Recovery Board
: RfM
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 09:17AM by steve benson.
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I was a struggling student in the 1960s at the University of California, Berkeley. The smell of tear gas, brings back the memories. But at the time of my near graduation I was at high risk to be drafted and end up cannon fodder in the cesspool called Viet Nam.
At this time Ezra Taft Benson was on a rant about the dangers of communism, and his support of the John Birch society. Shades of Joseph McCarthy. ETB was a part-time friend and snitch for J. Edgar Hoover. Later, according to the Salt Lake Tribune( 11/16/2010) Hoover was spying on ETB for his rabid support of the John Birch society. Cleon Skousen, was also in the mix.
I had mentally checked out of the church when I was 12 years old when I realized that the Golden Plates story was simply ridiculous. But the support of ETB for the Viet Nam war taught me two things; 1. ETB was a bigot and a fool and 2. Discernment?
What discernment. America was not only defeated, but defeated ignominiously. So much for insight and discernment. Between this and the Mark Hoffman affair, I marched myself out of the church forever.
So, in retrospect, Thank you ETB, wherever you are or aren't. Ultimately your arrogance, stupidity, and mendacity led me out of the church.
Comments
At this time Ezra Taft Benson was on a rant about the dangers of communism, and his support of the John Birch society. Shades of Joseph McCarthy. ETB was a part-time friend and snitch for J. Edgar Hoover. Later, according to the Salt Lake Tribune( 11/16/2010) Hoover was spying on ETB for his rabid support of the John Birch society. Cleon Skousen, was also in the mix.
I had mentally checked out of the church when I was 12 years old when I realized that the Golden Plates story was simply ridiculous. But the support of ETB for the Viet Nam war taught me two things; 1. ETB was a bigot and a fool and 2. Discernment?
What discernment. America was not only defeated, but defeated ignominiously. So much for insight and discernment. Between this and the Mark Hoffman affair, I marched myself out of the church forever.
So, in retrospect, Thank you ETB, wherever you are or aren't. Ultimately your arrogance, stupidity, and mendacity led me out of the church.
Comments
Oh, and this about ETB also helped me confirm my decision to bolt the Cult:
"Efforts by LDS Church Apologists to Defend Ezra Taft Benson--Mormonism's Prophet, Seer and Race-baiter, 3 Parts (updated)":
Part 1: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247447,247447#msg-247447
Part 2: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247448,247448#msg-247448
Part 3: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247452
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2017 09:29PM by steve benson.
"Efforts by LDS Church Apologists to Defend Ezra Taft Benson--Mormonism's Prophet, Seer and Race-baiter, 3 Parts (updated)":
Part 1: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247447,247447#msg-247447
Part 2: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247448,247448#msg-247448
Part 3: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,247452
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2017 09:29PM by steve benson.
Hi Steve,
I hope you are not offended by my representation of your famous relative.
I have enjoyed for years your interesting and informative posts.
Brian
I hope you are not offended by my representation of your famous relative.
I have enjoyed for years your interesting and informative posts.
Brian
We should not have fought war in Vietnam, or any since.
But please clarify. Are you saying communism, with all the mass killings, was a good thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
But please clarify. Are you saying communism, with all the mass killings, was a good thing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
we had to destroy the village in order to save it.
. . . we shouldn't be involved in it (or any other foreign wars, for that matter), unless we went in with the intention and resources for winning it.
As a high schooler in the 1960s and 70s, I remember being at Boy Scout camp on the Texas-Oklahoma border tuning-in in my tent to the "kill reports" being confidently broadcast like clockwork by U.S. media, as they stacked up the enemy's bodies like imposing pyramids of confirming cordwood. The attitude was no less than that of Green Bay Packers coach Vince Lombardi who told his squads, "Winning isn't everything. Its's the only thing!"
I also recall energetically taking part in a high school speech class debate, where our team was assigned the task of defending the proposition that the U.S. could actually still win militarily in Vietnam (and this was 1971, four years shy of our wholesale, ignominious pullout, for gawds sake).
Ironically (and probably without even knowing it), ETB proved to be right: We couldn't win the Vietnam war. In fact, we shouldn't have even been in there in the first place. Just ask the "mighty" and "superior" Japanese and French colonial powers who were ingloriously booted out by those lowly, scrappy, infinitely patient, relentlessly determined, black pajama-clad Vietnamese who became famous for bicycling their way to victory carting supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Once the French left humiliated and empty-handed, arrogant America jumped in and, 50,000-plus KIAs later, it, too, retreated defeated as just another demoralized, deflated, ego-busted, vanquished imperialist foe,
Like Defense Secretary Robert McNamara (of "the best and the brightest" fame) eventually admitted in his mea culpa book, "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam," we couldn't win it. We never could have won it. And we never should have been in it.
Thanks, Grandpa. You were a prophet after all. Where were you when McNamara needed you most?
Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 11:56AM by steve benson.
As a high schooler in the 1960s and 70s, I remember being at Boy Scout camp on the Texas-Oklahoma border tuning-in in my tent to the "kill reports" being confidently broadcast like clockwork by U.S. media, as they stacked up the enemy's bodies like imposing pyramids of confirming cordwood. The attitude was no less than that of Green Bay Packers coach Vince Lombardi who told his squads, "Winning isn't everything. Its's the only thing!"
I also recall energetically taking part in a high school speech class debate, where our team was assigned the task of defending the proposition that the U.S. could actually still win militarily in Vietnam (and this was 1971, four years shy of our wholesale, ignominious pullout, for gawds sake).
Ironically (and probably without even knowing it), ETB proved to be right: We couldn't win the Vietnam war. In fact, we shouldn't have even been in there in the first place. Just ask the "mighty" and "superior" Japanese and French colonial powers who were ingloriously booted out by those lowly, scrappy, infinitely patient, relentlessly determined, black pajama-clad Vietnamese who became famous for bicycling their way to victory carting supplies down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Once the French left humiliated and empty-handed, arrogant America jumped in and, 50,000-plus KIAs later, it, too, retreated defeated as just another demoralized, deflated, ego-busted, vanquished imperialist foe,
Like Defense Secretary Robert McNamara (of "the best and the brightest" fame) eventually admitted in his mea culpa book, "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam," we couldn't win it. We never could have won it. And we never should have been in it.
Thanks, Grandpa. You were a prophet after all. Where were you when McNamara needed you most?
Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 11:56AM by steve benson.
Free man,
I didn't say anything about genocide, just that the Vietnam war was stupid and we lost.
Genocide precedes communism. Look at Leopold 2nd and the Congo at the turn of the century, or the Armenian massacres under the Ottoman Empire.
I didn't say anything about genocide, just that the Vietnam war was stupid and we lost.
Genocide precedes communism. Look at Leopold 2nd and the Congo at the turn of the century, or the Armenian massacres under the Ottoman Empire.
"Free man,
I didn't say anything about genocide, just that the Vietnam war was stupid and we lost.
Genocide precedes communism. Look at Leopold 2nd and the Congo at the turn of the century, or the Armenian massacres under the Ottoman Empire."
So genocide never happened under communist regimes? Apparently the whole history under the link I provided is wrong?
I just find it fascinating that those considered the crazy extremists are those who question extreme governments that kill millions. But as most in our country now believe, governments can do nothing wrong. Government is God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0&app=desktop
I didn't say anything about genocide, just that the Vietnam war was stupid and we lost.
Genocide precedes communism. Look at Leopold 2nd and the Congo at the turn of the century, or the Armenian massacres under the Ottoman Empire."
So genocide never happened under communist regimes? Apparently the whole history under the link I provided is wrong?
I just find it fascinating that those considered the crazy extremists are those who question extreme governments that kill millions. But as most in our country now believe, governments can do nothing wrong. Government is God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0&app=desktop
I don't know much about the Vietnam war, besides the idea that the right was worried over the expansion of Communism but more importantly (and less politically correct) the rise in power of Russia. We are dealing with the same tenseness these days with Putin, This is probably the main reason Hillary lost.
Conservatives (like Benson) thought that an ever expanding government would be bad for business, it would produce an entitled society, produce lazy uninnovated workers, welfare would grow, freedoms would disappear. Benson like others may have been concerned about civil rights, they didn't want to be "forced" to accommodate, They were worried about the future lgbtq movement that was just over the horizon. And everyone would now want to identify as lgbtq or a special snowflake and demand privileges for their lifestyles. (hence the shutting down of era by Kimball and others) Was robbing from the Rich to give to the poor the right thing?
Personally I don't see where Benson went wrong. It's capitalists that keep this country going, that keep America fed, that preserve the estate for future generations, not the impoverished poor people, with so many problems always demanding more help. I guess my question is has the liberal society that has resulted today, that Benson wanted to avoid, turned out to be better? And in what ways has this been better?
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2017 09:52AM by poopstone.
Conservatives (like Benson) thought that an ever expanding government would be bad for business, it would produce an entitled society, produce lazy uninnovated workers, welfare would grow, freedoms would disappear. Benson like others may have been concerned about civil rights, they didn't want to be "forced" to accommodate, They were worried about the future lgbtq movement that was just over the horizon. And everyone would now want to identify as lgbtq or a special snowflake and demand privileges for their lifestyles. (hence the shutting down of era by Kimball and others) Was robbing from the Rich to give to the poor the right thing?
Personally I don't see where Benson went wrong. It's capitalists that keep this country going, that keep America fed, that preserve the estate for future generations, not the impoverished poor people, with so many problems always demanding more help. I guess my question is has the liberal society that has resulted today, that Benson wanted to avoid, turned out to be better? And in what ways has this been better?
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2017 09:52AM by poopstone.
Another Ayn Rand heard from...
"I don't know much about the Vietnam war, besides the idea that the right was worried over the expansion of Communism"
"The right?" A Massachusetts liberal Democrat, John Kennedy, got us into Vietnam. Another Democrat, Lyndon Johnson, escalated it to its tragic level. A Republican, Richard Nixon, got us out of it.
"The right?" A Massachusetts liberal Democrat, John Kennedy, got us into Vietnam. Another Democrat, Lyndon Johnson, escalated it to its tragic level. A Republican, Richard Nixon, got us out of it.
. . . who, in the 1950s, had America step into the breach to replace the high-tailing, defeated French.
Look where that got us.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 08:52AM by steve benson.
Look where that got us.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 08:52AM by steve benson.
We now enjoy cautiously amicable relations with our former enemy, Vietnam. Building on our cooperation with the Vietnamese during WWII, we could have established that same quality of relations in the late 1940's, skipping the entire Vietnam war yet to come. Instead of driving the Vietnamese into the embrace of Communist China, we might have had some success in persuading them to adopt a less iron-fisted version of communism. We might have spent the war chest on infrastructure and aid for Vietnam.
One path led to a whole lot of misery; we unfortunately were not interested in any other.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2017 08:20AM by 3X.
One path led to a whole lot of misery; we unfortunately were not interested in any other.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2017 08:20AM by 3X.
he told me more than once that he regarded Eisenhower as being either a knowing Soviet agent or, at the very least, a dupe of the Communists.
Really, Grandpa?
You spent eight years as Ike's Secretary of Agriculture, meeting with him regularly in Cabinet meetings and other settings, while knowing all along that he was a Russian-fed Red? Why, then, didn't you quit his administration and blow the whistle on him in the name of God, Family and Country?
It was only after you left the Eisenhower Cabinet and were sucked in hook, line and sinker by the John Birch craziness of your oldest child, good ol' Uncle Reed--(who, undoubtedly, had a direct influence on the content of your notoriously nutty communist-conspiracy sermons delivered from the Taberknuckle-headed pulpit)--that you started spreading the word that Ike was a useful idiot and/or a closet Commie.
It was bad enough when, as a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, you were giving privately-complained-about heartburn to Mormon Church President David O. McKay and First Presidency counselor Hugh B. Brown--both who (along with others in the Church hierarchy) wished you would do them and the Church a favor by simply shutting up.
And please don't repeat to me your song-and-dance about how the Quorum of the Twelve was "the most unified body" of leaders you had ever seen in the world. You played a principal part in making sure that wasn't so.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 06:32AM by steve benson.
Really, Grandpa?
You spent eight years as Ike's Secretary of Agriculture, meeting with him regularly in Cabinet meetings and other settings, while knowing all along that he was a Russian-fed Red? Why, then, didn't you quit his administration and blow the whistle on him in the name of God, Family and Country?
It was only after you left the Eisenhower Cabinet and were sucked in hook, line and sinker by the John Birch craziness of your oldest child, good ol' Uncle Reed--(who, undoubtedly, had a direct influence on the content of your notoriously nutty communist-conspiracy sermons delivered from the Taberknuckle-headed pulpit)--that you started spreading the word that Ike was a useful idiot and/or a closet Commie.
It was bad enough when, as a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, you were giving privately-complained-about heartburn to Mormon Church President David O. McKay and First Presidency counselor Hugh B. Brown--both who (along with others in the Church hierarchy) wished you would do them and the Church a favor by simply shutting up.
And please don't repeat to me your song-and-dance about how the Quorum of the Twelve was "the most unified body" of leaders you had ever seen in the world. You played a principal part in making sure that wasn't so.
Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 06:32AM by steve benson.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 09:17AM by steve benson.
Benson was my favorite just because he seemed honorable and a good dude but I was just a kid back then so I don't know if my perspective was right but I know I didn't like anybody that followed him.
I wasn't around for ETB, but I'm confused.
OP, you said ETB's support for Vietnam led you to understand he had no discernment and was a "fool".
Steve, you said your gramps told you repeatedly Vietnam was a bad idea and unwinnable since we didn't commit the resources and resolve to actually win.
Did he say one thing publicly and another privately. If so, he wasn't being "honest with his fellow man."
If not, are one of you mis-remembering?
Ultimately I suppose it doesn't matter, as both the war and ETB are gone. But now I'm really curious.
OP, you said ETB's support for Vietnam led you to understand he had no discernment and was a "fool".
Steve, you said your gramps told you repeatedly Vietnam was a bad idea and unwinnable since we didn't commit the resources and resolve to actually win.
Did he say one thing publicly and another privately. If so, he wasn't being "honest with his fellow man."
If not, are one of you mis-remembering?
Ultimately I suppose it doesn't matter, as both the war and ETB are gone. But now I'm really curious.
All I know is what he told me, as I have reported it here.
Grandpa was a very frustrated guy.
I remember how he also told me (more than once) that he had warned Eisenhower (who had appointed him as Secretary of Agriculture) that Fidel Castro was not who the New York Times how described him as: "the George Washington of Cuba," but, rather, a subversive Marxist revolutionary under Moscow's control who was bad for his people and an existential threat to the United States.
He was quite perturbed that Eisenhower hadn't taken his advisory seriously, even after Castro overthrew the government of Cuba and installed a communist dictatorship. As he told me with exasperation, "They didn't listen to me. What did I know? I was just the Secretary of Agriculture, not the Secretary of State."
I've always thought, "If God could make Ezra Taft Benson an Apostle of the Lord and eventually the President–-hot damn--of The Kingdom of God on Earth, then why couldn't God make him the Secretary of State who presidents of the United States would listen to?"
Why is it that human beings always figure this stuff out before God does? It's another reason why i'm an ex-Mormon and an atheist.
Nice goin,' Grandpa. :)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 12:03PM by steve benson.
Grandpa was a very frustrated guy.
I remember how he also told me (more than once) that he had warned Eisenhower (who had appointed him as Secretary of Agriculture) that Fidel Castro was not who the New York Times how described him as: "the George Washington of Cuba," but, rather, a subversive Marxist revolutionary under Moscow's control who was bad for his people and an existential threat to the United States.
He was quite perturbed that Eisenhower hadn't taken his advisory seriously, even after Castro overthrew the government of Cuba and installed a communist dictatorship. As he told me with exasperation, "They didn't listen to me. What did I know? I was just the Secretary of Agriculture, not the Secretary of State."
I've always thought, "If God could make Ezra Taft Benson an Apostle of the Lord and eventually the President–-hot damn--of The Kingdom of God on Earth, then why couldn't God make him the Secretary of State who presidents of the United States would listen to?"
Why is it that human beings always figure this stuff out before God does? It's another reason why i'm an ex-Mormon and an atheist.
Nice goin,' Grandpa. :)
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2017 12:03PM by steve benson.
" ... and eventually the President–-hot damn--of The Kingdom of God on Earth ..."
I'm thinking of another Mormon who surely felt that vibe ...
I'm thinking of another Mormon who surely felt that vibe ...
I remember the consensus in my ward being, we could easily win the Viet Nam war but the politicians wouldn't let us. Benson was a hero among lots of them but some (like my mother) threatened to leave the church if he became profit. You either loved the guy or hated him. My dad liked him, my mom hated him.
My brush with greatness was ETB shaking my hand when I was a cub scout after carrying the flag at some kind of rally in the 60s. I wonder if it was a John Birch rally. Anyway, I had fond memories of ETB, he shook my hand and was really kind and grandfatherly toward me.
My brush with greatness was ETB shaking my hand when I was a cub scout after carrying the flag at some kind of rally in the 60s. I wonder if it was a John Birch rally. Anyway, I had fond memories of ETB, he shook my hand and was really kind and grandfatherly toward me.
About how we could have easily won in Vietnam but the politicians wouldn't let us: that's certainly the old, old story, isn't it.
In the movie "Rambo" (whatever), it cropped up when some government official told Sylvester Stallone that he was needed to carry out a secret mission in Vietnam, and he gave his visitor a drop-dead glare and said: "Do we get to win this time?"
Nowadays my business gets furniture with "Made in Vietnam" stamped on the bottom. And if one goes to Vietnam as a tourist, one may take tours of old battlefields and the famous Cu Chi tunnels with courteous, professional, Vietnamese guides, before returning to a four-star hotel at China Beach in time for cocktails and some fine Franco-Viet cuisine. Every smart young person wants to learn English and get into the global economy. Remind me the war was all about, again?
In the movie "Rambo" (whatever), it cropped up when some government official told Sylvester Stallone that he was needed to carry out a secret mission in Vietnam, and he gave his visitor a drop-dead glare and said: "Do we get to win this time?"
Nowadays my business gets furniture with "Made in Vietnam" stamped on the bottom. And if one goes to Vietnam as a tourist, one may take tours of old battlefields and the famous Cu Chi tunnels with courteous, professional, Vietnamese guides, before returning to a four-star hotel at China Beach in time for cocktails and some fine Franco-Viet cuisine. Every smart young person wants to learn English and get into the global economy. Remind me the war was all about, again?
Such an attitude of arrogance reveals their ignorance and disdain for the people, culture and history they think they can so readily crush, conquer and conceal.
When they predictably fail in these vainglorious pursuits, they angrily look around for scapegoats and invariably end up blaming "the politicians." Kind of like Joseph Smith and his band of fellow tinpot blowhard tyrants blamed the U.S. government for their failure to defeat the evil indigenous "gentiles."
Oh, and the vanquished invaders also pathetically invoke the fictional likes of "Rambo (whatever)" as their fantasy-world role models for the "victories" that end up eluding them in the real world.
Soldier on, Marvel Comics crusaders.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 11:01PM by steve benson.
When they predictably fail in these vainglorious pursuits, they angrily look around for scapegoats and invariably end up blaming "the politicians." Kind of like Joseph Smith and his band of fellow tinpot blowhard tyrants blamed the U.S. government for their failure to defeat the evil indigenous "gentiles."
Oh, and the vanquished invaders also pathetically invoke the fictional likes of "Rambo (whatever)" as their fantasy-world role models for the "victories" that end up eluding them in the real world.
Soldier on, Marvel Comics crusaders.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2017 11:01PM by steve benson.