I haven't been to church in over five years. No plans to go back. I've been lurking on the site for about six month. I keep seeing that the CES Letter is a "must read." I finally read it. I must say I'm not impressed.

The CES Letter purports to be a series of questions the Jeremy has about the church and its teachings. Reading the "letter" it is clear that Jeremy is not looking for answers. He already has his answers. I think his questions are valid as are the answers he has for those questions. However, it is clear Jeremy is not really looking for answers.

This is obvious based on the tone of the "letter" and the sarcasm that is pervasive throughout. Jeremy is not looking for answers. He is looking to challenge TSSS, although it also fails. The CES letter may give comfort or validation to those who are already on their way out, but I doubt it would have any effect on a TBM because it is written as an attack. TBMs are programed to shut out attacks. A sincere search for answers would have a better chance of getting a TBM to start asking questions.

On the other hand, the debunking by FAIR is also a piece of dribble. Same old same old. Replete with the use of the term "propaganda."

I hear you.

But it's tough to ask sincere questions. It's tough to be "really looking for answers."

Why?

Because the minute you ask almost any questions, the absurdity of the whole thing is apparent. "So, where did Joseph find the golden plates?" "How did the stone in his hat work?"

The questions drip with sarcasm. Because the answers don't exist.

It's an impossible task. But a lot of TBM's say reading the letter was helpful in their exit.

I agree with you, Brother John. His tone was too sarcastic and angry.

The CES Letter was based on the superb work of the Tanners at their Utah Lighthouse Mission. All praise should be given to them instead. The book Jeremy used is "The Changing World of Mormonism". It can be read and downloaded for free at the link below.

http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

"The CES Letter was based on the superb work of the Tanners at their Utah Lighthouse Mission. All praise should be given to them instead."

The Tanners definitely get a lot of credit for their research and publications over a half-century, but Jeremy should get credit for assembling and presenting his work in a manner that got a lot of attention on the internet in just a couple of years. Very few people are able to research Mormon historical material first-hand as the Tanners did. Almost everyone depends on someone else's prior work. I'm proud to say that Jeremy used one of my posts from this BB in his writings.

Thanks for sharing the link to the book by the Tanners!

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 10:04AM by Amyjo.

Mayhaps youve heard of the swedish rescue...holland had all the answers in his briefcase what twenty years ago now...perhaps you didnt feel the anger at being lied to or placated for most of a lifetime...or wasting so many hours and money that could have done something useful...certainly some just say hohum and move on...but id guess they didnt have the level of investment or the deep feeling of betrayal apparent in jeremys missive...i felt just like he does...tell ya what...write one better...im sure therell be a few will piss on your heart felt feelings too...yeah i know..some are just put off by anger or passion or questioning...many are still in the church...good place for them imo...they deserve it...please post your missive here...id be tickled to read it...especially if you put in the time and footnotes jeremy did...belittle it if you like...he said quite well what many have felt but couldnt put into words

The OP didn't belittle the CES letter. He just said he wasn't impressed by it.

"deep feeling of betrayal"
Spot on - In fact, I was just asking my wife over lunch today if she had any ideas of how I could get any of the monies I used for tithe back as it might ease that sickening realization of betrayal, fraud, and humiliation. I have been paying tithe since I was 8yrs old - berry picking money all the way through a professional career of 24yrs.

paying on berry picking money is a hot button with me. That's damn hard work for not much pay.

Then my father ran a berry farm for the church. I never picked a berry on that farm. That's where I drew the line.

The CES letter, even if TBM's see it as an attack, still shines a spotlight on questions that are fair game.

A TBM may, and will most likely see it, as an attack. But they still end up reading about things that they may have never heard about.

Some seeds take longer to germinate than other seeds. But the seeds of the CES letter are good seed.

I agree. Reading Jeremy's letter simply opened my eyes to many issues that I had never heard of through a lifetime of membership, seminary, BYU, etc... It led me to the JoD, The Messenger and Advocate, to reading the BoM for the first time with a critical eye, and worst of all, FAIR. FAIR opened my eyes to even more problems, and a world of apologists grasping at straws that were far more harsh in their tone than Jeremy. So, while I won't say that Jeremy's letter sealed the deal for me, it is what set me, a TBM at the time, on the path of no return.

Jeremy took action. Jeremy took courage. Jeremy looked the fraud straight in the face asked the questions no one is supposed to ask and got no effing answer from the CES director.

Do you think the director didn't answer because he didn't like the tone of Jeremy's letter?

How fricking long must a meek stance be required?

I say if you can do better then by all means get on it. No one on earth is stopping you, in fact we are rooting for you. Until then there is only opinion which does nothing. Jeremy did something and it has changed the lives of tens of thousands.

That is my opinion of Jeremy's tone.

I don't think I've read this where is it found?

http://cesletter.org/

TBM's have in fact read the letter and had it destroy their testimony forever never thinking that would ever happen before starting the read.

Not all TBM's have the same result but the net is rife with stories of many that did. So I disagree wholeheartedly with the OP on this point. CES letter still kicking ass. Were that I could do near as much to fight the lying thieves in SLC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 01:35AM by AmIDarkNow?.

Is it the whole book that's considered the letter?

The letter is about 80 pages long. Long for a letter, but short for a book.

I researched and read in many different places, checking sources all the way, before I finally determined that I no longer believed in the church and that I had been frauded. I did read part of the CES letter in one of my many searches. But I didn't rely on that one place; if I had, I probably would have rationalized it all away. I was deeply entrenched in Mormon beliefs, and had spent years discovering "anti-Mormon" things on the internet, then running to Fair Mormon or Jeff Lindsey's site for comfort. I could rationalize anything, so it took a HUGE amount of information and sources for me to "get it".

To me it seemed like a rehash of the obvious.

But I do admit that it speaks to the hearts of most exmos. It seems to encapsulate the basic problems of the church for those who don't know them. It's helped many mormons start thinking and set them on their journeys to freedom.

they wouldn't be TBMs.

If TBMs can't handle it, that's their problem. To be sure, it has always been their problem because TBMs simply can't deal with historical, intellectual, factual and moral pushback against their indoctrinated, Mormon-intoxicated mindset.

Only when a TBM goes through a significant personal experiential moment in their lives that directly and obviously contradicts the lies and fallacies of Mormonism, do they undergo a serious shift in the own worldview--One then includes an developing willingness to consider points of view outside the mandated Mormon or of it.

The language of the CES letter is well designed to be, and is quite effective at serving as, a wake-up call for LDS closet doubters who are already having a inner crisis of faith.

The CES letter was not written as "Anti-Mormonism for Dummies." It was written by a brain-active, stand-up. articulate waning-in-devotion individual who was seriously reconsidering his faith. When those doubts find a kindred experiential understanding in the minds of struggling Mormons who read it, the letter has planted its intended seed.

The language of the CES letter is perfect for those on whom it will have this kind of effect. Those on whom it will have an impact happen to be Mormons going through their internal questioning about their faith. They are at the right place, and at the right time, to read and absorb the portent of that letter.

Quit trying to force the CES letter into a mold where you think it belongs. It's already having its profound effect where it is. It is doing its job confirming to secret doubters that the Mormon Cult is, in fact, a demonstrable fraud. Back off and let it do that job. It is an affirming, supportive voice of reason and strength to those looking for answers outside the bolted-down Mormon box that has become increasingly heavy on their shoulders.

This board has seen former TBMs come here acknowledging that the CES letter was a significant influence on their decision to break out of the Mormon concentration camp. Give it the credit it has earned.

Leave. the. CES. Letter. Alone.



Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 05:29AM by steve benson.

Well said, Steve.

Have to agree with Brother John, despite it's many touch ups and reworkings the CES letter is rather unsophisticated and riddled with straw men. I had to read the ''letter'' in blocks of 4 because I couldn't swallow all the words being spooned into my mouth.

Thankfully the Tanners had already laid the foundations for my coming out of the church, so excuse me if I care to stick around and fall to my knees every time the CES letter is mentioned.

Is his wife a TBM? Because I got the impression he never wwas, because of the few positive things Mormon life offers. He wanted answers to simple questions, instead he got the runaround from a severely brainwashed stake president. Things snowballed from there.

There's only so many people you can brainwash.

His wife used to be active, I don't know if she still is. yes, he was TBM. Mission, BYU, temple wedding, the works.

I liked his interview on Mormon Stories more than reading the letter.

Keeping it simple:

The CES letter was a lot of work and took a great deal of time. It has helped thousands of people. We are all different. Anyone who takes that amount of time out of his or her life to help others should be commended. There is no perfect way to assist people out of Mormonism.

Agree. I just shared it with a friend whose husband is being targeted by missionaries. Many (most) people are ignorant of the Mormon Church, and, impressive or not, the CES letter is a great all-in-one resource to introduce the church's problems.

It may not be all that it is made out to be, but for anybody who is just starting to research the church, it is a good place to start.

It's strength is that it covers a broad range of church issues in relatively few pages, considering the subject matter. Question asked, question answered, move on to the next question.

I've read the whole thing only once, but even then there were pages I skimmed because I was already familiar with the material and its sources.

I was never concerned with the letter's tone, only with whether its claims could be backed up with verifiable sources and sound reasoning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 03:29PM by GregS.

In some respects, I agree with you.

But keep in mind a couple of things:

The "CES Letter" that's refined and posted today isn't the original one that was sent to the CES in the first place.

By the time Jeremy had gone to all the effort to write up the original, he already did indeed have most of the answers -- he'd researched them pretty thoroughly. He knew the church had no good responses. More than anything, he wanted to see what excuses they came up with to TRY and explain away the very real problems. Since you've read FAIR's response, you can see that what they came up with was pretty awful.

So, yeah, it can come off as sarcastic and a bit snarky. That shouldn't be at all surprising.

It's value, I think, lies in just that. It's somebody putting most of the real problems in the church's claims in one place, already knowing the church has no good answers to them. A (relatively) short one-stop shop of church lies and cover-ups. As such, it introduces people new to questioning the church to church problems in an overwhelming way, rather than having to look in 50 places to find 50 issues. To those adamantly refusing to believe there aren't any problems, it can be a "revelation." To those already questioning, the sarcasm might hit home, and induce sort of a, 'Wow, there's so many problems!' kind of feeling.

It's not perfect. But it can be useful.

. . . before they ask them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 07:56AM by steve benson.

...with the CES letter, but as of today, 53,648 people have viewed the youtube video of his church court:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJXTLdzD7Sg

That's impressive. I recently spoke with a former high-profile Mormon apologists, who no longer believes in Mormonism. He told me that the CES letter has made a big impact on many Mormons. The very fact that the CES letter has prompted rebuttals from FAIR, and was the subject of a FAIR conference speech by Daniel Peterson, bears that out.

As for your comment:

"Reading the 'letter' it is clear that Jeremy is not looking for answers. He already has his answers."

I agree. I think that in his questioning, Jeremy followed the adage of lawyers, who are not supposed to ask any questions for which they don't already know the answers. Jeremy knew that neither his CES instructor nor any other TBMs had any satisfactory answers to his questions. Nevertheless, he asked them in order to get it on record that they didn't have satisfactory answers. That's part of the appeal of his approach.

" ... he asked them in order to get it on record that they didn't have satisfactory answers."


A perfectly legitimate, and in this case quite effective, rhetorical approach.

For a shorter summary of Mormonism problems, without any snarky emotional content, see the older "To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism":

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm also at http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

This article has been available since about 1997, and has been translated into nine languages.

^^^This has also helped many people out of mormonism.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^^^This has also helped many people out of mormonism.

It can be printed on 9 pages (without footnotes) or on 21 (with notes).

It certainly helped me! Thanks again RPackham!

Maybe he does seem to have arrived at his answers. And that's part of the point. The letter is not a a set of answers, but challenge that says: this is the best I've been able to come up with on these issues--can you give me better?

He's asking this CES Director--if there is a way out of this maze please show me! Things have fallen apart, every one of these issues leads down a dead end that doesn't allow the LDS Church to be what it claims.

You'll sometimes hear LDS people say: "smarter men than you have seen all this evidence--yet maintained their testimony" etc.

So this letter basically threw down the gauntlet before this director, CES and the whole LDS hierarchy, and asked them to fight through all these issues. If there is a way out of the maze, they needed to show the way out.

No satisfactory answers to that challenge have been forthcoming.

As for the content of the letter, it's not my favorite piece of exmo lit, and I was well out of the church before it came on the scene. But I think its important to keep in mind that this is a letter--not a doctoral dissertation. It is not going to micro dissect every issue it raises and consider every viewpoint ever put forward.

But, if Brother John or other similarly unimpressed people have other specific issues that they would like to start a discussion about that could prove constructive. But complaining about tone or unspecified straw man arguments doesn't really help me understand some of the specific problems people have with the CES letter.

The CES letter was never meant to impress. That being said, the fact that again we are talking about it. That it has had such a profound effect on many members and Fair has felt the need to address it says volumes.

I guess what you describe as "sarcasm" strikes me as useful rhetoric. And that's not unlike the entire approach taken by TSCC in its recruitment efforts.

Missionaries aren't particularly interested in knowing how targets felt when they prayed. But they ask them "How did it make you feel" to evoke emotions that will seal the deal. And when members approach prospective members and ask/say "We would SO like to hear your testimony on Sunday" they actually have little interest in hearing a speech; they want to get the person more bought in.

So when Jeremy writes in a rhetorical form, you're right. He's not seeking replies. He's using the same approach.

Yes, I just reread the letter, and what I see is much more like intense frustration than sarcasm. There are a few sections, mostly toward the end, where what I read as frustration could well sound like sarcasm, but the majority of the letter? Not that I can see.

I do see lots of stuff that could be interpreted as sarcasm if one has a very sensitive ear for sarcasm. By that I mean that if someone is frustrated or angry, or expressing any intense emotion, and says something contrary to what you believe, there is a strong tendency to write it off as sarcasm. And then pretend that if it's sarcasm, it's not worthwhile.

The letter is a challenge to the Mormon hierarchy to come up with some information or explanations that are more convincing than the ones JR found. So far, they have not managed to do that. They've done a lot of quibbling and equivocating, but nothing much more than that.

If not for sarcasm how does one express themselves in a non

threating manner?

I don't think the CES letter meets the hype it gets here on RFM.

I can see why many TBMs immediately dismiss it.


Just sending it to someone who has doubts may be a little bit stupid and counter productive.

Better to key on three or four features of the fraud and scam of the Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon. If you can show Joseph was a fraud and a scoundrel, the whole foundation of Mormonism crumbles.

I haven't time to read everything up-thread now but someone metioned how the CES director never answered Jeremys questions. Then later at Jermy's court of love the Stake Pres. conducting it also refused to answer any of Jeremy's quetions. After putting a fine list of questions Jeremy had the courage to ask.

Reminded me of this fine quote that says it well.

MYTH

“A myth is an idea that while widely believed, is false. In a deeper sense, in the religious sense, a myth serves as an orienting and mobilizing story for a people. The focus is not on the stories relation to reality, but on its function. A story cannot function unless it is believed to be true in the community or the nation. It is not a matter of debate. If some people have the bad taste to question the truth of the sacred story, the keepers of the faith do not enter into debate with them. They ignore them or denounce them as blasphemers.”

I'm curious.
Exactly how does one demonstrate Smith to be the liar and conman he obviously was...and do it in a "nice way"---a way TBM's will read CES Letter and NOT be offended?
Personally, I think Jeremy was much too nice in his treatment of LDS dogma. Hitchens would have done the job right (IMO)!

What impressed me about the CES letter was the amount of work and research that Jeremy put into it. And yes, it does have some snarkiness and sarcasm, but the FAIR response to it, which was woefully inadequate in its response to Jeremy's questions was far more sarcastic and in my opinion mean spirited. This is from an organization that purports to be scholarly and academic, by the way.

I knew most of the information in the CES letter when it came out, and I owe this site and Richard Packham for that. Richards site is in my opinion the best tool on the internet, with perhaps the exception of mormonthink for real answers to questions about the Mormon religion. I remember visiting Richards site almost 12 years ago, when I was only 15, and finding out all kinds of things about the church that I could hardly believe were true and got the distinct impression that this was the sort of information that was being kept from me. Having already had a reputation in my life for being inquisitive to the point of being irritating, this did not settle well with me. It's what drives me to continue to try and keep up to date on Mormon information so many years later.

I think the CES letter is very useful for people who have a general interest in religion, maybe not so useful for people whose shelves are only a little cracked. Like others have said, you kind of have to ease people into the real truth about the church.

I have nothing but respect for Jeremy. I got the impression from the part of the letter where he asked the director for answers to his questions that despite everything he had found out and everything he had learned that he was sincerely wanting an answer, and was perhaps setting aside his decision about what he was going to do with the church on a personal level based on how this CES director or whatever Mormon Authority chose to respond. I think he got his response in his excommunication hearing, which I felt was incredibly disrespectful to him for a number of reasons, from not letting his own translator be in the meeting to the stake president repeated statements that ignored Jeremy's questions.

Although, at that point, I think Jeremy knew where things were headed, from what I have read about his journey from where the CES letter came from to the point of his excommunication. Still, I found the video of his excommunication hearing pretty shocking.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 11:49AM by midwestanon.

It wasn't written to impress you B.J. If so, it would have been much shorter (so anyone could read it), much simpler (so anyone could understand it) and much kinder (so you could appreciate it and it would be to your approval). Jeremy's letter-approach has awakened the truth in tens of thousands. Your disapproval or disagreement won't change that.

After years of lurking, is this your big debut? Hopefully you made constructive comments on the CESletter website. Tell Jeremy you didn't like it. Attacking his letter/ complaining here won't change it. Just saying-

Surely you will tell - or would have told - them the right way what you thought when you leave/ left. We would love to know how you would do it better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 01:14AM by readwrite.

readwright, you just as narrow minded as the TBMS you criticize. Many of the comments above about my impression of the CES Letter have merit but your comments don't. You personally attack me by saying:

"it would have been much shorter (so you could read it), much simpler (so you could understand it) and much kinder (so you could appreciate it and it would be to your approval)."

the length has nothing to do with my ability to read it, the simplicity or lack thereof has nothing to do with my ability to understand and its level of kindness has nothing to do with my ability to appreciate it. Much like the TBS you criticize for their blind following of church leaders, you seem to blindly follow the leaders of the exmo church haters.

> I haven't been to church in over five years. No plans to go back. I've been lurking on the site for about six month[s]. I keep seeing that the CES Letter is a "must read." I finally read it. I must say I'm not impressed.
>

As I've said before, it wasn't written to impress you, or anyone else.

> I think his questions are valid as are the answers he has for those questions. However, it is clear Jeremy is not really looking for answers.
>

You say you think his questions - and answers - are valid, but then, in the next sentence, say it's clear he isn't looking for answers. It can't be both ways.

> This is obvious based on the tone of the "letter" and the sarcasm that is pervasive throughout. He is looking to challenge TSSS[CC]... it is written as an attack.
>

I agree with peculiargifts that it's not sarcasm as much as frustration.

>
Brother John wrote:
> read[write], you [are] just as narrow minded as the TBMS you criticize. [NOTE: I am not criticizing TBMs, but rather examining/ critiquing/ commenting on your post and I am not near as narrow minded as you accuse or assume in your (im)”personal attack”].

> Many of the comments above about my impression of the CES Letter have merit but your comments don't. [just because you don't like them- or it offends you or hurts your feelings- doesn't mean mine don't have merit]. You personally attack me by saying: yadda yadda yadda]. [T]he length has nothing to do with my ability to read it, the simplicity... has nothing to do with my ability to understand and its level of kindness has nothing to do with my ability to appreciate it. Much like the TBS you criticize for their blind following of church leaders, you seem to blindly follow the leaders of the exmo church haters.
>

I am not criticizing TBMs (for blindly following CLs) and I don't “blindly follow" “leaders of the exmo church haters". You might do well to appreciate that I am a leader, not a follower; I do not hate; there is no “exmo church”; and I don't “blindly” do anything.

Judging by your original post, you seen to be overly critical of CESl. That is understandable. But then you criticize me for my comment. That is to sometimes be expected but there is no need in calling anyone a hater, which is simply not true.

You also don't seem to appreciate, or comprehend, sarcasm, as my paragraph on ‘not meant to impress you’ (and the CESletter, as you say, though I don't agree) is intended.

I am also ‘programmed’ to shut out attacks and am by no means attacking you, but simply trying to be clear and truthful, and have fun the same time. It is my nature.

I don't think there is any one perfect document, video, book, or website for those who are questioning the Mormon church. There are a variety of resources, one or more of which may resonate with a given individual.

If the CES Letter is so bad, then why can't people in the church easily answer all the questions in it and convince us to come back to church?

What's your point? It seems to have encouraged you to post. Might it not have been designed to do more than that? Does it bother you? What would you have done, or what have you done differently? This isn't a critique a mormon but a recovering from mormon culture/ doctrine board. Your tone seems to be overly negative. The CES letter is made the way it is for a reason and at least it got you to think. That's good. Keep doing it.

Keep it up Jeremy. Leading tens of thousands to happiness, starting with your own family. What a man!

I am biased, toward the path that lead to my own exit from "THE" church which does not include the CES letter, or the internet for that matter.

That path includes my association with my convert who inadvertently did so much to direct me out of THE church as he and I both kept the earnest search for truth at the forefront in our lives. My deepest apologies because that effort took so many ( TOO MANY) years to come to the fruition of exiting MORmONISM due in large part to the intentional LIES, DECEIT and CORRUPTION of THE (MORmON) church.

Let me be further and completely forthcoming on the matter as well. I have NOT read the CES letter. SO I do not personally know how impressive that it is, or is not. IF it worked for others then I am glad for them, and I applaud the effort.

There are some things that I do know: The Book of MORmON which I have read, is an awful POS from a literary standpoint, as well as being a disaster from a historical and archaeological standpoint. I am going to make a bold declaration. I welcome any valid attack or challenge to it. The highest form of anti MORmONISM comes from the MORmON leaders who LIE about MORmONISM the most in their desperate and pathetic attempts to promote MORmONISM. No one else comes even remotely close. If you can top the following anti MORmON @$$ clown buffoon in action of slandering MORmONISM by posing as itI am biased, toward the path that lead to my own exit from "THE" church which does not include the CES letter, or the internet for that matter.

That path includes my association with my convert who inadvertently did so much to direct me out of THE church as he and I both kept the earnest search for truth at the forefront in our lives. My deepest apologies because that effort took so many ( TOO MANY) years to come to the fruition of exiting MORmONISM due in large part to the intentional LIES, DECEIT and CORRUPTION of THE (MORmON) church.

Let me be further and completely forthcoming on the matter as well. I have NOT read the CES letter. SO I do not personally know how impressive that it is, or is not. IF it worked for others then I am glad for them, and I applaud the effort.

There are some things that I do know: The Book of MORmON which I have read, is an awful POS from a literary standpoint, as well as being a disaster from a historical and archaeological standpoint. I am going to make a bold declaration. I welcome any valid attack or challenge to it. The highest form of anti MORmONISM comes from the MORmON leaders who LIE about MORmONISM the most in their desperate and pathetic attempts to promote MORmONISM. No one else comes even remotely close. If you can top the following anti MORmON ass clown buffoon in action of slandering MORmONISM by posing as its inspired and inspiring leader, then I demand to see it.
I am biased, toward the path that lead to my own exit from "THE" church which does not include the CES letter, or the internet for that matter.

That path includes my association with my convert who inadvertently did so much to direct me out of THE church as he and I both kept the earnest search for truth at the forefront in our lives. My deepest apologies because that effort took so many ( TOO MANY) years to come to the fruition of exiting MORmONISM due in large part to the intentional LIES, DECEIT and CORRUPTION of THE (MORmON) church.

Let me be further and completely forthcoming on the matter as well. I have NOT read the CES letter. SO I do not personally know how impressive that it is, or is not. IF it worked for others then I am glad for them, and I applaud the effort.

There are some things that I do know: The Book of MORmON which I have read, is an awful POS from a literary standpoint, as well as being a disaster from a historical and archaeological standpoint. I am going to make a bold declaration. I welcome any valid attack or challenge to it. The highest form of anti MORmONISM comes from the MORmON leaders who LIE about MORmONISM the most in their desperate and pathetic attempts to promote MORmONISM. No one else comes even remotely close. If you can top the following anti MORmON ass clown buffoon in action of slandering MORmONISM by posing as its inspired and inspiring leader, then I demand to see it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEMX0VooD4&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6mtf1_-rx4&t=3s

video addendum


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1car5aCGE6E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E22FNolOyhQ

If you're not impressed it's because you're either not ready, not deeply tied to the church, or you were already exposed to the info.

Hang around a while. You'll see the CES letter and it's info is a gut shot to many around here. It's the letter that tells you your soulmate was a liar and never really loved you at all. It tells you your parents went to their graves praising a man who was never worthy of them while teaching them they were never really worthy of him. It's info the separates parents from the love of their children and vice versa. It's truth about generations of lies.

And like all truth, it doesn't care whether or not we're impressed. It just burns it's way into our reality and for many here, that burn takes away a lot of what they hold dear.

Regardless of the tone of the letter, were his questions ever answered?

No. The CES director told JR to write down his concerns and send it to him (the director). The director acknowledged receiving the letter and promised to answer soon. No answer ever came.

"Regardless of the tone of the letter, were his questions ever answered?"

Not by the CES instructor to whom Jeremy first asked the questions. IIRC, the CES guy didn't even respond to him. Typically, church leaders refer such questioners to FAIR articles. A lot of Mormons read those articles, and come away unsatisfied.

I had the First Presidency do that once per my personal inquiries about organic evolution that I had been making in a series of my own letters to Spencer W. Kimball, then Mormonism's prophet, seer and speculator.

The Clueless Three of the First Presidency lateraled the ball to my bishop, who called me in, showed me their letter and said he didn't know anything about organic evolution.

God works in mysterious ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2017 01:32PM by steve benson.

I didn't need it (I was already on the way out thanks to learning many facts and facets directly through Mormons' examples and actions/ lds websites & lies-propaganda, and a friend laughing at the absurdities and showing me rfm, mormonthink, etc., after not being around Mormons at all for two decades) but sure appreciate it for what it is and all it's done for tens of thousands of others in, out, and around Mormonism.

If it only led J.R.'s family out of hell/ tscc, it would have done enough, but it educates people everyday and encourages rational thought and honest conversation about the truths/ fictions/ fabrications/ myths/ superstitions/ assumptions that spring from the awful reality that is the trap, and catch-22, of JSBS (Joseph Smith's bull shiFt).

There is no doubt it encourages much thought, conversation and development of many hearts and minds.