covered in red dye, furs and jewellery and they were surrounded by weapons, animal bones and a circle of stones."Hunting magic" was away of horouring the animals that the poeple hunted to ensure the success in the hunt.Their paintings were linked to their religion. They belieived that everthing alive had a spirit and believed that creating a animal in paint gave them a kind of magic power over the that animal's spirit.Most neolithic villageshad cheifs that were priests as well as rulers.They handed certain religious duties for the people that lived in their village.There was prayer for things that people needed such as fertile soil,sunshine and water for crops. Also there was prayer to keep mice and insects away from crops.After a little whikle people created gods and goddesses too. The most important was the Earth Mother. Many of these peoples houses of Catal Huyuk contained shrines or antlers that stood on the statues of these goddesses."
http://studyingsocietiesatjhk.pbworks.com/w/page/18798571/Early%20Human%20Cave%20Paintings%20and%20Religion

That is not religious to me, honoring animals. Most religions are human egocentric. Animals don't go to heaven because they have no soul, while they are doing this to insure survival of their selves, they are also acknowledging the part these animals play in sustaining their lives.

We don't do that anymore, and we are killing ourselves in the process. Bees would be a good example to show how our culture does this. We farm, and plants need to be pollinated.

http://www.ecowatch.com/if-all-the-bees-in-the-world-die-what-would-happen-to-humans-1882077225.html

Think about your version of the creation story how modern humans came to be and I'll show you what I mean.

seamaiden Wrote:
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> That is not religious to me, honoring animals.
> Most religions are human egocentric.

All of them are. If they weren't they wouldn't exist because there would be no humans to perpetuate them.

We might be caught up on my definition of religious, which is any belief in something supernatural. I think someone is religious if they are merely superstitious. If they think that they have to enact a little ritual to appease the power of fate it is religious in my mind. They are subjects of a higher power they don't understand but are believing they have an influence upon.

Spirituality is the same game in a different guise. It is betting that their is something out there that they can tap into even if it is merely just accepting that there is a possibility it merely exists. It is a religious sentiment in higher sentient power(s.)

Religions in my definition take natural laws out of play for us, Spirituality does not do this.

Are we as a species still evolving? Did we hit the pinnacle?

seamaiden Wrote:
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> Religions in my definition take natural laws out
> of play for us, Spirituality does not do this.

So religion is unnatural for you? Religions aren't religion in my opinion. They are organized large group expressions of it. They are more cultural than personal.

> Are we as a species still evolving? Did we hit the
> pinnacle?

Yes. And how would I know? Did someone prove it scientifically?

If you see a lion I hope you run, even though Daniel prayed! That lion well eat you cause that is how it survives. You still didn't answer the question are we still evolving? In man the end all be all?

We grow food to feed the hungry more and more, guess what.. they will never get fed because in every other species on the planet if there is more food that species population will grow. Don't apply to us thou.. we have to be fruitful and multiply!!

Religion is literally killing us!!

Spirituality does not have "rules" like this its inward based by not human based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAqWUxCjisE



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2017 03:12PM by seamaiden.

seamaiden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You still didn't answer the
> question are we still evolving? In man the end all
> be all?

Yes we are. And I don't know. But I think there is a good possibility humans aren't.

> Spirituality does not have "rules" like this its
> inward based by not human based.

Boiled down to it's essence religion only has one rule - that there existences something greater in power, intelligence, or essence than human (in power, intelligence, or essence) which humans can connect to somehow.

Spirituality is just another way to say religious, superstitious, and belief in something greater.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2017 03:24PM by Elder Berry.

I can't believe that, If I didn't look inward, I couldn't look at my impact, and the fact that how I was "sharing" this planet.. is wrong!

Evolution doesn't just stop!!

Behaviors also evolve, and the ones we are adopting are not good ones.

seamaiden Wrote:
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> I can't believe that, If I didn't look inward, I
> couldn't look at my impact, and the fact that how
> I was "sharing" this planet.. is wrong!

You have four I's in that sentence.

Consciousness as a consistent "I" isn't necessary in having consciousness. It is an emotionally strengthened useful behavior. There have been cultures where the individual designation of "I" is absurd. Humans for whom thinking of themselves as somehow not a part of everything and really having an inner "I" that could reflect upon everything as a separate entity doesn't compute.

> Behaviors also evolve, and the ones we are
> adopting are not good ones.

Is this an ethical evaluation or a "spiritual" one?

That Is Ethical!


I is reached by looking inward... Not by being told you are, you aren't, or you should. Should is also a judging word!

seamaiden Wrote:
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> That Is Ethical!

Evolution cares nothing for ethics.

> I is reached by looking inward... Not by being
> told you are, you aren't, or you should. Should is
> also a judging word!

Humans probably evolved more brains from social behaviors than looking inward.

Do we use those brains? I think most of us continue to shoot ourselves in the foot, as the example I gave prove!

Is this your example?

"We grow food to feed the hungry more and more, guess what.. they will never get fed because in every other species on the planet if there is more food that species population will grow. Don't apply to us thou.. we have to be fruitful and multiply!!

Religion is literally killing us!!"

I don't think religion is the reason we as a species mostly live on less calories than we need and many of us starve while human like me live around an abundance of food sources. It might contribute to the understanding that humans are responsible for themselves only and not their neighbors but some religions harp on caring for your neighbor as yourself.

Spiritually inclined peoples are no less guilty of continuing to perpetuate a world of want.

I believe we evolved from want. It is where we came from and that is why we have the many starving many overweight conditions today. We try things out in our cultures but there is also affected by evolution. This flexing of our collective muscle (the brain) is still under the influence of evolutionary forces hundreds of thousands if not millions of years old.

Spirituality (and its many cousins the religions of the world) is an appeal to something beyond our flexing. It is an individual's appealing to something to provide a context for our continual trying out things in our cultures. We can't stop this. We are the adapting animal and we will create cultures to express our innate need to adapt.

I posted a video, and that is my proof! We are still shooting ourselves in the foot! We are over populated and can't feed the people living now, but we are to be fruitful and Multiply. Natural laws that govern all other species on the planet do not apply to us. Life for us will suck without bees, we are already heavily burdened with food production because of our population, Bees pollinate 70% of crops. They help sustain us. If there is no eucalyptus what happens to Koalas? If there are no Ibex what happens to Lions? Also what other species of the planet does not share food? Do Hyenas guard a herd of animals so no other species can eat like we do with pesticides, herbicides, and fences? No, everything is ours!! Where would an idea like that come from?

Gen 1:26

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

what part of that example isn't true? If true what part of that isn't shooting ourselves in the foot because of religious text?


Spirituality does not give ideas like this...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2017 08:34AM by seamaiden.

I need reinforcements.

"Knowing how spirituality differs from religion

Although religion and spirituality are sometimes used interchangeably, they really indicate two different aspects of the human experience. You might say that spirituality is the mystical face of religion.

* Spirituality is the wellspring of divinity that pulsates, dances, and flows as the source and essence of every soul. Spirituality relates more to your personal search, to finding greater meaning and purpose in your existence. Some elements of spirituality include the following:

• Looking beyond outer appearances to the deeper significance and soul of everything

• Love and respect for God

• Love and respect for yourself

• Love and respect for everybody

* Religion is most often used to describe an organized group or culture that has generally been sparked by the fire of a spiritual or divine soul. Religions usually act with a mission and intention of presenting specific teachings and doctrines while nurturing and propagating a particular way of life."
http://www.dummies.com/religion/spirituality/exploring-the-meaning-of-spirituality/

You are using the passage of one book (Gen 1:26) to paint religion. I think I'm never going to be able to converse with you. You are beating one drum.

I get what you are saying, what I am saying is how could a view like that, Us being the end all be all, be so predominate in world view? What carried that forward to cover the globe?

Spirituality or Religion

http://www.nsac.org/spiritualism.php

seamaiden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get what you are saying, what I am saying is how
> could a view like that, Us being the end all be
> all, be so predominate in world view?

Self reference is a strong part of us. Even in our social cohesion we create us and them cultures. I believe agriculture (the most powerful boost to humans flexing their brains into diverse cultural variants) created a disharmony with the environment which all inhabited.

Before agriculture humans couldn't collectively own much.

> What carried
> that forward to cover the globe?

Religion is one of many catalysts for human cultural expressions in my opinion.

From your link.

"We believe in Infinite Intelligence."
http://www.nsac.org/spiritualism.php

This connecting to something even greater than collectives of humans can be like I believe you believe - something more inclusive of the non-human or very exclusive of the human which organized religions use to attract adherents.

The chosen people has cache and has in agrarian societies for millenia. When smaller groups of hunter gatherers think of themselves as chosen it is always in the context of other competing gods. Once you settle down and collecting things, people, and storing food, you need to make your gods more important than your neighbor's gods to validate your claims to more and more property.

The Universe in mental held in the mind of the All- Kybailion That line you quoted can be taken in many ways and excludes none.

anyway


A spiritualist, who practices spiritualism will have a different spirituality then someone who practices something else. Did that page give the idea that humans were better then anything else? that science can be overlooked?

One feeds your spirit and one teaches behaviors,or modifies them
anti-gay anti-abortion ect ect yes, they sometimes work together, but they don't need to. I think everyone here knows why that is!

The origin of "spiritual" is the Latin word spiritus meaning breath. Breathing, an essential element of human life, thus informs that spirituality has something to do with an essence of living. Other words with this common root include inspire, aspire and to conspire which means to breathe together.

All I am saying is watch what you're being fed, again we have all been through that here! The bible to me is sending behaviors that are detrimental to life! We just see it differently.

Also I apologize that I am not very articulate when I write

seamaiden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All I am saying is watch what you're being fed,
> again we have all been through that here! The
> bible to me is sending behaviors that are
> detrimental to life! We just see it differently.

We all live in different worlds. I'm processing what I'm fed differently than you. That is one of the wonders of my world - that humans are so very different from each other yet are social creatures.

I don't get much passion, motivation, or internal fire in exploring spirituality. It seems just another variant of superstitions of which I include religions.

But my superstitions probably come in separate forms. Scientific theories are better information for me personally than my horoscope but they don't fill in many gaps. Their whys interest me more than the hows. This is why I turn to philosophy. In an existence like ours I think of it as a more interesting turning towards the unknown. It isn't inherently more correct in my opinion. And it has the added bonus for me of no appealing to greater beings (well not all the time as Hegel, Kant, and Kierkegaard attest.) Ultimately they are the ideas of others.

I have to explore the information I chose using my own lens.

> Also I apologize that I am not very articulate
> when I write

No need. We have been able to communicate.

Accidental ingestion of psychotropic substances and then ritualized, is thought to be one of the main factors in the start of religion.

From my APA paper:

“The consumption of psychedelic plants during religious rituals is reviewed and it is hypothesized that images, figures, illusions and hallucinations experienced during these ‘plant trips’ had a great impact on the formation and creation of many figures, characters…images that not only exist in mythology, but also many religions as well” (Sayin, 2014).

"There is an astonishing amount of psychotropics found in religious practices all over the globe throughout history (Swilhite). The purpose of consuming of these drugs, despite any negative side effects, range from spiritual guidance, to negotiation with the gods/spirits, to coming of age rituals, to seeking clarity in times of personal turmoil (Kottak, 2012 & Miller, 2013). The Oracle of Delphi supposedly ingested bay laurel leaves to induce her prophetic trance, but recent findings detailed that the trance was induced by ethylene intoxication from geo-activity by the temple where she resided (Foster, J., & D. Lehoux. 2007). Mayans used psilocybin mushrooms and peyote was extensively used by Native Americans in the southwest for their spiritual journeys (Swilhite). Peyote comes from a small cactus found in the desert southwest of North America, also used by Aztecs in rituals that transformed them into “divine deer” (Furst, 2004). In South America, the spines of another cactus, the San Pedro, is priceless to the Andean shamans who ingest the plant to become their alter ego of the sacred jaguar (Furst, 2004). Cannabis is another well-known psychoactive drug that was first used in China, and has spread all over the world in its use, recreationally, medically, and spiritually (Swilhite). The stereotypical magic mushroom, fly agaric (amanita muscaria), is well known as are peyote and cannabis, but there are lesser known substances such as a blue morning glory seed and the seeds of the Jimson Weed that have hallucinogenic properties used in various rituals in their respective areas (Listverse, 2014.) Shamans in Siberia used the fly agaric mushroom to “free their souls for out-of-body journeys to the spirit world” (Furst, 2004). In southwestern Texas, archeologists stumbled across some mescal beans, the seeds of a flowering tree, that Plains Native Americans used in a ritual called the Deer Dance (Furst, 2004). The stereotypical image of the broomstick riding witch comes from the wise women in Europe that prepared a hallucinogenic ointment made with ingredients such as nightshade and black henbane to take a spiritual trip outside of their bodies in the much the same manner as Siberian shamans (Andrew, 2016). The witches would apply the ointment to their broomstick handles and insert vaginally to absorb the mixture for their rituals and enter a dissociative state similar to the other various sensations experienced during a drug trip (Andrew, 2016). There are other controversial drug induced ceremonies embedded in the cultural consciousness that have a history in ritualistic practices and modern science is finding new uses for these ancient psychoactives."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2017 05:44PM by Itzpapalotl.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are other controversial drug induced
> ceremonies embedded in the cultural consciousness
> that have a history in ritualistic practices and
> modern science is finding new uses for these
> ancient psychoactives."


I'd love to read the rest. What is modern science using them for?

But I want to tread lightly since illegal drug usage is verboten here.

"While it seems unethical now, this research provided an early theory that LSD affects serotonin in the brain, a hormone that regulates mood, and modern technology has indeed proved that the neurotransmitters that produce serotonin are stimulated by LSD (Nichols, 2004.) "

LSD and psilocybin mushrooms are tentatively used as a method to treat alcoholism and for some patients it seems to work. I read a few articles on it then decided on researching the subject for my JAR final in biology:

"It is detailed in the article some of the theories of how LSD works and the mechanism for action in the brain is in the cerebral cortex, in the 5HT2A serotonin receptor. Serotonin is a “feel good” hormone and is released during acts such as sexual activity. The cerebral cortex mediates the higher brain functions and so LSD would alter some of those functions while in use. Although current research has rejected this theory, some researchers speculated that LSD affects the dorsal raphe, a part of the brainstem associated with basic functions like sleeping and walking, and a sight for serotonin reception. One theory is that LSD “reorders memories” into a different perspective using Freudian concepts about memory.

'Therapists hope to utilize LSD in helping alcoholics cope with their addiction and eventually mitigate their behaviors and there are Canadian researchers who found moderate success in using this psychotropic to treat alcoholism. Humphrey Osmann and Abram Hoffer at the Saskatchewan Hospital theorized alcoholics needed a “jolt” of the reality of their actions that LSD could be effective in treating this common maladaptive problem with alcoholics.

'In the 1950s and 60s, the drug was utilized to treat ADHD along with Ritalin and strangely enough, disorders such as psoriasis, sexual dysfunctions and anxiety. Unfortunately, this research is one of the reasons LSD research in a clinical setting was illegalized. Modern researchers are skeptical of the therapeutic value of LSD, which is understandable, but those at the Mendota Mental Health Institute in Wisconsin are finding some value in treating alcoholics with LSD. Some are hoping that the drug will provide a moment of clarity for alcoholics and actually desire a quick fix for the issue, but in some cases LSD therapy has been effective in helping some people quit drinking. However, it should be noted that no case was more effective than using long term talk therapy in treating alcoholism. Another unusual use of LSD in a clinical setting is dosing terminally ill patients with LSD so they can develop coping strategies to help them accept their inevitable deaths. "

Ayahuasca or yage, has been increasing in popularity for treatments from heroin addiction to trauma and has been described as "10 weeks of psychotherapy in one night." It wasn't in my paper, but MDMA is used in some therapist circles to help people with trauma and find coping mechanisms as well.

Count me in as one of the people that agrees that the roots of religion's origin is in the accidental, then ritualized, usage of psychotropics.

Itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Count me in as one of the people that agrees that
> the roots of religion's origin is in the
> accidental, then ritualized, usage of
> psychotropics.

Interesting. I don't think that I agree but I've read a bunch on the theory. Maybe the accidental use of psychotropics helped in our evolution? Psychotropics that might not exist anymore for a species we once were.

Religion in my opinion is primarily codification in an individual of the cultural need of expressing a purpose for adaption. It is especially useful when live altering events happen and we need to adapt to them. It provides a culturally reinforced mechanism for people to adapt to their changing selves, surroundings, and conditions and in the end it is the comfort of the aged and dying.

All the quasi-religious stuff is just a means to an end. Mormonism is only interested in your income and reproductive capacity.

And it has no shame, at least according to Elder "We don't apologize".

In all my years observing Mormonism I have noticed this "don't apologize" phenomenon.

I believe Mormonism culturally encourages an "indulgences" type of culture or being given a license to do harmful and narcissism motivated things as well as self gratifying things because of their status as believers and elect people. As long as you are Mormon you can repent but not apologize because you did it with Mormon intent. You can steal but there isn't a heavy focus on the justice of paying restitution. It requires a judge on earth to enforce ethical behaviors (bishop) and the highest leaders are lawyers in their heart of hearts.

Nothing is done without collusion, coercion, or their holy ghost insisting upon it.

and laughing as it builds overpriced malls and new Florida estate projects.

It was a scam from the beginning
It is now and ever shall be
Fraud without end,
Amen, Amen.

Be careful giving Evolution too much credit. It basically throws a bunch of stuff against the wall and sees what sticks. Then every once in a while an asteroid slams into the planet and wipes out millions of years of Evolution's handiwork.

Evolution is like those Buddhist monks making elaborate mandalas of colored sand, only to have somebody's two-year-old on a sugar rush crawl under the velvet rope and run over and kick the mandala to pieces in ten seconds.

Mormonism is a particularly heinous mandala. Perhaps a toddler will destroy it, or perhaps something less dramatic--somebody opens a door and a late afternoon breeze pours across the floor, scattering the sand in all directions.

getbusylivin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Be careful giving Evolution too much credit. It
> basically throws a bunch of stuff against the wall
> and sees what sticks.

That is precisely why it is beautiful to me. It simply explains why things stick in reality.

Dinosaurs stuck for awhile. Now I'm probably made from some of their stuff.

I understand your example of the mandala, but the purpose of it wasn't to last forever. Its about being in that moment.

getbusylivin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormonism is a particularly heinous mandala.
> Perhaps a toddler will destroy it, or perhaps
> something less dramatic--somebody opens a door and
> a late afternoon breeze pours across the floor,
> scattering the sand in all directions.

If I could only get it out of my cracks and crevices. It chafes.