And the atheist knew it was him would he have to change his title to a theist or could he still remain an atheist with his knew knowledge I wondered this today cause I may not be an honest atheist because of events in the past.

. . . along with the rest of God, is imaginary.

If an atheist somehow became convinced that said help came from a god, he would need to acknowledge the existence of said god. Thus, he could no longer be atheist. Not necessarily theist, though; perhaps agnostic.

The real question here is how do we know that this unspecified "help" comes from a god and not coincidence or perhaps one's fellow man?

Well its hard to explain I was in a situation that I knew divine intervention took place I was told I would get well enough to be released from an institution that looked like I would never get well enough to be released from but I did get released eventually but that is my only real experience that help from somewhere else was involved but I still think of myself as an atheist though.

Is it possible that human doctors, nurses, medicine and therapy helped you to become well enough to leave the institution?

Nothing helped me it's why I was hospitalized in the first place I was beyond medicine and doctors I was the worse case of depersonization they had ever seen with PTSD.

Its a dilemma that's for sure cause I don't believe in god at all he just intervened on his own accord and I can't explain it and he does not fuck around if he says you will be healed enough to leave even though the doctors have no clue what to do for you, you will get out of there I promise. Its the only unexplainable thing in my life cause I didn't think God existed or did anything or could take more punishment than me thats for sure. So do I have to accept it, it all happened but I haven't been helped since its a God damn mystery. The one thing I know is I really pushed death through my struggles but when you finally decide its your time an intervention may happen like this.

"I can't explain it" does not equal "god did it." :)

Well no human did it that's for damn sure

badassadam Wrote:
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> Well no human did it that's for damn sure

Maybe not, but see, the thing is you don't know *that* either.
Not being able to explain something means you can't explain something. That means "I don't know."
It doesn't mean, "I don't know, so god."
It doesn't mean, "I don't know, but it wasn't any human."
It doesn't mean, "I don't know, so Zeus."

It means "I don't know."

See how that works?

If you say, "I don't know, so god did it," that means you DO know. But you don't know. So that's a contradiction, and a bit silly. It's OK to not know. To not be able to explain things. Just say, "I can't explain this." It's really easy. There's no need to make up something you don't know to replace "I don't know" and pretend you DO know. :)

"I don't know, so some natural process neither I nor the medical community understands."

Stray Mutt Wrote:
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> "I don't know, so some natural process neither I
> nor the medical community understands."

That's the same fallacious argument, just with a different conclusion :)

"I don't know" means "I don't know." Yes, I get it that people don't like not knowing, but that's the case. Making up a conclusion (even that one above) doesn't change the fact that you don't know.

"I can't explain it, so it must be god". If we reduce this phrase down it ends up being something like this, "I can't explain it, so I can explain it(god)"

I have a friend who is convinced God saved his life as a baby so he could do some great work in the church in this life.

The Doctors told his mother it was a miracle the baby survived and they didn't know how it happened. Maybe it was the priesthood blessing they told her.

My friend will not listen to the fact that there are babies born everyday that survive against the odds, and that doctors call miracle babies because they don't know how they survived. Most of these babies have not had a Mormon priesthood blessing, they just survived because the human body is typically very good at fighting for life by itself.

The only explanation is Mormon God intervened and saved him.

First, atheism/theism is about *belief* (or the lack thereof).
Not knowledge.

If a person *knew* there was a god (and it did something), they'd be neither atheist nor theist. They'd have knowledge, and wouldn't be dealing in belief.

However, since nobody has any knowledge about whether "god" things exist or not (despite the claims of mormons and many other theists, really really REALLY believing something is not the same as knowing), that's not a problem.

I can pretty much guarantee that you don't have any knowledge that a "god" was involved in any way in things in your past. You may believe one was, but you don't know. So if you believe that, you're a theist, not an atheist. If you don't believe that, you're an atheist. It's not that complicated. Just don't pretend to have "knowledge" -- you don't.

What methodology would said atheist use to arrive at the conclusion that the help came from something that could be called "god?"

Answer that question and maybe we can continue the conversation :)

God doesn't help atheists. God only helps believers.

Now, if an atheist was cursed with horrible festering boils or a loathsome skin of darkness, and the atheist knew god did it......then you might have something to discuss.

And you WORSHIP such a being? Sheesh.

Your question presupposes the existence of God as a God and that this God could be known (as opposed to having faith that God(s) exist).

At one time in China, the Giant Panda was thought to be a mythical creature by Westerns because no one had ever seen one and only the locals talked about them - sort like Bigfoot today. One British adventurer set off to see if the creature was real or made up and eventually he found one and brought it back to show everyone else.

Before the panda was found, Westerners could either believe that this creature existed or not, but once it was found and displayed, belief was no longer a matter of faith; the concrete evidence had been found.

In your question, God (however you define God) has been found and God's existence is no longer a matter of faith.

Going back to example of the panda, someone intent on believing in the mythical creature could argue that the panda found was only a creature that resembled the mythical creature and was not the same thing. The same argument could be made for explaining your experiences you attribute to God. You haven't told us what they were so we can only guess what other explanations might exist (or might better explain what you experienced). Your experience is what it is but your interpretation of the experience is another matter entirely.

The real question is: if you give a mouse a cookie....

All good points I can't prove God showed up or anything like that so its still up in the air of how I got well when there is no cure for depersonation disorder besides trying to reconnect with everything again slowly doctors had no clue what to do there are no pills for this either.

badassadam Wrote:
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> ...there is no cure for
> depersonation disorder...

Hmm, there's also no "depersonation disorder."
Did you mean "depersonalization disorder?"

"Depersonalization-derealization disorder is thought to be caused largely by severe traumatic lifetime events, including childhood abuse, accidents, natural disasters, war, torture, and bad drug experiences. It is unclear whether genetics play a role; however, there are many neurochemical and hormonal changes in individuals with depersonalization disorder. The disorder is typically associated with cognitive disruptions in early perceptual and attentional processes."

If that's what you meant, I wish you the best.
You're right, there is no "cure" (there very often isn't for these kinds of disorders), but there are some treatments that have been shown effective. I hope you're getting some. Cognitive behavior therapy has shown promising results.

Thats what I meant I am still getting treatment and I've been told I've improved dramatically within the last six months so I think I'm doing something right in my therapy sessions and everything overall I still got a ways to go though I am pretty sure.

Hie and I are on different parts of the faith/belief/theism spectrum, but I always admire his posts and find his comments powerful. I think he's spot on with faith vs. knowledge. I believe in God, but that doesn't make God a reality. Hie doesn't see the need or evidence of God, that is his right and privilege as a thinking, caring, human being.

What appears to be reality right now is that you feel that you are healing from a major life episode. I'd focus on your recovery and not worry about where that recovery is coming from. If you see your recovery as being enhanced by faith, acknowledge that your faith, however you define it, is helping you become whole. If you feel that your healing is coming from skilled medical providers, thank them for helping you become whole.

The really good news is that you're healing and learning about yourself and your own wonderful person.

Don't worry dude...You never were.

True can't deny certain things so I never was an athiest just wish I was.

One thing I can't explain is belief in an invisible superior. I just know that the person who tells me about God knows nothing more than I do. In other words, I'm being manipulated, and it pisses me off.

I don't like to think of it as an invisible superior either I get pissed off everytime I even think of him with a body or a gender I don't like to be watched over in any way. But I think if there is something out there it backs off for the most part I don't think youve felt manipulated by a spiritual source in your life that you couldn't explain and that probably goes for everybody else. I was in a extreme situation and I admit I asked for any kind of help but maybe I started to heal on my own I know the doctors were in complete shock so I don't know how to explain it medications don't heal my condition in any way so I dont know it definitely wasn't the medical field.

And the Christian knew it was him would he have to change his title to a Pagan or could he still remain a Christian with his knew knowledge I wondered this today cause I may not be an honest pagan because of events in the past.

Use your own wording seeing somebody copy me is weird and sad at the same time and don't pagans worship Lucifer not comic book characters I could be wrong though you marvel geeks seem to know everything. let the comebacks begin this is why I got on the board.

In case you're not joking...

Lucifer is a Christian concept. While they don't "worship" him, they are the ones who believe he exists. Pagans, i.e. non-Christians, do not. Satanists are the group that supposedly worship him and it could be argued that since they also believe in Christ, but don't worship him, that they are not pagans. (note that in the US is there is a large "Satanists" group that basically uses the name in order make a point in Religious Freedom cases. So, their beliefs aren't necessarily what mainstream Christians tend to think. But I digress...)

As for Thor, (again, in case you aren't kidding) he didn't start as a Marvel Comics character and was around a very long time before Marvel though he'd make a good superhero. For Reference, see anything to do with Viking Mythology.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 05:49PM by Finally Free!.

Missed the point I see. Think harder.

BTW, this is the Thor I was talking about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

badassadam Wrote:
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> Use your own wording seeing somebody copy me is
> weird and sad at the same time and don't pagans
> worship Lucifer not comic book characters I could
> be wrong though you marvel geeks seem to know
> everything. let the comebacks begin this is why I
> got on the board.

No, that is Christian figure and slanderous misconception about pagans. Pagans don't recognize the figure known as Satan or Lucifer, that's a Christian invention. Most of the stereotypical images of the goat legs and horns are based on ancient nature gods like Pan. Thor was a god worshiped by the Norse people along with Odin, Freja, etc...and modern day pagans that follow the Norse path, sometimes called Asatru, still recognize these gods. Other paths include Gardnerian, Dianic, Eclectic, Vodoun, Santeria, neo-Shamanism, Druidism, etc, etc, etc...I was a goddess worshiping pagan for over a decade until it no longer worked for me and I realized I was an atheist after I nearly died 13 years ago.

While you're laid up, why not start studying a little bit about other religions and paths? Paganism is one of many and there a multiple versions and paths within paganism. You might be amazed at the wide world of beliefs out there. you can simply start with the Greek Classical myths and go from there. When you start studying world mythology, you see pattern in human beliefs and ideas.

I was just going to ask you why paganism? I dont know if I want to explore right now I'm pretty comfortable just being a person recovering I'm actually getting another surgery next week on my left foot so I will REALLY be laid up my shoulder is pretty decent right now so actually maybe I will explore some in the following month.

My late father had some roots in old world religion and we had some witchy-poo type stuff going on in my childhood. I've also been obsessed with mythology since I could read at a very young age and devoured every mythology book I could get my hands on. Even my moniker is a reflection of my pagan past, as Itzpapalotl was an Aztec warrior goddess that protected dead children in her realm, in the form of a clawed butterfly (or obsidian butterfly).

Paganism, depending on the path, is one of the few religions that upholds the divine feminine and feminine participation as important, if not more so, than the divine masculine. I never felt connected to male gods nor did they represent me as a person for the most part. It's very freeing, embraces nature, encourages respect for people and other living creatures, and is malleable depending on what you need from it. Most pagans I've known follow the basic rule of "And it harm none, do what thou wilt." I spent my childhood in a repressive, misogynistic cult that impedes natural development in both girls and boys, and I rejected with a passion.

I'm not saying start learning how to become pagan, because it's most definitely not for everyone, but if you're going to make assumptions about something you don't really know, it's a better idea to read a bit about it. Classical myths are a good start.

I think I have seen the results of this cult with actors singers sports players I've been studying the transgenders from these cults through YouTube videos it fascinates why they do it push an agenda of some kind but you would know more than I do I'm I right?

What cult? And what does that have to do with trans people? Are you talking about the whacko Illuminati nonsense?

Youtube is not always the best place to learn about this kind of stuff unless it's from actual professionals and researchers.

ETA: When I say cult, I'm referring to the Mormon cult in which I was raised, not a pagan one. I was raised with some bizarre stuff, too, though, that had nothing to do with Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 11:10PM by Itzpapalotl.

I know I'm kinda jumping in here - and this has less to do with the Original topic than Paganism. I'm new to this forum and interested in connecting with other former Mormons exploring Paganism. A lot of the things you mentioned about the Feminine Divine really resonates with me. I dunno, do you know of anyone else that would want to come together (online) and talk?

If God helped an atheist...

...one would hope that a such a spiritually advanced being would have the wisdom and humility to not need credit for the help given.

Does a human have the need to be worshipped by an ant?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 08:05PM by summer.

Good point but what if the ant was still smart enough to figure it was a human despite trying to stay hidden

The problem is that even if this god appeared in front of me and talked to me, I could still put it down to a hallucination.

Even if it was something concrete, that I couldn't deny, an episode of Star Trek comes to mind where an alien woman took advantage of a planet's mythology to trick them into becoming subservient to her.

She just had greater technology than they did.

At what point do we become certain that this is a god? What is a god anyway? First you have to define that god before we can really get anywhere with this.

I see your point and I can't define God other than unexplained healing and one messenger woman from church claiming that God told her I would get well enough to be released despite the impossibility of it all I actually ran into one of the doctors that didn't think I would get better a for years later he didn't even recognize me or my personality I was so different it was nuts.

Which god?

I don't know say the God that looked over Achilles figure he might be the same top dog these days haha.