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Always in opposition to civil rights.
On this point, I respectfully disagree.
In this case, you have several sets of "civil rights" to take into account.
You are taking only one player's "civil rights" into account, that is, the right of the transgendered individual to go into the bathroom that they self-identify with.
I understand where you are coming from, but this is one issue where we need to be looking at the "civil rights" of ALL significant players.
Many individuals (especially females) are not comfortable sharing a public restroom with male strangers. Not even if these individuals who look male actually self-identify as female.
This is particularly true of young girls who have (or continue to be) victims of rape or other forms of sexual abuse.
Transgendered individuals are generally NOT rapists or sexual predators. Let me say that on the front end, as it is true. Very few of them are a danger to others.
But let me point out to you that potential rapists and sexual predators walk the halls of our schools, public buildings and even church meetinghouses everyday.
And whereas the transgendered individual may not be a threat to another person using the bathroom at the same time, the same cannot be said of potential child rapists or sexual predators. These perverted a-holes take advantage of anything and everything they can in order to violate another.
Just as soon as you start letting the transgendered use the other bathroom, you are going to have rapists and other sexual predators feigning "transgendered" status, so that they can go into the girls restroom to watch the girls from under the stalls, or even to rape them.
Are you familiar with the rape and murder of 7 year old Sherice Iverson in a Nevada casino bathroom in 1999? Jeremy Strohmeyer brutally raped and killed her, after following her into the female restroom. Right now, rape/murders of this sort are rare. But I fear they will become much more common if the transgendered are allowed to use the "opposite" sex's bathroom.
The needs of other children -- other than the transgendered -- needs to be taken into account here.
It just isn't as simple as arguing that the transgendered have civil rights, and should be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice.
In this case, you have several sets of "civil rights" to take into account.
You are taking only one player's "civil rights" into account, that is, the right of the transgendered individual to go into the bathroom that they self-identify with.
I understand where you are coming from, but this is one issue where we need to be looking at the "civil rights" of ALL significant players.
Many individuals (especially females) are not comfortable sharing a public restroom with male strangers. Not even if these individuals who look male actually self-identify as female.
This is particularly true of young girls who have (or continue to be) victims of rape or other forms of sexual abuse.
Transgendered individuals are generally NOT rapists or sexual predators. Let me say that on the front end, as it is true. Very few of them are a danger to others.
But let me point out to you that potential rapists and sexual predators walk the halls of our schools, public buildings and even church meetinghouses everyday.
And whereas the transgendered individual may not be a threat to another person using the bathroom at the same time, the same cannot be said of potential child rapists or sexual predators. These perverted a-holes take advantage of anything and everything they can in order to violate another.
Just as soon as you start letting the transgendered use the other bathroom, you are going to have rapists and other sexual predators feigning "transgendered" status, so that they can go into the girls restroom to watch the girls from under the stalls, or even to rape them.
Are you familiar with the rape and murder of 7 year old Sherice Iverson in a Nevada casino bathroom in 1999? Jeremy Strohmeyer brutally raped and killed her, after following her into the female restroom. Right now, rape/murders of this sort are rare. But I fear they will become much more common if the transgendered are allowed to use the "opposite" sex's bathroom.
The needs of other children -- other than the transgendered -- needs to be taken into account here.
It just isn't as simple as arguing that the transgendered have civil rights, and should be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice.
This is not an issue of religious freedom.
This is a public safety issue. See my post above.
This is a public safety issue. See my post above.
Instead, they are the ones who are attacked.
It's discrimination, not public safety.
The proof of this are the repeated refusals by proponents of such legislation to allow any medical recommendations and exceptions.
https://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms#.M2vmlGN3u
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2017 09:24PM by anybody.
It's discrimination, not public safety.
The proof of this are the repeated refusals by proponents of such legislation to allow any medical recommendations and exceptions.
https://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms#.M2vmlGN3u
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2017 09:24PM by anybody.
Yes, unfortunately, transgendered children are attacked.
But allowing them (and potential rapists/sexual predators who are not transgendered, but use that loophole to get into the girls bathroom) to use the bathroom of the other sex is NOT going to prevent one single attack of a transgendered child.
Yet it probably WILL prevent the attack of many young girls, by sexual predators who take advantage of the leeway given to the transgendered for their own perverted desires.
But allowing them (and potential rapists/sexual predators who are not transgendered, but use that loophole to get into the girls bathroom) to use the bathroom of the other sex is NOT going to prevent one single attack of a transgendered child.
Yet it probably WILL prevent the attack of many young girls, by sexual predators who take advantage of the leeway given to the transgendered for their own perverted desires.
I agree. Safety is more important than civil rights. And keeping little girls safe is more important than pleasing a bunch of men who should know better. What will 2016 be known for? The year of the transgender parade. I think our culture is headed downhill.
Buck Angel's Trans Bathroom PSA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSO_Q2GtoHw
Most sexual predators are overwhelmingly cisgendered heterosexual males and they usually know and groom their victims. Attacks by unknown assailants are rare.
Trans women (and especially trans women of colour) are killed at rate much higher than the general population.
You are entitled to your opinion but base your opinion on fact and not bigoted assumptions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 08:58PM by anybody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSO_Q2GtoHw
Most sexual predators are overwhelmingly cisgendered heterosexual males and they usually know and groom their victims. Attacks by unknown assailants are rare.
Trans women (and especially trans women of colour) are killed at rate much higher than the general population.
You are entitled to your opinion but base your opinion on fact and not bigoted assumptions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 08:58PM by anybody.
Did you bother to read ALL of my post?
I said, very plainly, that most transgendered individuals are NOT -- I repeat -- NOT a danger to others .
Go back and read that post again, before you post a comment like this!
The transgendered children are not the problem here!
It is the perverts -- most of them straight, BTW -- the ones who are always looking for an opportunity to prey on others.
These folks will not be able to resist the opportunity to go prowling in the girls bathroom for lone, vulnerable girls that they can attack. Right now, a man entering a female bathroom is taboo enough that most of them will keep out. They are afraid of what will happen (arrest, probably) if they go in there, so they find other places to attack vulnerable girls.
Jeremy Strohmeyer - when he attacked and killed 7 year old Sherice Iverson in 1999 - is a rare exception to this. He went into the female restroom anyway, as he had been viewing child porn on his computer, and wanted to "get some."
But most of the time, social convention has kept these perverts from prowling the girls restrooms for victims.
But if the transgendered begin to use girls restrooms in large numbers, the STRAIGHT perverts will begin to do so TOO -- probably claiming that they are transgendered when they are NOT -- so that they can rape, fondle or stalk vulnerable little girls in a place that is no longer safe for them.
Unfortunately, that is the way of the world today.
The transgendered have rights.
But so do other, non-transgendered children -- especially vulnerable girls, who should be able to go into a female restroom without fear of a sexual pervert (most likely a STRAIGHT guy) coming in to prey on them.
And the sad reality is that IF the transgendered are allowed to cross bathrooms, the sexual predators will take advantage of the situation. Just because they figure they can get away with it.
This is why I say, this is a PUBLIC SAFETY issue.
NOT a civil rights issue.
And most certainly NOT a "religious freedom" issue.
I said, very plainly, that most transgendered individuals are NOT -- I repeat -- NOT a danger to others .
Go back and read that post again, before you post a comment like this!
The transgendered children are not the problem here!
It is the perverts -- most of them straight, BTW -- the ones who are always looking for an opportunity to prey on others.
These folks will not be able to resist the opportunity to go prowling in the girls bathroom for lone, vulnerable girls that they can attack. Right now, a man entering a female bathroom is taboo enough that most of them will keep out. They are afraid of what will happen (arrest, probably) if they go in there, so they find other places to attack vulnerable girls.
Jeremy Strohmeyer - when he attacked and killed 7 year old Sherice Iverson in 1999 - is a rare exception to this. He went into the female restroom anyway, as he had been viewing child porn on his computer, and wanted to "get some."
But most of the time, social convention has kept these perverts from prowling the girls restrooms for victims.
But if the transgendered begin to use girls restrooms in large numbers, the STRAIGHT perverts will begin to do so TOO -- probably claiming that they are transgendered when they are NOT -- so that they can rape, fondle or stalk vulnerable little girls in a place that is no longer safe for them.
Unfortunately, that is the way of the world today.
The transgendered have rights.
But so do other, non-transgendered children -- especially vulnerable girls, who should be able to go into a female restroom without fear of a sexual pervert (most likely a STRAIGHT guy) coming in to prey on them.
And the sad reality is that IF the transgendered are allowed to cross bathrooms, the sexual predators will take advantage of the situation. Just because they figure they can get away with it.
This is why I say, this is a PUBLIC SAFETY issue.
NOT a civil rights issue.
And most certainly NOT a "religious freedom" issue.
BTW, the placement of my response doesn't make it clear -- my comments above are directed at the poster who calls him/herself "anybody," as "anybody" made a statement in his/her post that claimed that I was arguing that transgendered children would be attacking others in the bathroom.
I did not, and I wanted to make that clear.
I did not, and I wanted to make that clear.
Seems to me that if a person is intent on raping someone, a law dictating which restroom they are to use will not stop them. Moreover, transgendered people have always been using restrooms they identify with. The vast majority of people who use public restrooms simply want to relieve themselves.
I live in Europe and it's not uncommon to run across unisex bathrooms. Of course, it's also not uncommon for restrooms to be attended by Klofraus, who make you pay for the privilege of peeing.
There's even a spa I go to where everyone uses the same locker room. They have stalls that you change your clothes in, so everyone has privacy. As a matter of fact, it's not uncommon to run across nude spas in Europe, where no one wears clothing. Friedrichsbad in Baden-Baden is a good example-- and a place I'd love to visit sometime.
I really think people are getting too up in arms over this issue. Perverts are going to do what they're going to do, whether or not there's a law about public restrooms. Even if there was a law, do you really think a person intent on raping someone is going to be stopped by it? Are they really going to say to themselves before they enter the "wrong" restroom, "Jeez... well, I was going to molest that little girl, but I better not, because there's a law about men entering the women's restroom." I think not. And by the time someone calls the law on a perpetrator, the deed will have already been done anyway.
I live in Europe and it's not uncommon to run across unisex bathrooms. Of course, it's also not uncommon for restrooms to be attended by Klofraus, who make you pay for the privilege of peeing.
There's even a spa I go to where everyone uses the same locker room. They have stalls that you change your clothes in, so everyone has privacy. As a matter of fact, it's not uncommon to run across nude spas in Europe, where no one wears clothing. Friedrichsbad in Baden-Baden is a good example-- and a place I'd love to visit sometime.
I really think people are getting too up in arms over this issue. Perverts are going to do what they're going to do, whether or not there's a law about public restrooms. Even if there was a law, do you really think a person intent on raping someone is going to be stopped by it? Are they really going to say to themselves before they enter the "wrong" restroom, "Jeez... well, I was going to molest that little girl, but I better not, because there's a law about men entering the women's restroom." I think not. And by the time someone calls the law on a perpetrator, the deed will have already been done anyway.
Poopstone:
Fuck off, you bigoted dumbass. I can't remember the last time you posted something that wasn't grossly intolerant and hateful.
And southern Exmo, your fears ares unfounded, as their is no evidence that girls are at a higher risk of being raped or assaulted in bathrooms. Arguments from Fear making no sense, especially if you only cited one example, while tragic, that took place almost 18 years ago. It does not represent a trend or a statistic. In fact it represents the opposite- a fluctuation in normal trends. Like others have said, random attacks of this nature are very rare- so rare, they don't warrant undermining legislation to accommodate the transgenders community. Children who are assaulted almost always know the people who assault them. Random perverts attempting to troll for children jn bathroom stalls is one of those myths that are perpetrated by religious nutjobs and other people as an excuse to try and prevent people who identify as a gender that is not of their birth from using the bathroom they prefer.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 12:35AM by midwestanon.
Fuck off, you bigoted dumbass. I can't remember the last time you posted something that wasn't grossly intolerant and hateful.
And southern Exmo, your fears ares unfounded, as their is no evidence that girls are at a higher risk of being raped or assaulted in bathrooms. Arguments from Fear making no sense, especially if you only cited one example, while tragic, that took place almost 18 years ago. It does not represent a trend or a statistic. In fact it represents the opposite- a fluctuation in normal trends. Like others have said, random attacks of this nature are very rare- so rare, they don't warrant undermining legislation to accommodate the transgenders community. Children who are assaulted almost always know the people who assault them. Random perverts attempting to troll for children jn bathroom stalls is one of those myths that are perpetrated by religious nutjobs and other people as an excuse to try and prevent people who identify as a gender that is not of their birth from using the bathroom they prefer.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 12:35AM by midwestanon.
Perhaps the reason that such attacks inside the restroom are so rare is that -- even now -- a man inside a female restroom causes so much suspicion that men STILL dare not go in the female restrooms, at least in the part of the country where I live.
But that is not likely to continue, if transgendered begin to use female restrooms. There WILL come a point - once there is enough foot traffic going into the female restrooms that people begin to let their guard down -- when the stalking and the attacks WILL begin.
And how will you stop it THEN?
Your best chance of stopping it is to stop it RIGHT NOW, BEFORE people get used to otherwise male individuals inside the female restrooms.
But that is not likely to continue, if transgendered begin to use female restrooms. There WILL come a point - once there is enough foot traffic going into the female restrooms that people begin to let their guard down -- when the stalking and the attacks WILL begin.
And how will you stop it THEN?
Your best chance of stopping it is to stop it RIGHT NOW, BEFORE people get used to otherwise male individuals inside the female restrooms.
There is one other point that is not being given due consideration here.
That is the GENUINE FEAR that girls/women who have been the victim of rape or other forms of sexual violence will have, when THEY SEE men in the bathrooms -- regardless of what the men are doing.
These men could be minding their own business - not doing anything at all that could be considered dangerous or a form of inpropriety -- and they STILL will create a REAL and GENUINE FEAR among many children who have been raped or the victim of other forms of sexual violence.
And believe me, there are large numbers of these children in our schools and our public buildings. More than we want to believe exist.
These children need a safe zone, for psychological reasons.
You can argue that this is no different than the need that transgendered children have of being able to use the bathroom of the gender they self-identify with for psychological reasons.
I would accept that, as it is a valid point.
And it is one reason why I bring up the very real issue of the danger that true rapists, pediphiles, and other sexual predators pose, if this bathroom legislation is allowed to continue.
IF you are going to use the psychological needs of the transgendered child as an argument for allowing them to use the restroom of the opposite sex, then others have every right to counter your argument by pointing out the psychological need of the child who is a victim of rape or sexual violence to have the bathroom remain a safe zone for them.
That is the GENUINE FEAR that girls/women who have been the victim of rape or other forms of sexual violence will have, when THEY SEE men in the bathrooms -- regardless of what the men are doing.
These men could be minding their own business - not doing anything at all that could be considered dangerous or a form of inpropriety -- and they STILL will create a REAL and GENUINE FEAR among many children who have been raped or the victim of other forms of sexual violence.
And believe me, there are large numbers of these children in our schools and our public buildings. More than we want to believe exist.
These children need a safe zone, for psychological reasons.
You can argue that this is no different than the need that transgendered children have of being able to use the bathroom of the gender they self-identify with for psychological reasons.
I would accept that, as it is a valid point.
And it is one reason why I bring up the very real issue of the danger that true rapists, pediphiles, and other sexual predators pose, if this bathroom legislation is allowed to continue.
IF you are going to use the psychological needs of the transgendered child as an argument for allowing them to use the restroom of the opposite sex, then others have every right to counter your argument by pointing out the psychological need of the child who is a victim of rape or sexual violence to have the bathroom remain a safe zone for them.
It's impossible to have a logical discussion with someone who doesn't even understand the basics of the situation. You still don't get it.
Your bias prevents that. Do some more research then come back.
Kids in middle and high school now don't worry about a person's status now -- even in the Bible Belt South.
A British officer who can "always spot Jews from a mile away" from "Exodus" (1960)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3FtzmvAiMc
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 05:19PM by anybody.
Your bias prevents that. Do some more research then come back.
Kids in middle and high school now don't worry about a person's status now -- even in the Bible Belt South.
A British officer who can "always spot Jews from a mile away" from "Exodus" (1960)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3FtzmvAiMc
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 05:19PM by anybody.
Actually, anybody, I **DO** understand the issues here.
I understand enough to know that far more parties have a stake in this specific controversy than just those who are transgendered.
And - unlike you - I'm trying to take ALL parties needs into account.
Not just those who are transgendered.
I understand enough to know that far more parties have a stake in this specific controversy than just those who are transgendered.
And - unlike you - I'm trying to take ALL parties needs into account.
Not just those who are transgendered.
it's just discrimination.
And it's sick and disgusting to hear people make up imaginary threats to try and legislate people they don't like out of existence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 08:39PM by anybody.
And it's sick and disgusting to hear people make up imaginary threats to try and legislate people they don't like out of existence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 08:39PM by anybody.
You do realise that neither trans men or trans women wear clothing of the opposite biological sex for erotic purposes?
I'm done trying to argue with fools for tonight. I have better things to do.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 01:39AM by anybody.
I'm done trying to argue with fools for tonight. I have better things to do.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 01:39AM by anybody.
I disagree. You don't have a right to be free from discomfort, female or otherwise. During the civil rights movement and integration, there were a lot of white people uncomfortable with opening up their restrooms to black people. Doing what's right isn't always going to be comfortable.
"The needs of other children -- other than the transgendered -- needs to be taken into account here."
Finally...someone else who gets it.
I would change your comment to:
The needs of ALL children -- not just than the transgendered -- needs to be taken into account here.
US Civil rights accommodate e.v.e.r.y.o.n.e..Not just a small group that doesn't feel good about themselves (collectively when going to the bathroom)
Transgendered people already have the right to use public restrooms. If they have an outie, then door #1. If they have an innie, door #2. They already can go..along side a black person, a Mexican, an asian...the list goes on.
*IF* their self esteem is such that using the correct public restroom (as listed now- Men or Women) is THAT much of an issue or a burden for them, then best to go at home.
Now...If I have to take a dump in a public restroom with women in their, can I ?? Yes. no problem. Some women have a hard enough time with just other women in the public restroom, let alone having cross -dressing dudes identifying as women...on that particular day.
If stores like Target, Walmart, etc want to add to the cost of their stores by paying to ADD another bathrrom to their stores..fine..but those costs will be passed on to the customers..
Finally...someone else who gets it.
I would change your comment to:
The needs of ALL children -- not just than the transgendered -- needs to be taken into account here.
US Civil rights accommodate e.v.e.r.y.o.n.e..Not just a small group that doesn't feel good about themselves (collectively when going to the bathroom)
Transgendered people already have the right to use public restrooms. If they have an outie, then door #1. If they have an innie, door #2. They already can go..along side a black person, a Mexican, an asian...the list goes on.
*IF* their self esteem is such that using the correct public restroom (as listed now- Men or Women) is THAT much of an issue or a burden for them, then best to go at home.
Now...If I have to take a dump in a public restroom with women in their, can I ?? Yes. no problem. Some women have a hard enough time with just other women in the public restroom, let alone having cross -dressing dudes identifying as women...on that particular day.
If stores like Target, Walmart, etc want to add to the cost of their stores by paying to ADD another bathrrom to their stores..fine..but those costs will be passed on to the customers..
This girl peed on herself in the hall because teachers didn't know where they could allow her to relieve herself.
http://cw39.com/2016/08/22/transgender-girl-in-center-of-school-bathroom-controversy-has-great-1st-day-of-kindergarten/
Think for a moment. How would you enforce this? How could you tell? Potty police would make airports and sporting events impossible to attend. There are already laws against lewd behaviour and sexual assault.
Would you go to a restroom where you are likely to be ridiculed and assaulted? The real intent of these laws is to force trans people underground and not go out in public. It's an end run around outright discrimination.
Discrimination is wrong. You can't excuse it. It's just wrong.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 07:05PM by anybody.
http://cw39.com/2016/08/22/transgender-girl-in-center-of-school-bathroom-controversy-has-great-1st-day-of-kindergarten/
Think for a moment. How would you enforce this? How could you tell? Potty police would make airports and sporting events impossible to attend. There are already laws against lewd behaviour and sexual assault.
Would you go to a restroom where you are likely to be ridiculed and assaulted? The real intent of these laws is to force trans people underground and not go out in public. It's an end run around outright discrimination.
Discrimination is wrong. You can't excuse it. It's just wrong.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 07:05PM by anybody.
I'm afraid that you are so concerned about the (legitimate) needs of the transgendered that you are unable to see the (equally legitimate) needs of other individuals.
The issue is "popular discomfort."
Here's a commonly expressed sentiment:
"If some girl gets a buzz cut and puts a sock down her pants and wants to pretend she's a guy, so what. But I don't want my wife or daughter to have to see some man in a dress pretending they are a woman."
Again, HOW WOULD YOU EVEN KNOW?
The problem here is the rejection of the concept of having a sexual identity that does not correspond with biological sex. In other words, fear of something you don't really understand.
I've been stalked and flashed and sexually harassed and I can tell you from my own experience men do these things on impulse and they aren't going to go to the trouble of trying to pretend to be female to do it. It's happened to me in malls, parking lots, in cars at traffic intersections and even in the workplace.
If ANYONE goes into a locker room or public restroom and starts molesting someone or engages in lewd behaviour that person would be committing a sexual offence which is ALREADY ILLEGAL.
Remember how blacks were said to be dirty sex mad brutes and decent white women coudn't be safe around them? It's the same thing. That kind of discrimination was also justified religiously.
Jan Morris and Christine Jorgenson were news over sixty years ago. You or someone you know has probably shared a restroom with a trans person and you didn't even realise it. This wasn't even an issue until (a) marriage equality became the law of the land and the religious right needed a new bête noir and (b) Caitlyn Jenner.
Again, the real intent of these bathroom laws is aimed at popular discomfort, not public safety. The goal is to make life difficult for trans people to force them out of the workplace and public life so they are not seen nor heard -- just like the the 1960s.
I only see bigotry and discrimination behind these laws.
Sorry.
This is a medical matter and not some kind of loony left politically correct attempt at rearranging the Universe. I want you to listen, read and think. Once people begin to understand and realise what's going on so-called "popular discomfort" goes away.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 03:11AM by anybody.
Here's a commonly expressed sentiment:
"If some girl gets a buzz cut and puts a sock down her pants and wants to pretend she's a guy, so what. But I don't want my wife or daughter to have to see some man in a dress pretending they are a woman."
Again, HOW WOULD YOU EVEN KNOW?
The problem here is the rejection of the concept of having a sexual identity that does not correspond with biological sex. In other words, fear of something you don't really understand.
I've been stalked and flashed and sexually harassed and I can tell you from my own experience men do these things on impulse and they aren't going to go to the trouble of trying to pretend to be female to do it. It's happened to me in malls, parking lots, in cars at traffic intersections and even in the workplace.
If ANYONE goes into a locker room or public restroom and starts molesting someone or engages in lewd behaviour that person would be committing a sexual offence which is ALREADY ILLEGAL.
Remember how blacks were said to be dirty sex mad brutes and decent white women coudn't be safe around them? It's the same thing. That kind of discrimination was also justified religiously.
Jan Morris and Christine Jorgenson were news over sixty years ago. You or someone you know has probably shared a restroom with a trans person and you didn't even realise it. This wasn't even an issue until (a) marriage equality became the law of the land and the religious right needed a new bête noir and (b) Caitlyn Jenner.
Again, the real intent of these bathroom laws is aimed at popular discomfort, not public safety. The goal is to make life difficult for trans people to force them out of the workplace and public life so they are not seen nor heard -- just like the the 1960s.
I only see bigotry and discrimination behind these laws.
Sorry.
This is a medical matter and not some kind of loony left politically correct attempt at rearranging the Universe. I want you to listen, read and think. Once people begin to understand and realise what's going on so-called "popular discomfort" goes away.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 03:11AM by anybody.
You bring up several interesting perspectives in this post, anybody, so I have copied it verbatim, and include it here. Interspersed within, you will find my comments.
"The issue is "popular discomfort."
....
"If some girl gets a buzz cut and puts a sock down her pants and wants to pretend she's a guy, so what. But I don't want my wife or daughter to have to see some man in a dress pretending they are a woman."
... HOW WOULD YOU EVEN KNOW?
The problem here is the rejection of the concept of having a sexual identity that does not correspond with biological sex. In other words, fear of something you don't really understand."
Actually, if a transgendered person has been using the bathroom of the opposite sex, and is doing it discretely without bringing notice to themselves, then you are right -- I would not know.
FYI, I am NOT from the Morgdom, like most posters here. I was born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. Most of my family still lives in New Orleans. I go back often, as my heart still resides in New Orleans, even if the rest of my body lives elsewhere.
We have a large and highly visible transgendered community in New Orleans. Transgendered individuals have been "out of the closet" in New Orleans since at least 1958, when they established the first of many Mardi Gras organizations whose festivities they opened up to the general public. That one event seemed to open up the New Orleans transgendered community to the entire world at a time when nobody talked about such things, or even acknowledged their existance.
Since New Orleans culture evolves around Mardi Gras, and the homosexual and transgendered communities have always thrown the best Mardi Gras balls and parades around (that gains a group a huge amount of respect in the New Orleans community, regardless of a group's sexual orientation or self-identity), they were able to use this as a "beachhead" to establish themselves as respectable individuals in the greater New Orleans society outside of Mardi Gras -- to everybody's betterment.
So much so that my husband and I stayed several extra days after I ran the New Orleans Marathon a few weeks back, so we could attend the Krewe de Kinque Mardi Gras ball, which you will be interested to know, anybody, raises money for the Transgendered Law Center.
I have been around "out of the closet" transgendered for most of my life. They respect me and my lifestyle, and I respect theirs.
In addition, I'm a Red Cross Disaster Services volunteer and a ham radio operator trained to pass radio traffic in a natural or man made disaster. One of the best radio operators in the mid-south (an active member of the Air Force Military Affiliated Radio Service, whose call sign was AFA4ZH) used to be an openly transgendered individual. Unfortunately, she died of a heart attack about 10 years ago. But she taught me (and alot of other radio operators in the mid-south) most of what I know about passing emergency radio traffic in disaster situations, in the years before her passing. If I am able to make a difference with my radio skills in a future disaster, it will be in great part because this great individual - who was born male but self-identified as female - took her time to work with me, and teach me what she knew.
Just thought you should know that. It's hard for folks to know a person's background, when they are communicating by internet. I only relay this because I think it is important at this point for you to realize that I am not "the enemy." I have a great respect for members of the transgendered community, both in the New Orleans area and elsewhere as well.
So, is it possible that I've used the ladies restroom at the same time that a transgendered person has?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact. This is because I used the restroom at an Air Force MARS convention that both me and "Zulu Hotel" both attended. She used the same public restroom during convention breaks that I did, and at the same time. It really wasn't a big deal. I think we might have used the restroom at the local Red Cross chapter at the same time, too, but I'm not sure about that.
A key point here is that she was dressed like a female, and looked like one, so I would never have known she was transgendered if I hadn't known 'Zulu Hotel" personally.
A big part of the problem with the transgendered law, IMHO, is that it allows ALL individuals who call themselves transgendered to use restrooms of the opposite sex -- not just those who really look the part.
This means that in the next few years, you could have individuals who look and act like men using the female restrooms at schools, churches, etc. Some of these will be genuine transgendered individuals. Others could very likely be straight men or pedophiles taking advantage of the situation for their own pleasure.
But even if the person in the restroom really is just a transgendered individual - an no threat to anybody - he/she could still scare the tar out of a young girl who has been the victim of rape or sexual assault.
And meantime, once individuals who look like men begin to come into female restrooms in large enough numbers so as not to stand out -- at that point -- whether you want to acknowledge it or not -- you are going to start having problems with other men taking advantage of the situation to go into the female restrooms themselves. Maybe they're looking for some child to rape. Maybe they just like stalking or scaring little girls. But they will be there -- the moment that the presence of males in the female restroom becomes common place enough for them to slip underneath the radar.
"I've been stalked and flashed and sexually harassed and I can tell you from my own experience men do these things on impulse and they aren't going to go to the trouble of trying to pretend to be female to do it. It's happened to me in malls, parking lots, in cars at traffic intersections and even in the workplace."
I'm sure that is true for some perverts. Not so true for others.
"If ANYONE goes into a locker room or public restroom and starts molesting someone or engages in lewd behaviour that person would be committing a sexual offence which is ALREADY ILLEGAL."
This is true.
But men (and occasionally females as well) often act upon impulse (as you already acknowledged). Its sort of like -- most people will not go out of their way to steal money, but if they happen to see an unattended wallet in a secluded place when noone else is around to see what happens -- how many people will take advantage of the situation and help themselves to any cash that might be in that unattended wallet?
"Remember how blacks were said to be dirty sex mad brutes and decent white women coudn't be safe around them? It's the same thing. That kind of discrimination was also justified religiously."
IF this were truly an issue that ONLY involved prejudice against transsexuals, than your point would be valid.
HOWEVER, alot of individuals who are NOT prejudiced against transsexuals are also against a law that wholesale allows transsexuals to "cross" restrooms. I consider myself to be among these.
There are issues of public safety that are also involved, anybody, as I have already pointed out in several other posts on this thread.
".... Again, the real intent of these bathroom laws is aimed at popular discomfort, not public safety. The goal is to make life difficult for trans people to force them out of the workplace and public life so they are not seen nor heard -- just like the the 1960s."
Honestly, I do not believe this to be the case, anybody.
"I only see bigotry and discrimination behind these laws.
Sorry."
Yes, I agree -- you do see only this limited perspective when you address this issue.
I've tried my best to help you to understand that -- at least in this one issue -- there is more here than just the rights of transgendered to be considered.
I don't think I've been very successful, though.
Perhaps at this point, it would be best for the two of us to just amicably agree to disagree.
After all, you DO have a right to your opinion. Just as I have a right to mine.
:)
"This is a medical matter...."
Transgenderism is a medical matter.
Where they use the restroom is a social, not a medical issue.
" I want you to listen, read and think. Once people begin to understand and realise what's going on so-called "popular discomfort" goes away."
Honestly, I do believe I'm listening to you, anybody.
Your sincere concern for the needs of the transgendered is something I wish more people have.
I have no more use for the opinions or bigotry of those who cannot tolerate the personal choices of the transgendered than you have, anybody.
I just think -- in this particular, isolated case -- that the bathroom issue is more of a public safety issue, than it is a civil rights issue (even though both elements are involved here).
I tell you what - I'm going to cut it off at this point.
You know where I stand, and I know where you stand.
And I DO respect your perspective, anybody.
So, I'll respect your right to disagree with me on this issue.
"The issue is "popular discomfort."
....
"If some girl gets a buzz cut and puts a sock down her pants and wants to pretend she's a guy, so what. But I don't want my wife or daughter to have to see some man in a dress pretending they are a woman."
... HOW WOULD YOU EVEN KNOW?
The problem here is the rejection of the concept of having a sexual identity that does not correspond with biological sex. In other words, fear of something you don't really understand."
Actually, if a transgendered person has been using the bathroom of the opposite sex, and is doing it discretely without bringing notice to themselves, then you are right -- I would not know.
FYI, I am NOT from the Morgdom, like most posters here. I was born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. Most of my family still lives in New Orleans. I go back often, as my heart still resides in New Orleans, even if the rest of my body lives elsewhere.
We have a large and highly visible transgendered community in New Orleans. Transgendered individuals have been "out of the closet" in New Orleans since at least 1958, when they established the first of many Mardi Gras organizations whose festivities they opened up to the general public. That one event seemed to open up the New Orleans transgendered community to the entire world at a time when nobody talked about such things, or even acknowledged their existance.
Since New Orleans culture evolves around Mardi Gras, and the homosexual and transgendered communities have always thrown the best Mardi Gras balls and parades around (that gains a group a huge amount of respect in the New Orleans community, regardless of a group's sexual orientation or self-identity), they were able to use this as a "beachhead" to establish themselves as respectable individuals in the greater New Orleans society outside of Mardi Gras -- to everybody's betterment.
So much so that my husband and I stayed several extra days after I ran the New Orleans Marathon a few weeks back, so we could attend the Krewe de Kinque Mardi Gras ball, which you will be interested to know, anybody, raises money for the Transgendered Law Center.
I have been around "out of the closet" transgendered for most of my life. They respect me and my lifestyle, and I respect theirs.
In addition, I'm a Red Cross Disaster Services volunteer and a ham radio operator trained to pass radio traffic in a natural or man made disaster. One of the best radio operators in the mid-south (an active member of the Air Force Military Affiliated Radio Service, whose call sign was AFA4ZH) used to be an openly transgendered individual. Unfortunately, she died of a heart attack about 10 years ago. But she taught me (and alot of other radio operators in the mid-south) most of what I know about passing emergency radio traffic in disaster situations, in the years before her passing. If I am able to make a difference with my radio skills in a future disaster, it will be in great part because this great individual - who was born male but self-identified as female - took her time to work with me, and teach me what she knew.
Just thought you should know that. It's hard for folks to know a person's background, when they are communicating by internet. I only relay this because I think it is important at this point for you to realize that I am not "the enemy." I have a great respect for members of the transgendered community, both in the New Orleans area and elsewhere as well.
So, is it possible that I've used the ladies restroom at the same time that a transgendered person has?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact. This is because I used the restroom at an Air Force MARS convention that both me and "Zulu Hotel" both attended. She used the same public restroom during convention breaks that I did, and at the same time. It really wasn't a big deal. I think we might have used the restroom at the local Red Cross chapter at the same time, too, but I'm not sure about that.
A key point here is that she was dressed like a female, and looked like one, so I would never have known she was transgendered if I hadn't known 'Zulu Hotel" personally.
A big part of the problem with the transgendered law, IMHO, is that it allows ALL individuals who call themselves transgendered to use restrooms of the opposite sex -- not just those who really look the part.
This means that in the next few years, you could have individuals who look and act like men using the female restrooms at schools, churches, etc. Some of these will be genuine transgendered individuals. Others could very likely be straight men or pedophiles taking advantage of the situation for their own pleasure.
But even if the person in the restroom really is just a transgendered individual - an no threat to anybody - he/she could still scare the tar out of a young girl who has been the victim of rape or sexual assault.
And meantime, once individuals who look like men begin to come into female restrooms in large enough numbers so as not to stand out -- at that point -- whether you want to acknowledge it or not -- you are going to start having problems with other men taking advantage of the situation to go into the female restrooms themselves. Maybe they're looking for some child to rape. Maybe they just like stalking or scaring little girls. But they will be there -- the moment that the presence of males in the female restroom becomes common place enough for them to slip underneath the radar.
"I've been stalked and flashed and sexually harassed and I can tell you from my own experience men do these things on impulse and they aren't going to go to the trouble of trying to pretend to be female to do it. It's happened to me in malls, parking lots, in cars at traffic intersections and even in the workplace."
I'm sure that is true for some perverts. Not so true for others.
"If ANYONE goes into a locker room or public restroom and starts molesting someone or engages in lewd behaviour that person would be committing a sexual offence which is ALREADY ILLEGAL."
This is true.
But men (and occasionally females as well) often act upon impulse (as you already acknowledged). Its sort of like -- most people will not go out of their way to steal money, but if they happen to see an unattended wallet in a secluded place when noone else is around to see what happens -- how many people will take advantage of the situation and help themselves to any cash that might be in that unattended wallet?
"Remember how blacks were said to be dirty sex mad brutes and decent white women coudn't be safe around them? It's the same thing. That kind of discrimination was also justified religiously."
IF this were truly an issue that ONLY involved prejudice against transsexuals, than your point would be valid.
HOWEVER, alot of individuals who are NOT prejudiced against transsexuals are also against a law that wholesale allows transsexuals to "cross" restrooms. I consider myself to be among these.
There are issues of public safety that are also involved, anybody, as I have already pointed out in several other posts on this thread.
".... Again, the real intent of these bathroom laws is aimed at popular discomfort, not public safety. The goal is to make life difficult for trans people to force them out of the workplace and public life so they are not seen nor heard -- just like the the 1960s."
Honestly, I do not believe this to be the case, anybody.
"I only see bigotry and discrimination behind these laws.
Sorry."
Yes, I agree -- you do see only this limited perspective when you address this issue.
I've tried my best to help you to understand that -- at least in this one issue -- there is more here than just the rights of transgendered to be considered.
I don't think I've been very successful, though.
Perhaps at this point, it would be best for the two of us to just amicably agree to disagree.
After all, you DO have a right to your opinion. Just as I have a right to mine.
:)
"This is a medical matter...."
Transgenderism is a medical matter.
Where they use the restroom is a social, not a medical issue.
" I want you to listen, read and think. Once people begin to understand and realise what's going on so-called "popular discomfort" goes away."
Honestly, I do believe I'm listening to you, anybody.
Your sincere concern for the needs of the transgendered is something I wish more people have.
I have no more use for the opinions or bigotry of those who cannot tolerate the personal choices of the transgendered than you have, anybody.
I just think -- in this particular, isolated case -- that the bathroom issue is more of a public safety issue, than it is a civil rights issue (even though both elements are involved here).
I tell you what - I'm going to cut it off at this point.
You know where I stand, and I know where you stand.
And I DO respect your perspective, anybody.
So, I'll respect your right to disagree with me on this issue.
Civil rights laws are meant to protect marginalized groups.
And your description of 'innies' and 'outies' is too childish and incorrect to be credible.
And your description of 'innies' and 'outies' is too childish and incorrect to be credible.
I'm sorry but your posts show a deep, deeeep ignorance of this topic.
1. As a woman, I want the right for me and my daughter to not have to go to the bathroom with Buck Angel and to go with Janet Mock instead. That would make us feel way safer. Seriously, do you know any trans people? I used to date a trans guy and women actually harassed him in the bathroom because "he was clearly a man" and they felt unsafe and wanted him out. Conservatives would have him forced to be in the bathroom for women.
2. Trans women have already been using female bathrooms, and trans men male bathrooms, for a long time. You have gone to the bathroom with a trans man. You just didn't know it. It has never once caused a safety issue. It's just that conservatives have decided to make a stink about it and pretend it is a safety issue. It is not and has never been, except FOR trans people who are the most likely group in society to be raped and murdered. Trans people have used public bathrooms for decades.
3. Women can assault women, men assault men. Pedophiles generally target boys as much as girls. Girls are not molested more often than boys. Should I not allow my son in a bathroom with men either?
1. As a woman, I want the right for me and my daughter to not have to go to the bathroom with Buck Angel and to go with Janet Mock instead. That would make us feel way safer. Seriously, do you know any trans people? I used to date a trans guy and women actually harassed him in the bathroom because "he was clearly a man" and they felt unsafe and wanted him out. Conservatives would have him forced to be in the bathroom for women.
2. Trans women have already been using female bathrooms, and trans men male bathrooms, for a long time. You have gone to the bathroom with a trans man. You just didn't know it. It has never once caused a safety issue. It's just that conservatives have decided to make a stink about it and pretend it is a safety issue. It is not and has never been, except FOR trans people who are the most likely group in society to be raped and murdered. Trans people have used public bathrooms for decades.
3. Women can assault women, men assault men. Pedophiles generally target boys as much as girls. Girls are not molested more often than boys. Should I not allow my son in a bathroom with men either?
I want to point out again that COUNTLESS women told my ex they were uncomfortable having him in the bathroom. This was before any testosterone, anything--he simply 'passed' on his own. Women glared at him, yelled at him, reported him to management, etc., etc.--but he was born fully female, with female genitalia and a female name, and a female ID, though he did dress masculinely. He was questioned countless times, treated with skepticism by management, etc. But under these laws, he would not have been *allowed* to use anything but the bathrooms countless women asked/told him to leave. I know several other people this has happened to. You're very wrong in saying that it's only trans people affected by this law. (And I don't find that a very compelling argument, anyway--should we not have handicapped stalls and disabled parking or allow service dogs or ramps in public because 'it's an inconvenience' for non-disabled people? Should all the disabled people just stay home so they don't bother any perfect able bodied folks and their perfect normal lives?)
So WOMEN actually would have felt safer had these laws not passed and had he been allowed to use the men's bathroom.
So here we have 1) many specific examples of cis people being harmed by the law (not only women who don't want to be in bathrooms with trans men, but the many men and women who have been unfairly questioned, harassed and attacked because they were 'believed' to be trans by a shopper, cop, or management personnel), 2) even more specific examples of trans people, the most vulnerable group in society, being raped and assaulted, and on the other side 3) HYPOTHETICAL PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE UNCOMFORTABLE or hypothetical people who *might* be attacked by a person *pretending* to be trans (which they could do anyway, and which ALREADY HAPPENS in public bathrooms when perverts want to be perverts), even though it's never happened due to trans people being allowed in the appropriate bathrooms.
Hmm. Which is a more convincing argument? The many actual incidents of harm, or people's misunderstandings about things that may happen that never have?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 06:55PM by Loyalexmo.
So WOMEN actually would have felt safer had these laws not passed and had he been allowed to use the men's bathroom.
So here we have 1) many specific examples of cis people being harmed by the law (not only women who don't want to be in bathrooms with trans men, but the many men and women who have been unfairly questioned, harassed and attacked because they were 'believed' to be trans by a shopper, cop, or management personnel), 2) even more specific examples of trans people, the most vulnerable group in society, being raped and assaulted, and on the other side 3) HYPOTHETICAL PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE UNCOMFORTABLE or hypothetical people who *might* be attacked by a person *pretending* to be trans (which they could do anyway, and which ALREADY HAPPENS in public bathrooms when perverts want to be perverts), even though it's never happened due to trans people being allowed in the appropriate bathrooms.
Hmm. Which is a more convincing argument? The many actual incidents of harm, or people's misunderstandings about things that may happen that never have?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 06:55PM by Loyalexmo.
It's moments like this (among many others) that remind me how happy I am that I left the church.
Its leaders are awful people pretending to be exquisite ones.
Its leaders are awful people pretending to be exquisite ones.
The church is always and consistently on the wrong side of human decency and compassion. Makes on wonder exactly where do they get their inspiration from.
Why are they pointing to "religious freedom"?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2017 08:25PM by cinda.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2017 08:25PM by cinda.
Cause it infringes on their religious freedom if they have to pee in the same restroom as someone whose birth certificate says they should be peeing in a urinal. I'd love to be in a restroom when some ignorant Mormon woman has to explain to her little girl why there's a big burly man in the ladies room. People don't think.
They keep bringing up religious freedom, and they don't really define what they mean. It must mean "freedom to discriminate." How is going potty a religious issue?
Public buildings should not be built nowadays without a third bathroom option included in its architecture, a so-called "family" bathroom option.
It is not just the transgendered who would benefit.
Single parents with a child of the opposite sex who is too young to go to the bathroom by themselves, but too old to go in the opposite sex's bathroom is one example (besides meeting the needs of the transgendered) where a third bathroom option would be beneficial.
At the gym where I workout, a lady had a problem with her teenage son who is autistic -- because of his autism, he could not change out to go swimming on his own. But because of his age, he couldn't come into the lady's locker room with all of those women disrobing.
This is a really good example of why a third bathroom should be built into newly designed and built public buildings, IMHO.
Plus, it would give the transgendered a place to go, too.
It is not just the transgendered who would benefit.
Single parents with a child of the opposite sex who is too young to go to the bathroom by themselves, but too old to go in the opposite sex's bathroom is one example (besides meeting the needs of the transgendered) where a third bathroom option would be beneficial.
At the gym where I workout, a lady had a problem with her teenage son who is autistic -- because of his autism, he could not change out to go swimming on his own. But because of his age, he couldn't come into the lady's locker room with all of those women disrobing.
This is a really good example of why a third bathroom should be built into newly designed and built public buildings, IMHO.
Plus, it would give the transgendered a place to go, too.
You can look up the facts for yourself. Trans people have brains just like those of cisgendered individuals of the corresponding biological sex.
It's a real biological condition -- not make believe.
It's a real biological condition -- not make believe.
I don't think anybody here is maintaining anything different, anybody.
I know I am not.
Now, what the idiots in the LD$ cult are arguing -- well, that's another story entirely.
But I don't think anybody on this thread is arguing anything different, anybody.
IMHO, you are so sensitive about the transgendered issue that you are not able to recognize the legitimate needs (read that: civil rights, if you choose) of other individuals, specifically as it pertains to the bathroom issue.
I know I am not.
Now, what the idiots in the LD$ cult are arguing -- well, that's another story entirely.
But I don't think anybody on this thread is arguing anything different, anybody.
IMHO, you are so sensitive about the transgendered issue that you are not able to recognize the legitimate needs (read that: civil rights, if you choose) of other individuals, specifically as it pertains to the bathroom issue.
I was bullied and I don't want to see anyone bullied again,
"Popular discomfort" is just polite discrimination.
Hate is not a civil right.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 03:19AM by anybody.
"Popular discomfort" is just polite discrimination.
Hate is not a civil right.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 03:19AM by anybody.
I am sincerely sorry that you have been bullied, anybody.
NOBODY should have to go through that.
NOBODY should have to go through that.
My rights as a woman are harmed by trans people not being allowed to use public bathrooms.
These laws have already caused assaults and police investigations of women with short hair who don't even look male. They have also forced me to go to the bathroom with extremely masculine trans men. That makes me feel unsafe.
These laws have already caused assaults and police investigations of women with short hair who don't even look male. They have also forced me to go to the bathroom with extremely masculine trans men. That makes me feel unsafe.
Yet another mealy mouthed statement that says practically nothing. They have to be non-committal on everything they say so they can weasel out of it later.
I doubt the apostles care much where they go potty as long as the Depends hold out.
I doubt the apostles care much where they go potty as long as the Depends hold out.
It seems to me that transgendered people do their best to look like the gender they identify with. Often they are very good at it and people can't tell that they are transgender. It would be alarming to see a transgender female walk into a men's restroom, and vice versa with a transgender male into a ladies room. I think with time, people will lose the fear that they feel.
I think that most newer buildings do already have a third "family" restroom, including lds churches.
I still don't see how this is a religious issue.
I think that most newer buildings do already have a third "family" restroom, including lds churches.
I still don't see how this is a religious issue.
and as time passes there will be more and more trans people that have had access to medical care and puberty blockers so they won't have secondary sex characteristics and you won't know the difference.
If you believe, then why does god still allow some people to be born with tails? Why do some people have cleft palates or club feet? It just happens.
Remember Rosemary Kennedy? You can't change someone's brain but you can correct the body to fit the mind.
It's not a religious issue. It's using religion as a vehicle for hate and discrimination.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 12:20AM by anybody.
If you believe, then why does god still allow some people to be born with tails? Why do some people have cleft palates or club feet? It just happens.
Remember Rosemary Kennedy? You can't change someone's brain but you can correct the body to fit the mind.
It's not a religious issue. It's using religion as a vehicle for hate and discrimination.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 12:20AM by anybody.
A transgendered individual who actually looks the part SHOULD use the bathroom of the gender that they appear to be, IMHO.
The problem lies, IMHO, when somebody who does not look the part goes into the restroom of the sex that they do not look like. Which this law allows.
As "anybody" has pointed out in previous posts, we probably all have used a public restroom at some time or another with a transgendered individual who looks the part, and not even known it was happening.
And nobody was hurt by this.
But as far as you not seeing how this is an issue of religious freedom, maybe the reason you can't see this is because it is NOT an issue of religious freedom!
When I read things like LD$, Inc claiming that this is an issue involving religious freedom, it makes me so happy I left the cult about 10 years ago...
The problem lies, IMHO, when somebody who does not look the part goes into the restroom of the sex that they do not look like. Which this law allows.
As "anybody" has pointed out in previous posts, we probably all have used a public restroom at some time or another with a transgendered individual who looks the part, and not even known it was happening.
And nobody was hurt by this.
But as far as you not seeing how this is an issue of religious freedom, maybe the reason you can't see this is because it is NOT an issue of religious freedom!
When I read things like LD$, Inc claiming that this is an issue involving religious freedom, it makes me so happy I left the cult about 10 years ago...
Eeek! Random genitalia! Run, kiddies!
I would like to see series of single-stall, unisex bathrooms that lock. It's the safest solution for everyone. It would take time to re-engineer buildings for this, but the results would be worth it.
YMCAs I've gone to (modern ones anyway) have family restrooms & changing rooms by the pool/spa.
Wanted to have nookie with g.f. in the family room, but it didn't happen...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 01:39AM by GNPE.
Wanted to have nookie with g.f. in the family room, but it didn't happen...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 01:39AM by GNPE.
Yet another LDS distraction away from Kindness, Honesty, & Respect...
Amazingly. the list continues to grow.
Amazingly. the list continues to grow.
People have been(unknowingly) sharing restrooms with transgender individuals for probably decades. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the LDS church declares it another "public health crisis", as they have recently labeled pornography.
As anybody pointed out, it's using religion as a vehicle for hate and discrimination and calling it "religious freedom".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 03:18PM by cinda.
As anybody pointed out, it's using religion as a vehicle for hate and discrimination and calling it "religious freedom".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2017 03:18PM by cinda.
We have a M to F trans at work One of the best persons I've ever met
However, LDS Inc. DOESN'T CARE ABOUT INDIVIDUALS; IT O N L Y cares about it's image to maintain the Org thru rules & regulations that the Rank & File has ABSOLUTELY NO SAY IN MAKING OR IMPLEMENTING OR ENFORCING (often inconsistent, arbitrary/capricious)
LDS cares about itself, not even its donors, Except the Royalty.
LDS cares about itself, not even its donors, Except the Royalty.
Only if you go on it
Like it goes on members and non-members alike.
It only cares about your sex because it's something (it thinks) it can take/ get from you - something to shove you around with, especially if you change it, or are (female) DIFFERENT/ honest/ yourself. That confuses Mormonites. That might be your job. Keep LDSink on their toes. Challenge the LDSbs!
Use the bathroom you want. LDStinks uses the sink. Real people use the toilet... and tscc IS in the toilet.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 12:21AM by readwrite.
Like it goes on members and non-members alike.
It only cares about your sex because it's something (it thinks) it can take/ get from you - something to shove you around with, especially if you change it, or are (female) DIFFERENT/ honest/ yourself. That confuses Mormonites. That might be your job. Keep LDSink on their toes. Challenge the LDSbs!
Use the bathroom you want. LDStinks uses the sink. Real people use the toilet... and tscc IS in the toilet.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 12:21AM by readwrite.
I expected kiddies to need reminders and help with their needs. Adults? I think they can handle their needs without my help.
And it's no longer simply the domain of those bigoted Christians. Feminists are waking up and realizing the new interpretation of Title IX to allow for transgender choice of baths is creating massive unintended consequences. While the intent of Title IX was largely to protect women's rights in areas like housing and athletics, the new interpretation is essentially erasing those strides.
If your school legally enforces the concept that anyone for any reason can self-identify as a woman, this means it has paved the way to essentially erase women's sports. You may wish to combat this notion with the scarcity of proof that men are taking advantage of these laws, but that's not really the point. If you believe these laws should be subject to the "honor system" you are saying they're not needed at all. Men are now allowed at anytime to access virtually every protection that women fought for. No surgery is needed, no special clothing, a man merely needs to utter the words, "I identify as a woman," and he is now entitled to every advantage that women fought for.
As one feminist has put it, these new definitions are essentially erasing the actual female gender as irrelevant since they enjoy no special protections at all anymore.
You think these laws have no impact? Ask the the girl's swim team in Seattle how they felt when a man entered their locker room while they were changing for swim practice. He began to disrobe in front of them, and there was no legal recourse. He is free to return and do it again as often as he likes. A few years ago such a man would have been arrested and perhaps face significant jail time. Now, he just utters those get-out-of-jail-free words: "I identify as a woman."
http://www.jconline.com/story/opinion/readers/2016/08/16/op-ed-women-lose-gender-ordinance/88834186/
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/
If your school legally enforces the concept that anyone for any reason can self-identify as a woman, this means it has paved the way to essentially erase women's sports. You may wish to combat this notion with the scarcity of proof that men are taking advantage of these laws, but that's not really the point. If you believe these laws should be subject to the "honor system" you are saying they're not needed at all. Men are now allowed at anytime to access virtually every protection that women fought for. No surgery is needed, no special clothing, a man merely needs to utter the words, "I identify as a woman," and he is now entitled to every advantage that women fought for.
As one feminist has put it, these new definitions are essentially erasing the actual female gender as irrelevant since they enjoy no special protections at all anymore.
You think these laws have no impact? Ask the the girl's swim team in Seattle how they felt when a man entered their locker room while they were changing for swim practice. He began to disrobe in front of them, and there was no legal recourse. He is free to return and do it again as often as he likes. A few years ago such a man would have been arrested and perhaps face significant jail time. Now, he just utters those get-out-of-jail-free words: "I identify as a woman."
http://www.jconline.com/story/opinion/readers/2016/08/16/op-ed-women-lose-gender-ordinance/88834186/
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/02/17/transgender-rule-washington-state-man-undresses-locker-room/80501904/
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefrisky.com/2016-02-10/german-model-slated-to-be-first-trans-man-on-mens-health-cover%3Famp%3D1
I don't want to go to the bathroom with this guy.
I don't want to go to the bathroom with this guy.
I would feel uncomfortable with that as well. A correctly written law wouldn't present problems for that individual.
If that individual was a transwoman, some of the regulations written today may actually present problems as someone who simply CLAIMED to be a woman but were a man could follow that individual to a bathroom and do terrible things to them (which has happened to transwoman from men in other situations, especially when the transwoman was forced to use a man's restroom).
Except now, with some of the rules, those same men can simply claim to be a woman and follow the transwoman into the woman's bathroom instead.
If that individual was a transwoman, some of the regulations written today may actually present problems as someone who simply CLAIMED to be a woman but were a man could follow that individual to a bathroom and do terrible things to them (which has happened to transwoman from men in other situations, especially when the transwoman was forced to use a man's restroom).
Except now, with some of the rules, those same men can simply claim to be a woman and follow the transwoman into the woman's bathroom instead.
I don't think it's the idea of equality that's the problem. I don't think most have a problem with granting equal rights, it's HOW the laws are being written, rather than the idea or the people they want to protect and whether the laws being written really achieve that, or are accomplishing something else.
This is a complicated issue. First, those who are REALLY transgendered have used the bathroom they identified with for years. There were no laws defining who had to be allowed to use what bathroom. If they could pass for the gender they identified with, no one normally made any complaints.
So why is there this big push?
Let's look at something else that's been happening for a few years now. People have tried to put spy cameras in woman's changing rooms for a LOOONG time, but recently a lot of these have been coming onto the internet. Woman are having their privacy violated and then broadcast for everyone in the world to see. Who does this...who has this type of access to woman's restrooms and changing rooms.
Well, it happens in the US, but the biggest cases of the past 5 years have come from European nations which have transgendered laws where men can have unfettered access to these places. It's a major problem...both for the rights of those violated, as well as the legalities of trying to get these tapes taken off of the internet.
So, this is the type of people that want access in the US. These are those who cannot pass for the opposite gender, and hence, the way things worked before, DO NOT work for them. They want easy access.
It's not just about the rapist out there (of which there actually have been multiple cases, just in the past few months, but which are NOT broadcast or talked about by the media who know broadcasting such things would damage their message...) abusing these types of regulations, but those who would do things like the items posted above.
Woman have a right to privacy, and woman have a right not to worry that this person that is abusing the law, is actually in their right mind.
A secondary problem, Transgendered individual are not necessarily attracted to those of opposite gender they identify with. A Transwoman (Man who states they are now a woman) in many instances is STILL attracted to woman. They even act upon those impulses (case in point, Caitlyn Jenner).
These are things I don't think woman should need to deal with. It's not bigoted to have concerns about those who will abuse the law, rather than writing a law that actually is relevant.
Many of these laws are NOT being written to truly protect the Transgendered, or they'd have things such as having it so that there is something that truly identifies that individual as a Transgendered individual other than merely their word. Any Man can say they identify as a woman and then abuse the heck out of a law worded that way.
When a law is written that way, it is written for neither a transgendered protection (as those who would abuse the law are the enemy of a transgendered individual just as much as anyone else's), nor for woman.
Some states have it correctly written, in which case those who are transgendered which are truly transgendered can continue to use the restroom they have been using all along.
Other states are putting out laws that threaten woman, children, and anyone who are not out to abuse such laws and regulations under the guise of transgendered equal rights.
Many men don't have a problem with it, and some woman do not either, but to say those other woman should have their concerns simply ignored and they have no basis for it...in many instances to me, are exhibiting that old trait of discrimination against woman...
If we REALLY want to go onto the equal rights idea and slant of this entire picture...from feminists and equal rights points of view...
Especially in light that many of those pushing this the strongest are WHITE MALES who have experienced what some may consider white male privilege in life. Some are continuing to use that privilege as a transgendered Woman while utilizing the rights as a White Male because they still have the ability to USE that (aka, not truly completely transgendered), rather than listening to what many woman who feel uncomfortable with the ways the laws are being written. What's worse, is that many of those who take up this cause, have OTHER designs on these laws and do not think the entire way through on how these laws can effect the world around them including those who would abuse such laws.
In my opinion, it's not so much the idea that's wrong, but HOW the actual rules and laws on how it's being enacted that are flawed. Instead of taking time to write laws that will ensure equality and balance, many are rushing to write laws that have no such balance and equality in their heart.
This is a complicated issue. First, those who are REALLY transgendered have used the bathroom they identified with for years. There were no laws defining who had to be allowed to use what bathroom. If they could pass for the gender they identified with, no one normally made any complaints.
So why is there this big push?
Let's look at something else that's been happening for a few years now. People have tried to put spy cameras in woman's changing rooms for a LOOONG time, but recently a lot of these have been coming onto the internet. Woman are having their privacy violated and then broadcast for everyone in the world to see. Who does this...who has this type of access to woman's restrooms and changing rooms.
Well, it happens in the US, but the biggest cases of the past 5 years have come from European nations which have transgendered laws where men can have unfettered access to these places. It's a major problem...both for the rights of those violated, as well as the legalities of trying to get these tapes taken off of the internet.
So, this is the type of people that want access in the US. These are those who cannot pass for the opposite gender, and hence, the way things worked before, DO NOT work for them. They want easy access.
It's not just about the rapist out there (of which there actually have been multiple cases, just in the past few months, but which are NOT broadcast or talked about by the media who know broadcasting such things would damage their message...) abusing these types of regulations, but those who would do things like the items posted above.
Woman have a right to privacy, and woman have a right not to worry that this person that is abusing the law, is actually in their right mind.
A secondary problem, Transgendered individual are not necessarily attracted to those of opposite gender they identify with. A Transwoman (Man who states they are now a woman) in many instances is STILL attracted to woman. They even act upon those impulses (case in point, Caitlyn Jenner).
These are things I don't think woman should need to deal with. It's not bigoted to have concerns about those who will abuse the law, rather than writing a law that actually is relevant.
Many of these laws are NOT being written to truly protect the Transgendered, or they'd have things such as having it so that there is something that truly identifies that individual as a Transgendered individual other than merely their word. Any Man can say they identify as a woman and then abuse the heck out of a law worded that way.
When a law is written that way, it is written for neither a transgendered protection (as those who would abuse the law are the enemy of a transgendered individual just as much as anyone else's), nor for woman.
Some states have it correctly written, in which case those who are transgendered which are truly transgendered can continue to use the restroom they have been using all along.
Other states are putting out laws that threaten woman, children, and anyone who are not out to abuse such laws and regulations under the guise of transgendered equal rights.
Many men don't have a problem with it, and some woman do not either, but to say those other woman should have their concerns simply ignored and they have no basis for it...in many instances to me, are exhibiting that old trait of discrimination against woman...
If we REALLY want to go onto the equal rights idea and slant of this entire picture...from feminists and equal rights points of view...
Especially in light that many of those pushing this the strongest are WHITE MALES who have experienced what some may consider white male privilege in life. Some are continuing to use that privilege as a transgendered Woman while utilizing the rights as a White Male because they still have the ability to USE that (aka, not truly completely transgendered), rather than listening to what many woman who feel uncomfortable with the ways the laws are being written. What's worse, is that many of those who take up this cause, have OTHER designs on these laws and do not think the entire way through on how these laws can effect the world around them including those who would abuse such laws.
In my opinion, it's not so much the idea that's wrong, but HOW the actual rules and laws on how it's being enacted that are flawed. Instead of taking time to write laws that will ensure equality and balance, many are rushing to write laws that have no such balance and equality in their heart.
See, the thing is, your theory that these laws 'wanting easy access' goes against your own logic.
The laws being initiated are from conservatives and bigots who are AGAINST allowing trans people equal access. THEY initiated this entire issue. So any laws attempting to allow equal access ARE A RESPONSE to those laws, which are written to say that anyone born with a vagina must use the women's bathroom. Your theory would make more sense if the laws had been initiated by trans activists. They weren't.
So by your logic...wouldn't these anti-trans-rights laws actually indicate that men want to keep raping trans women and having access to them, since they seem to want to be in bathrooms with them so badly? After all, they're the ones who started the issue and are insisting on their right to be in bathrooms with trans women, whom they regard as men. So...does that indicate that they want easy access to trans women to rape and look at, since so many trans women are raped on a daily basis? See how foolish that sounds? The opposite sounds even sillier, because that's never happened, whereas men rape trans women all the time.
And no, the ones pushing this the strongest tend to be trans people of color. I don't know where you get that they're white 'males.'
I don't know what your point is in saying that trans women are sometimes attracted to women and *gasp* act on those impulses. Sure? And many men, cis and trans, are attracted to men, and some men rape men. And many women are attracted to women, and some women rape other women. So should male-born men not go into bathrooms with each other? Most men are raped by other men. Most boys are molested by men, not women. So actually...by your logic (which I think is flawed), wouldn't laws allowing equal access put boys less at risk of molestation, since trans men (who you seem to regard as 'women') would be likelier to be in bathrooms with them instead of only men? Why do we only care about girls getting molested and not boys when it happens just as often to them?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 07:23PM by Loyalexmo.
The laws being initiated are from conservatives and bigots who are AGAINST allowing trans people equal access. THEY initiated this entire issue. So any laws attempting to allow equal access ARE A RESPONSE to those laws, which are written to say that anyone born with a vagina must use the women's bathroom. Your theory would make more sense if the laws had been initiated by trans activists. They weren't.
So by your logic...wouldn't these anti-trans-rights laws actually indicate that men want to keep raping trans women and having access to them, since they seem to want to be in bathrooms with them so badly? After all, they're the ones who started the issue and are insisting on their right to be in bathrooms with trans women, whom they regard as men. So...does that indicate that they want easy access to trans women to rape and look at, since so many trans women are raped on a daily basis? See how foolish that sounds? The opposite sounds even sillier, because that's never happened, whereas men rape trans women all the time.
And no, the ones pushing this the strongest tend to be trans people of color. I don't know where you get that they're white 'males.'
I don't know what your point is in saying that trans women are sometimes attracted to women and *gasp* act on those impulses. Sure? And many men, cis and trans, are attracted to men, and some men rape men. And many women are attracted to women, and some women rape other women. So should male-born men not go into bathrooms with each other? Most men are raped by other men. Most boys are molested by men, not women. So actually...by your logic (which I think is flawed), wouldn't laws allowing equal access put boys less at risk of molestation, since trans men (who you seem to regard as 'women') would be likelier to be in bathrooms with them instead of only men? Why do we only care about girls getting molested and not boys when it happens just as often to them?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2017 07:23PM by Loyalexmo.
I don't know a single Transgendered individual of color that is pushing these laws.
From what I hear and understand is...
They are still fighting for equal rights in the LGBT community.
Discrimination is excessively harsh and high right now in the LGBT community, and minorities in that community are having the fight of their life just to have the same opportunities to be in the same bar, much less any other rights.
Many are ignoring that LGBT minorities are at a huge disadvantage right now, and the only ones that actually are wielding power are those that are WHITE.
I know those of color probably would appreciate EQUALITY laws, but laws that basically say anyone can claim something doesn't do anything to further their cause, except allow those who hate them follow them where they don't want to be followed.
Many minority LGBT probably would be happy if they were not discriminated against in dating or going to bars, much less going to a bathroom with white LGBT individuals in certain bars and clubs around the nation.
From what I hear and understand is...
They are still fighting for equal rights in the LGBT community.
Discrimination is excessively harsh and high right now in the LGBT community, and minorities in that community are having the fight of their life just to have the same opportunities to be in the same bar, much less any other rights.
Many are ignoring that LGBT minorities are at a huge disadvantage right now, and the only ones that actually are wielding power are those that are WHITE.
I know those of color probably would appreciate EQUALITY laws, but laws that basically say anyone can claim something doesn't do anything to further their cause, except allow those who hate them follow them where they don't want to be followed.
Many minority LGBT probably would be happy if they were not discriminated against in dating or going to bars, much less going to a bathroom with white LGBT individuals in certain bars and clubs around the nation.
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