This morning I read about how New York City has an ERUV 18 miles long so Jews can mingle and carry keys and babies and such on their Sabath. I then read there is an ERUV where I live. A Rabbi has to check the ERUV every Thursday.

The ERUV sounds like it would make a great story for Star Trek.

Does TSCC have anything similar to an ERUV? If not, Joesph Smith missed a good one.

Jews have only themselves to blame for silly interpretations of silly Biblical laws, such as not "rounding the corner of one's head." The LDS church is really, really good at ignoring whatever it wants to, as well as arbitrary forms of observance that make about as much sense as Jewish interpretations, so there's no need to adopt even more senseless stuff. Most nonsensical Mormonism has to do with making you feel guilty and shamed.

And aside from wearing stupid temple garments, there's no particularly odd garb that Mormons need wear--no high-crowned hat balanced on top of a yarmulke, no tallits worn under your woolen jacket on a hot day, no payots (hair curls), no wigged women in mid-calf skirts, etc., no need to avoid electrical stuff on the sabbath, no rocking and swaying when you pray. Just when you think that Mormons are the silliest people in the world, along comes some ultra-orthodox couple.

I was on patrol some years back, in the Brighton section of Boston, and I saw a guy in a bucket truck working on a light pole. He was not the usual outfit, no cones, just one guy, working alone, no crew. He was also working with a single strand of very thin wire, not the usual stuff at all. Turns out he was repairing the ERUV for a local congregation. That wire defines their Sabbath geography.

I came across this map on a search:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=42.3310432464884%2C-71.16025000000002&spn=0.068211%2C0.134926&hl=en&msa=0&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1tvzN1lm0vi9vmObe9_SVpnxCOmc&z=13

My extent of knowledge is that ERUV is for Orthodox Jews, so they can conform to the Levitical restrictions of a "Sabbath Day's journey." Demonstrative of the legalism of many conservative religions.

there was an application for an extension to one of those recently in london - it was explained as extending the boundaries of the home/compound so jews could still push a wheelchair or pram, carry children or keys, or other things considered 'work' or 'labour' on the sabbath without 'leaving' their home to do those things, which are banned outside the home on the sabbath.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3619324/Plan-six-mile-Jewish-home-area-north-London-let-faithful-avoid-Sabbath-restrictions-raises-fears-creating-new-ghetto.html

Apparently there is an 11 mile long strip of eruv in london - that's a long after dinner stroll.

I just read the Wikipedia article on ERUV, and I still can't figure out what it's all about.


Is it like the Yellow Brick Road? :-)

what this is-I can't say I've looked up to see if I could spot the actual wire-or if I've made the association when I've actually seen one. I dare say many many gentile people who live here have even ever heard of it.

An eruv is only necessary for highly-observant, and almost invariably Orthodox, Jews (which means that highly-observant Jews tend to cluster in areas where eruvim exist, and the residences within those eruvim are more valuable than nearby, and possibly architecturally identical, residences outside of it).

Legally, an eruv is an extension of a person's own home, which means that, because the area of the eruv is considered every resident's personal "home," it extends the number of foot steps BEYOND which it is not permitted to walk on Shabbat and the relevant Jewish holidays. (Not ALL of the Jewish holidays, just SOME of them.) Since observant Jews must walk to shul on Shabbat and the other relevant holidays, this becomes important to those particular Jews.

In reality, and in contemporary life, an eruv is a very thin wire, which goes across the tops of the power poles and is attached, as necessary, to them. As I understand, the eruv wire cannot be seen from the ground (I have certainly never been able to see one!!!), but every observant Jew affected knows exactly where that thin wire delineates the area BEYOND which they are only allowed to walk a certain number of steps (I forget the number) before their "walk" becomes, by Jewish law, "work." ("Work" is very specifically defined in a very specific set of ways...and there are some counter-intuitive anomalies, for example: it is perfectly legal to rearrange the furniture in your house on Shabbat, no matter how much effort is involved or how tired you get, because there is no "cutting" or other specified-by-Jewish-law activity involved in rearranging furniture, and you can walk all you want to walk, or carry whatever you want to carry, within the confines of your own home.) [*]

Eruvim are just a legal and ancient way for Jews to do the things they need to do on Shabbat without breaking Jewish law, and that tiny wire on top of the power poles doesn't affect non-Jews in any way, nor would non-Jews be likely to even know it was there unless they live within the eruv and are told that their house has an increased value on the market because of its location within the eruv.

[*] Other ways Jews use to live within Jewish laws on Shabbat (etc.): making their house key into a pin which can be pinned to their clothing as decoration...pre-paying, BEFORE Shabbat, at a restaurant so the family can eat dinner out on Shabbat without having to use money or electricity for a credit/debit card...women in the shul having their own "hiding places" in the women's restroom for combs, lipstick or lip pomade, etc., etc., etc.

Again, the Jews involved are highly-observant and Orthodox, which means that they are, demographically, a minority within the Jewish population as a whole.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 11:56AM by Tevai.

The Valley Eruv in the San Fernando Valley covers 27 square miles. They can cover some ground. Oy.

I had never heard of an ERUV before, so that's news to me.

Wasn't raised Orthodox Jewish, but Mormon.

These days I worship at a Conservative synagogue, not Orthodox. Based on what I know of the Reform & Conservative schools of thought, ERUV isn't a practice to my knowledge with those sects of Judaism.

Tevai has much more understanding of what they mean, so I'm going to defer to her description.

I really don't know.

in hospitals and other places that Jews can use during their Sabboth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

dimmesdale Wrote:
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> in hospitals and other places that Jews can use
> during their Sabboth.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat_elevator

Yes...when I was in Israel, the hotel we were staying at was Shabbat-observant, so the elevators on Shabbat were set to automatically stop at every floor, in either direction (up or down).

Tevai, that's exactly what I was describing in my above post--thin black wire nobody would notice unless looking for it very specifically.

Various posters have provided different distances in different areas, so the computation apparently varies. I'll speculate that it involves some combined consideration of the synagogue or temple, and the members' homes.

Dimesdale, just think of the energy use, wear-and-tear on the elevator's machinery, and additional maintenance that programming requires! An excellent example of the complications and problems of legalistic religion.

I don't think the distances *inside* the eruv matter. Orthodox, observant Jews are only allowed to walk a certain number of steps *outside* their "home boundaries", but inside them they can walk all they want to. And the eruv is about extending their home boundaries.

Originally, "home boundaries" were your home and any fenced or enclosed area around it. Over time, the "fence" part (as well as walls and doors) were allowed to be mostly "symbolic" -- a "fence" or "wall" or "door" could be a piece of rope or twine or wire. What was needed to satisfy the arrangement was simply a continuous wall or fence, symbolic or not. So running a nearly invisible wire around telephone poles, street signs, etc. makes an enclosed area around you home, one that as an Orthodox, observant Jew you can wander around in all you like on the Sabbath, and even carry things with you like keys, or push a baby carriage.

Yes, I personally find it a bit silly. But as I pointed out in another thread recently, you have to admire the inventive ways some Jews make their "laws" more applicable to modern times and to all sorts of people. They bend over backwards to accomodate and still have the "law," which is the opposite of mormons, who bend over backwards to denigrate and shame those they consider "lawbreakers." The Jewish approach is fascinating :)

One gets to follow your arbitrary rules, but everyone knows what is really meant, both in the movies and speech.

Sounds like another set of stupid rules thought up by control freaks for no good reason other than to control those under them. #1 reason I walked away in 1971.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
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> Sounds like another set of stupid rules thought up
> by control freaks for no good reason other than to
> control those under them. #1 reason I walked away
> in 1971.

The foundation for these rules are the 613 commandments written in the Old Testament (248 "Thou shalt" and 365 "Thou shalt not"), the first ten of which are the ones usually acknowledged by Christians.

On a practical basis, once you have listed each of the 613, then come the questions, such as "what [exactly] is 'work'?."

The answers, which continue to be debated and reasoned, continue to this moment, such as: is it legally permitted for women to be rabbis? The continuing debate has, at last, produced a "Yes" for at least part of the Orthodox Jewish spectrum (Jewish women in other Jewish movements have been rabbis for, I believe, close to a half-century now).

This isn't about control (although there are always individual, and some sub-group, exceptions). Overwhelmingly, it is about explicating ancient [Biblical] Jewish law in the context of always-changing, contemporary, times...while still following what many (probably about 60% overall, as I type this---but this is an estimate on my part) Jews believe are divine instructions. (Secular Jews are rapidly becoming the majority almost everywhere on the planet.)

If you name a specific Orthodox Jewish mitzvah (commandment), then a Jewish rabbi or scholar could immediately show you (in the Talmud, etc., and in English) the written arguments, each credited to the rabbis and scholars who reasoned them, that have been made in the past 2,500+ years, and you would be able to trace the reasoning process down through the ages, to right now. (Because of the Holocaust, many new problems arose which required new rabbinical/scholarly thought and new legal arguments.)

Today, I think most Jews would overwhelmingly agree that the problems being argued are preponderantly about female (from girlhood on) participation in Judaism on an equal basis as males. Second would likely be issues relating to sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Third would be, I think, issues relating specifically to Israel as is exists today.

Three millennia from today, people will be able to read the legal arguments which are being determined in our time, and these will form the foundation of Jewish thought and practice in the year 5017 C.E.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 07:07PM by Tevai.

You seriously can't acknowledge its absurd?

What are you protecting?

Is your comment above any less insulting than my joke about the rubber chicken?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2017 12:02AM by thingsithink.

thingsithink Wrote:
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> What are you protecting?

I am not protecting anything...I am EXPLAINING, to the best of my knowledge and my abilities.


> You seriously can't acknowledge its absurd?

I think many things about Jewish law are absurd---for me in particular, especially the laws and some of the lifestyle practices of ultra-Orthodox Jews...

...beginning with ultra-Orthodox beliefs and practices regarding females (females starting at about age five or six), as well as ultra-Orthodox marriage.

Since I will never be ultra-Orthodox, and since the ultra-Orthodox have chosen (as of "now") to BE ultra-Orthodox, I freely grant them their rights to be what I consider "absurd" because this IS their right.

So far as eruvim and [regular] Orthodox Shabbat observance are concerned: this is not MY Judaism, but it IS theirs. I lived (more or less) Orthodox for three weeks in Israel, and that was enough for me for the rest of my life. (However: my choice of frum clothes, which I took to Israel with me, knowing that I would need them to go through Mea Shearim in Jerusalem, was PERFECT...I walked completely through Mea Shearim and NOBODY knew, or noticed, that I "didn't belong." :D )

If I was a guest in an Orthodox Jewish household, I would follow their lead re: eruvim, or Shabbat restrictions, or sitting behind a mechitzah during religious services (as I did in Israel), for the time I was with them, because I WAS a guest of their family, in their home and in their shul---just as I would take off my shoes before I entered a home in Japan, or I would make sure that I didn't show the soles of my feet to a Muslim in Saudi Arabia or Yemen, or (now that I K-N-O-W!!!) I wouldn't make an American kind of sandwich from the foods available at a Dutch breakfast buffet. ;)

Explanations, from anyone, are not the same thing as endorsements.

Oh. I like that. Thanks.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
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> Sounds like another set of stupid rules thought up
> by control freaks for no good reason other than to
> control those under them. #1 reason I walked away
> in 1971.

No suprise... since Mormonism was secretly organized by agents of Jewish Freemasonry.

Thus, the so-called restoration was born as a rebungnified church-front and a tool for atheists to splitterize Christianity.

The new-born was also endowed with 600+ commandments.

elderpopejoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No suprise... since Mormonism was secretly
> organized by agents of Jewish Freemasonry.

What is "Jewish" Freemasonry? My male maternal relatives (including deceased relatives) were Masons, and some of my female maternal relatives (including deceased relatives) were Job's Daughters when they were younger, and then they were whatever the women's group is called (I've forgotten the name)...but the Masonic organizations they were involved with had NOTHING to do with Jews or Judaism...especially since (with two exceptions, my Mom and my aunt) they were all loud and emphatic and totally offensive anti-Semites (to the extent that my aunt's fiance, a Jew, who really loved her, and she really loved him, said he couldn't marry her because the overt anti-Semitism in my family was just too hateful and overwhelming. (He was my favorite...and he was RIGHT.)

If the Masons (or any of their affiliated organizations) had ANYTHING to do with Jews or Judaism, either historically or at that time, NO ONE in my family would have had ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING Masonic, EVER. (You need to know that my step-grandfather and his family were all KKK.)

"Jewish" Masons???

With my family history, I can't comprehend even the remote possibility of such a concept.

I don't know if it's still there, but a few years back there was one set up near the National Mall in DC. I took my brother down to do some sight-seeing when he visited. He spotted it and pointed it out to me. We have Jewish ancestors on my mom's side, and my brother had done a lot of learning about that heritage. Anyway, he knew it was there and was excited to spot it. I'd never heard of it before that point.

Well, what do you know:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1-mCQDXPcozd6ZHONKJ-E9whpn0I&hl=en_US&ll=38.90559363700758%2C-77.03298895&z=12

That's a mighty large "home!" I think you could host a marathon inside those boundaries. Alternatively, you could get on the metro and ride quite a distance inside that zone. Is one allowed to drive a car in one's home? ;)

I have to chuckle when I see Krispy Kreme annotated as a "relevant Jewish landmark!" :D

nomonomo Wrote:
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> Is one allowed
> to drive a car in one's home? ;)

Yes, it would be legal to drive a car in your home if that is something you wanted to do...but NOT on Shabbat or on the other, "Shabbat-like" Jewish holidays!!!

The problem is "making fire." Unless life is in danger, an observant Jew is not allowed to "make fire" on Shabbat, which means no internal combustion engines that a Jew starts or controls, and no use of electricity BY an observant Jew (although a non-Jew, because they are not bound by Jewish law, is allowed to "make fire" which will benefit a Jew, and Jews through the ages have hired non-Jews to do exactly this under many different circumstances).

This is a great question!!! :)

My grandfather was a train conductor in the NYC area, and he told us of Jews who, when traveling on Saturday (and also Friday evening, I suppose) would bring a bottle of water with them and place it under the seat. Apparently, travel on the Sabbath was forbidden, except for travel over water, where neither man nor beast was providing the propulsive force.

Of course, sailing a ship is considerably more work than running a train, but never mind that. It is the precise wording of the contract with G-d that matters, so sitting over a water bottle, or "extending" your house with a thin wire meets the conditions of the contract.

I think the rules are ridiculous, but that is where our cultural reverence for the rule of law comes from, and that is not a bad thing.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> My grandfather was a train conductor in the NYC
> area, and he told us of Jews who, when traveling
> on Saturday (and also Friday evening, I suppose)
> would bring a bottle of water with them and place
> it under the seat. Apparently, travel on the
> Sabbath was forbidden, except for travel over
> water, where neither man nor beast was providing
> the propulsive force.
>
> Of course, sailing a ship is considerably more
> work than running a train, but never mind that. It
> is the precise wording of the contract with G-d
> that matters, so sitting over a water bottle, or
> "extending" your house with a thin wire meets the
> conditions of the contract.
>
> I think the rules are ridiculous, but that is
> where our cultural reverence for the rule of law
> comes from, and that is not a bad thing.

This is the first time I have ever heard about water bottles under a seat!!

Thank you, Brother of Jerry...this is a really wonderful addition to this thread (and a great thing for me to know, too!).

Wow, what an interesting topic.
I just looked it up in my home town of Perth Australia.
Turns out the Perth Australia temple is within the boundaries of the ERUV.

blakballoon Wrote:
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> Turns out the Perth Australia temple is within the
> boundaries of the ERUV.

:D :D :D

We have one in the Minneapolis suburb where I grew up. It surrounded the 3 main Syagogues in town. Also includes a Catholic high school next to one Synagogue.