Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
A poster named cog-dis wrote some thoughts on another thread that caught my eye re finding ‘truth’ after Mormonism. I think it’s largely in your approach. Somewhat like the question posed by brigidbarnes about how to explain our spiritual experiences in Mormonism, here:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1943930,1943930#msg-1943930
Without having read her thread yet, my answer to myself is: Rather than assuming/accepting that the ‘experience’ came from Mormonism I started thinking about why the ‘spiritual’ thing occurred, what it meant to me and why. This brought new ideas to the surface, such as the thought to even make inquiries rather than meekly accepting the seemingly obvious. I never automatically attributed good things to Mormonism (or any religion) and bad things to the world or Satan or my own shortcomings.
One example in Mormonism was a part of my PB that had a missionary literally falling out of my car after we discussed it, overcome with the awesomeness of what had seemingly occurred. Of course, a big part of it is your mindset at the time of the ‘blessing’ or ‘spiritual experience’. I had (amazingly) received permission from the MP to have two missionaries accompany me (an adult convert that had been hard to snag) to receive my PB by the local stake patriarch (SP). Two elders I was close to came with me in celebration of this huge milestone for me. One was from Arizona and one from Utah. They seemed more mature than others, more knowledgeable, with plenty of character and were lots of fun. We drove to another city to go to the patriarch’s home, making it all seem so special.
Here’s the scene:
1: I was expecting a spiritual experience. 2. I was ecstatic that the mishies had been allowed out of their Sunday cage for me. 3. I had never heard or read a PB before so it didn’t sound rote to me. 4. I liked many of the thoughts the patriarch included in my PB. It was non-standard, from what I’ve read since about PBs. 5. The big spiritual part of it was that he included my favourite Mormon scripture in my PB. (How could that happen without it coming directly from the lips of God Himself)?! (“Men are that they might have joy.”). That sounded like poetry to me at the time and in tune with my lifelong (naïve?) wish for the world.
The hands on the head thing by the patriarch seemed spiritual. Touch is often warm and welcome. I felt a tingle down my spine when he started to say the blessing, as there had been such a build-up to how he would directly channel “Father” (yow, that gives me the creeps now – I was never comfortable with how Mormons refer to God, but that’s a different story). When the patriarch uttered that scripture (not the usual type for a PB, I later gathered) I and the missionaries actually gasped. (I knew all the missionaries in the zone and beyond, and many of them knew my favourite Mormon scripture).
In the parking lot after, we were excitedly talking over the content of my blessing and the mishie I felt closest to sprawled out of the car in his zealous joy over it all. I couldn’t even drive away for a while as we exulted in this near miracle.
Even though I’d always leaned towards being religious, long before Mormonism entered my consciousness, thankfully I’d always had my feet in the world of science from a young age, specifically Medicine. I used the scientific method at work and have a natural zest for analysis in most situations, to a fault actually. After a while, for some of the reasons outlined below, I couldn’t just accept that the PB had actually been uttered by the patriarch as dictated directly by God, as they said.
To me, this is the crux of it: Don’t just accept. Be aware of your preconceptions. Look at it from all sides. Come up with every possible explanation and then examine each thoroughly. Hopefully, this will help to arrive at actual truth or at least reasonable, grounded possibilities.
When I received my PB in written form I noticed that some of the wording had been changed. I have a near-photographic memory for some things. A police officer I worked with said one time that I was an excellent witness after I reported a conversation. “She just stated that word-for-word”, he said (he had heard it too). I can remember things, especially if related to medicine. It mattered to me that the words were different (I know, obsessive). During the PB the patriarch had stumbled over some of his words, an adage where he just couldn’t get the wording right. He tried three times and then moved on. I could accept that he would change that in written form (which you receive at a later date). Changing other words, not so much.
I asked the stake missionaries (two brothers who were recent RMs) about the word changes. One of them called the patriarch who, shockingly to me, called and reamed me out for questioning God. Not my first clash with a Mormon. Not my last. Especially they don’t like you asking questions and they ascribe all kinds of dark motives to you if you do. The patriarch had obviously taken my question to be serious personal criticism of him, not meant that way at all. I found out that the patriarch’s wife transcribes the PB that he speaks, which was recorded. It was HER that changed the words, in effect editing my PB. I guess it makes sense that they want people to get cleaned up versions of the patriarch’s murmurings. But it really bugged me, a word nerd.
It kind of woke me up. Not just the word change but the SP’s nasty response.
It slowly dawned on me the SMs knew the patriarch (a family friend, maybe a relative even). I knew they had set up the meet. They also had previously asked me in a new members class (of which I was the only participant) which scriptures were meaningful to me and I had responded with the Joy one being my fave.
I eventually came to conclude that it was highly possible they had tipped off the patriarch and he had personalized my PB with my scripture of choice. I might not even have cared as much if they hadn’t yakked up the ‘truth’ that the PB was a life map given to me directly from God. Maybe there was a clue that it was weighted by Mormon doctrine as it included the instruction for me to marry and produce. I spent weeks asking myself why God would tell me to do that when it wasn’t my first choice for my next move (“and He should know that”, haha).
I came to feel that they had all manipulated me and not only did I feel angry but hurt and disappointed and sad. It bothered me for a long time that they had lied to my face like that. Again, unfortunately, not the first, not the last lie of Mormonism.
So, I deconstructed my PB and uncovered the truth about it (not just my opinion or something somebody else said; a conclusion based on preponderance of the evidence, a good benchmark. I don’t think the missionaries who accompanied me to the PB lied to me about the scripture. I think they honestly didn’t know. That the SMs would tell their pal the patriarch? Yeah, I believe that’s the explanation for this “spiritual experience” of mine.
If this was the only thing that I clung to in order to stick it out in Mormonism when I was so desperately miserable there, I’d have been in trouble. If my approach was that no matter what else happens I must stay due to my PB, I don’t know where I’d be today (maybe still in Mormon hell). For the record, I came to this conclusion about the PB quite soon afterwards, while I was still attending, not after I left, then in retrospect finding a reason to discount the PB.
This is my approach every time there is an apparent “spiritual experience”, mine or others such as visions people see. (I don’t usually question personal, private experiences, except to say it seems best to me to look at every side and see if there are alternative earth-grounded explanations). I think this works well too when it comes to forming conclusions and making decisions about anything, not just religion.
Back to cog-dis, who said the following (that I am applying to Mormonism or any other religion, in the context of obedience and unchecked devotion):
“The Q have trained members to respond to bigotry, and [to] leaders whom espouse bigotry, with acceptance and compliance.”
“The DN may as well have written, "Only the Q may tell you whom to hate and define your enemies." …. Exclusion, shunning, judgement, hate, push the buttons; the gears moved.”
Objective: “… discerning the "fake" of cult-like behavior.”
“You would do well to research some of the "anti" material you reject, as you have left yourself disarmed against those who keep up with both sides of the argument.”
Ask yourself:
”The only times that I defended anyone in toto, other than myself or my family, were when __________.”
”[Do] you … cling to the notion that "anti…" is an evil to be destroyed, not a difference to be explored?”
”Supporting any leader without criticism or question is not healthy. Period.”
(Disclaimer: I have taken statements by cog-dis that to me focus on questioning one’s views – religion or other areas – hopefully without inadvertently changing his meaning – I wanted to isolate their application to Mormonism/religion, leaving out the political discussion from the following thread. I didn’t cherry-pick or de-contexualize his words on purpose to try and bolster any premise):
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1943015,1943015#msg-1943015
Now I’m going to read brigidbarnes’ thread about spiritual experiences. Maybe somebody already wrote what I have concluded, in about 7 words or less...
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1943930,1943930#msg-1943930
Without having read her thread yet, my answer to myself is: Rather than assuming/accepting that the ‘experience’ came from Mormonism I started thinking about why the ‘spiritual’ thing occurred, what it meant to me and why. This brought new ideas to the surface, such as the thought to even make inquiries rather than meekly accepting the seemingly obvious. I never automatically attributed good things to Mormonism (or any religion) and bad things to the world or Satan or my own shortcomings.
One example in Mormonism was a part of my PB that had a missionary literally falling out of my car after we discussed it, overcome with the awesomeness of what had seemingly occurred. Of course, a big part of it is your mindset at the time of the ‘blessing’ or ‘spiritual experience’. I had (amazingly) received permission from the MP to have two missionaries accompany me (an adult convert that had been hard to snag) to receive my PB by the local stake patriarch (SP). Two elders I was close to came with me in celebration of this huge milestone for me. One was from Arizona and one from Utah. They seemed more mature than others, more knowledgeable, with plenty of character and were lots of fun. We drove to another city to go to the patriarch’s home, making it all seem so special.
Here’s the scene:
1: I was expecting a spiritual experience. 2. I was ecstatic that the mishies had been allowed out of their Sunday cage for me. 3. I had never heard or read a PB before so it didn’t sound rote to me. 4. I liked many of the thoughts the patriarch included in my PB. It was non-standard, from what I’ve read since about PBs. 5. The big spiritual part of it was that he included my favourite Mormon scripture in my PB. (How could that happen without it coming directly from the lips of God Himself)?! (“Men are that they might have joy.”). That sounded like poetry to me at the time and in tune with my lifelong (naïve?) wish for the world.
The hands on the head thing by the patriarch seemed spiritual. Touch is often warm and welcome. I felt a tingle down my spine when he started to say the blessing, as there had been such a build-up to how he would directly channel “Father” (yow, that gives me the creeps now – I was never comfortable with how Mormons refer to God, but that’s a different story). When the patriarch uttered that scripture (not the usual type for a PB, I later gathered) I and the missionaries actually gasped. (I knew all the missionaries in the zone and beyond, and many of them knew my favourite Mormon scripture).
In the parking lot after, we were excitedly talking over the content of my blessing and the mishie I felt closest to sprawled out of the car in his zealous joy over it all. I couldn’t even drive away for a while as we exulted in this near miracle.
Even though I’d always leaned towards being religious, long before Mormonism entered my consciousness, thankfully I’d always had my feet in the world of science from a young age, specifically Medicine. I used the scientific method at work and have a natural zest for analysis in most situations, to a fault actually. After a while, for some of the reasons outlined below, I couldn’t just accept that the PB had actually been uttered by the patriarch as dictated directly by God, as they said.
To me, this is the crux of it: Don’t just accept. Be aware of your preconceptions. Look at it from all sides. Come up with every possible explanation and then examine each thoroughly. Hopefully, this will help to arrive at actual truth or at least reasonable, grounded possibilities.
When I received my PB in written form I noticed that some of the wording had been changed. I have a near-photographic memory for some things. A police officer I worked with said one time that I was an excellent witness after I reported a conversation. “She just stated that word-for-word”, he said (he had heard it too). I can remember things, especially if related to medicine. It mattered to me that the words were different (I know, obsessive). During the PB the patriarch had stumbled over some of his words, an adage where he just couldn’t get the wording right. He tried three times and then moved on. I could accept that he would change that in written form (which you receive at a later date). Changing other words, not so much.
I asked the stake missionaries (two brothers who were recent RMs) about the word changes. One of them called the patriarch who, shockingly to me, called and reamed me out for questioning God. Not my first clash with a Mormon. Not my last. Especially they don’t like you asking questions and they ascribe all kinds of dark motives to you if you do. The patriarch had obviously taken my question to be serious personal criticism of him, not meant that way at all. I found out that the patriarch’s wife transcribes the PB that he speaks, which was recorded. It was HER that changed the words, in effect editing my PB. I guess it makes sense that they want people to get cleaned up versions of the patriarch’s murmurings. But it really bugged me, a word nerd.
It kind of woke me up. Not just the word change but the SP’s nasty response.
It slowly dawned on me the SMs knew the patriarch (a family friend, maybe a relative even). I knew they had set up the meet. They also had previously asked me in a new members class (of which I was the only participant) which scriptures were meaningful to me and I had responded with the Joy one being my fave.
I eventually came to conclude that it was highly possible they had tipped off the patriarch and he had personalized my PB with my scripture of choice. I might not even have cared as much if they hadn’t yakked up the ‘truth’ that the PB was a life map given to me directly from God. Maybe there was a clue that it was weighted by Mormon doctrine as it included the instruction for me to marry and produce. I spent weeks asking myself why God would tell me to do that when it wasn’t my first choice for my next move (“and He should know that”, haha).
I came to feel that they had all manipulated me and not only did I feel angry but hurt and disappointed and sad. It bothered me for a long time that they had lied to my face like that. Again, unfortunately, not the first, not the last lie of Mormonism.
So, I deconstructed my PB and uncovered the truth about it (not just my opinion or something somebody else said; a conclusion based on preponderance of the evidence, a good benchmark. I don’t think the missionaries who accompanied me to the PB lied to me about the scripture. I think they honestly didn’t know. That the SMs would tell their pal the patriarch? Yeah, I believe that’s the explanation for this “spiritual experience” of mine.
If this was the only thing that I clung to in order to stick it out in Mormonism when I was so desperately miserable there, I’d have been in trouble. If my approach was that no matter what else happens I must stay due to my PB, I don’t know where I’d be today (maybe still in Mormon hell). For the record, I came to this conclusion about the PB quite soon afterwards, while I was still attending, not after I left, then in retrospect finding a reason to discount the PB.
This is my approach every time there is an apparent “spiritual experience”, mine or others such as visions people see. (I don’t usually question personal, private experiences, except to say it seems best to me to look at every side and see if there are alternative earth-grounded explanations). I think this works well too when it comes to forming conclusions and making decisions about anything, not just religion.
Back to cog-dis, who said the following (that I am applying to Mormonism or any other religion, in the context of obedience and unchecked devotion):
“The Q have trained members to respond to bigotry, and [to] leaders whom espouse bigotry, with acceptance and compliance.”
“The DN may as well have written, "Only the Q may tell you whom to hate and define your enemies." …. Exclusion, shunning, judgement, hate, push the buttons; the gears moved.”
Objective: “… discerning the "fake" of cult-like behavior.”
“You would do well to research some of the "anti" material you reject, as you have left yourself disarmed against those who keep up with both sides of the argument.”
Ask yourself:
”The only times that I defended anyone in toto, other than myself or my family, were when __________.”
”[Do] you … cling to the notion that "anti…" is an evil to be destroyed, not a difference to be explored?”
”Supporting any leader without criticism or question is not healthy. Period.”
(Disclaimer: I have taken statements by cog-dis that to me focus on questioning one’s views – religion or other areas – hopefully without inadvertently changing his meaning – I wanted to isolate their application to Mormonism/religion, leaving out the political discussion from the following thread. I didn’t cherry-pick or de-contexualize his words on purpose to try and bolster any premise):
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1943015,1943015#msg-1943015
Now I’m going to read brigidbarnes’ thread about spiritual experiences. Maybe somebody already wrote what I have concluded, in about 7 words or less...
Another thought I had in reading it is that the men are that they might have joy verse is one of the most popular within Mormonism (it wouldn't surprise me if my PB also used the phrase at some point). That is, it could just have easily been a coincidence. If you had liked a more obscure verse of scripture, that might have been more telling.
That's a thought but wow, big coincidence if so. (Unless we had evidence that the percentage of PBs with that scripture was very high).
I guess I am leaning on the fact that the SMs had specifically asked me what my favourite scripture was and they were the very ones who arranged for me to go to the patriarch for the PB, who was a family friend or relative (I can't remember which now).
But I accept the wise counsel of a fellow RfMer who told me a while back that it could certainly be a coincidence and not a case where anybody lied, in that I will at least entertain the possibility. It certainly can't be proved, all these yrs later. And I said I could remember words well but not so much with the passage of time, or with minute details. Unless it happens to be your medical history. :)
I guess I am leaning on the fact that the SMs had specifically asked me what my favourite scripture was and they were the very ones who arranged for me to go to the patriarch for the PB, who was a family friend or relative (I can't remember which now).
But I accept the wise counsel of a fellow RfMer who told me a while back that it could certainly be a coincidence and not a case where anybody lied, in that I will at least entertain the possibility. It certainly can't be proved, all these yrs later. And I said I could remember words well but not so much with the passage of time, or with minute details. Unless it happens to be your medical history. :)
My PB, surprisingly at the time, said something about "remaining strong even if your family doesn't match up with god's plan for a while."
At the time, my mom & dad were just starting divorce proceedings, but it was a huge secret. We kids had been ordered not to tell anyone about it, and TBM mom was keeping it from even her best friends. I considered it "miraculous" that the stake patriarch "knew" from heavenly father what was about to happen.
Turns out, it wasn't so miraculous. I found out later that my parents' divorce had been at the insistence of the bishop, who essentially told my TBM mother that if she didn't divorce my inactive dad and find herself a worthy priesthood holder, she'd never make the celestial kingdom, and neither would her kids. I also found out that the bishop had discussed his "command" to my mother to divorce with his counselors, the RS president, and his own wife -- who was the daughter of the stake patriarch. And many years later, the bishop's wife admitted she had given a heads-up to the SP about the upcoming divorce, when she found out I was going for my PB, because she thought it was important that I hear something "encouraging" about that situation in my PB.
So, yeah...duped. The "faithful" mormons working behind the scenes to insure that I got something I would find "miraculous" in my PB. Like a cold-reading "psychic" searching the internet and checking out your facebook page to give what look like "miraculous" facts about you.
There are indeed things we can't explain in this universe -- thought not being able to explain them doesn't mean they're "miraculous" or "supernatural" or "spiritual." But with stuff like this, that isn't even the case...they're manufactured "miracles," intentional fraud meant to suck you in to the cult.
Glad you recognized that. :)
At the time, my mom & dad were just starting divorce proceedings, but it was a huge secret. We kids had been ordered not to tell anyone about it, and TBM mom was keeping it from even her best friends. I considered it "miraculous" that the stake patriarch "knew" from heavenly father what was about to happen.
Turns out, it wasn't so miraculous. I found out later that my parents' divorce had been at the insistence of the bishop, who essentially told my TBM mother that if she didn't divorce my inactive dad and find herself a worthy priesthood holder, she'd never make the celestial kingdom, and neither would her kids. I also found out that the bishop had discussed his "command" to my mother to divorce with his counselors, the RS president, and his own wife -- who was the daughter of the stake patriarch. And many years later, the bishop's wife admitted she had given a heads-up to the SP about the upcoming divorce, when she found out I was going for my PB, because she thought it was important that I hear something "encouraging" about that situation in my PB.
So, yeah...duped. The "faithful" mormons working behind the scenes to insure that I got something I would find "miraculous" in my PB. Like a cold-reading "psychic" searching the internet and checking out your facebook page to give what look like "miraculous" facts about you.
There are indeed things we can't explain in this universe -- thought not being able to explain them doesn't mean they're "miraculous" or "supernatural" or "spiritual." But with stuff like this, that isn't even the case...they're manufactured "miracles," intentional fraud meant to suck you in to the cult.
Glad you recognized that. :)
I'm not a mormon, so I've never had a PB...and I really don't care for PB&Js, either; but that's beside the point.
My wife has always marveled at her PB and how well it fit her: it's almost as though the stake patriarch had a divine revelation about her. She had me read it once, and the only thought that went through my mind was that I could have written it after my first conversation with her when we were dating. The joke with her is that she would walk up to a stranger and say, "I'd like to share my life story with you. Have you got a minute?" That's a bit of hyperbole, but not by much.
The point is, my wife's PB, as it was written, would not have required revelation; just a short, casual conversation with her or somebody else who may have talked with her once.
My wife has always marveled at her PB and how well it fit her: it's almost as though the stake patriarch had a divine revelation about her. She had me read it once, and the only thought that went through my mind was that I could have written it after my first conversation with her when we were dating. The joke with her is that she would walk up to a stranger and say, "I'd like to share my life story with you. Have you got a minute?" That's a bit of hyperbole, but not by much.
The point is, my wife's PB, as it was written, would not have required revelation; just a short, casual conversation with her or somebody else who may have talked with her once.
I had my PB when I turned 12.
It was tailored to me. The patriarch did interview me prior to giving me my blessing, which is how he perhaps came to know me as well as he did in a short time.
Regardless, that PB got me through my parents ugly divorce several years later, and a turbulent adolescence.
It brought me some comfort when my world turned upside down.
If I'd have waited until was a little bit older to have gotten mine, I'd have more likely than not. I begged my parents to let me get mine when I turned 12. So went with my older bro, who'd just turned 16. We had ours on the same day.
It was tailored to me. The patriarch did interview me prior to giving me my blessing, which is how he perhaps came to know me as well as he did in a short time.
Regardless, that PB got me through my parents ugly divorce several years later, and a turbulent adolescence.
It brought me some comfort when my world turned upside down.
If I'd have waited until was a little bit older to have gotten mine, I'd have more likely than not. I begged my parents to let me get mine when I turned 12. So went with my older bro, who'd just turned 16. We had ours on the same day.