He bought it.

Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can tell the difference between paying a debt vs. buying a debt.

If jesus had paid my debt, then the debt would be paid. Period. Whether or not i acknowledged it, or thanked him, or whatever, it wouldn't matter. There would be no more debt hanging over my head.

If jesus got mad that i didn't thank him profusely and wanted to punish me for it, it would be tough luck. He couldn't get a refund!

But this is what christians teach: that the debt is still hanging over my head. At the very least, the rock bottom requirement in christianity is that I believe in Jesus, and if I don't, it will be like there was no jesus in the first place.

But wait, how could that be? Because jesus didn't pay my debt; he bought it.

Jesus is just another collection agency. The original creditor doesn't call me anymore but jesus sure does. Not personally, of course, he would never make himself known to me. Instead he uses all his minions. The result is the same.

Jesus Inc. - Cosmic Collections



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2017 01:37AM by kvothe.

I suppose that's one way to look at it.

If you follow the New Testament, it's more like he bought you.

In essence, we got sold via original sin (Or if LDS, via your sin) and we have no money to pay our way out of slavery.

So, he paid to get us. However, he lets us choose whether we will follow him off the plantation, or if we'll stay right where we are.

It's our choice to follow him or not...but he's bought us from our sinful masters...but he's not going to force us to accept it if we don't want to.

Or at least, that's my Never-mo perspective.

Unless of course you are a Christian Universalist like myself. Christ paid the debt. There is no debt left to pay. Eventually, everyone is going to understand this and accept it willingly whether in this life or the next. Through Christ God has included everyone in salvation not because of who we are, but because of who He is.

Everyone? Even Hitler?

All means all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html#3.

So, no matter how much suffering a person causes, they get a free pass?

No thanks, I don't really want to be in a place that accepts the likes of Hitler. I would not want to be around them in life, I certainly do not want to be around them for eternity. I kinda wonder why you would want to be around those kind of people.




Hope I don't have much to do with people of you faith.

Tell that to the parents of a little girl or little boy who got raped and killed by some monster.

It's funny when you folks state your fantasies as if they were facts. :)

Like Patti Smith said, "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine...My sins are my own."


I'm no Jacob Marley. The chains I've earned with my petty crimes in the mortal coil will likely hang on my neck as lightly as the gold plated Kmart bling that I wore here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2017 06:05AM by donbagley.

The idea that Jesus died for my sins is, in my opinion, immoral.

I have not done anything that would justify a death sentence. Putting me to death for my sins would be a miscarriage of justice and immoral.

Someone else dying for my sins is even worse. They are my sins and I should be the one accountable.

The whole Jesus died for your sins thing is a manipulative way to guilt (maybe not the best word) people into adopting Christianity

imoral Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Putting me to death for my sins
> would be a miscarriage of justice and immoral.

No, in standard Christianity, you're brought back to life and tortured for your sins. Leaving you dead would be getting off easy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2017 10:08PM by Stray Mutt.

"Never let a perfectly good crucifixion go to waste" I always say.

Unless, of course, he died *because* of the sins of mankind. Namely, the sins of those who hold damnation over innocent men's heads as a coercion tactic, and the sins of those who view religion as a tool to control the masses. People like Jesus or John, MLK or anyone who hold the abusers responsible always get killed by the power brokers.

As for debt, only the religious power brokers ever talk about it. When it comes to benefits of religious debts, nothing speaks louder than all that yummy meat being cooked on the priest's altars. And tithing, of course.

I take your point, OP, and it's a good one. Repay new owner as stipulated, or roast in hell.

Then Jesus bundled up those debts and supposedly sold them to the mormon church. At least that's how the mormon church sees it. There's nothing like soul-backed securities to make someone rich. It's no wonder why they call it a "sole corporation". I remember being taught from the pulpet that no one would enter the celesrial kingdom without permission from Joseph Smith. How did a treasure-hunter/gold-digger/child-molester ever get his hands on those notes? Could it be complete fraud?

What "debt?"

I sometimes, though rarely, do things that harm other people. I try really hard not to, but sometimes I do.
When I do, I try to make amends to those people -- to pay my own "debt."

I don't owe imaginary Elohim or imaginary Jesus anything. There's no debt to pay or to purchase. I'm responsible for my own "sins," and for dealing with them.

Not only is the entire thing made-up nonsense, it's stupid made-up nonsense. It's a "get out of jail free" card where there's no jail, and it's only for people too lazy or scared or whatever to take responsibility for themselves. Yeah, let's pretend some man-god thing had himself killed so that I don't have to apologize when I do stupid things, or pay back the money I stole, because I'm magically forgiven. Stupid.

Thanks ificouldhietokolob you saved me time from typing out the same thought.

Papa Smurf paid for my sins. Cuz, you know, the Fantastic Four were sending me to collections. I would have had to deal with Skeletor.

Cartoon Jesus is just as real as Batman or Superman or any other cartoon character. The belief in any kind of a god is mind numbing. There never has been what one would call a god except for the character Q on the show Star Trek.

All of the religious versions of a god require humans to do their god like magic. Not a single religious or cartoon type god can do anything on their own.

If you believe in a god then follow the yellow brick road but do not look at the man behind the curtain.

If there really was a Hell, it would be wasteful and pointless.

Heaven and hell are both right here. All you have to do is create them. Mormonism sells a nice fake heaven.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2017 03:14AM by steve benson.

I think you are right on the money. The problem is that is traditional Christianity, the original debt was created for us by God and Jesus (who is also God) bought it for us. In essence, the debt never transfers from the originator/creator of the debt.

In Mormonism which teaches God and Jesus are separate beings (but united in "purpose) the scenario is essentially the same because Jesus works for/colludes with God and so the transfer of the debt is like moving it from one department or office to another.

Wow! We should all be so grateful that God saddled us a debt and then created the illusion that it had been paid by creating a proxy-self in Jesus. This should make us happy to sacrifice any and everything to God and Jesus for the debt he gave for us.

This is the way I look at it. A guy gets shot and killed in his own home by an intruder. The police start questioning everybody and finally decide it was the son who is kept up all night being peppered with questions until he confesses. Goes to jail for life to "pay the debt."

Forty years later, the son is cleared by DNA and let out of jail, his life destroyed.

The debt was not paid. No justice was served. No reparations were made. The son in jail simply could not "pay the debt." On top of that, the real killer couldn't have paid the debt by going to prison either.

People do horrible things to each other. Horrible atrocities. they are vile and hurt, and steal, and connive,and bully to the point of suicide.

But Jesus hung on the cross for a couple of days and all 88 Billion people who have ever lived on this planet have had their debt paid? Every bit of negative action is wiped clean by saying, "I accept Jesus?"

Bull. Crosses. Jails. They don't pay debts. They don't reimburse. They don't fix. They have nothing to do with the damage from the original ugly deed.


I don't want anyone paying my debts. I want to make reparations. It's what decent people do. I want to feel sorrow and guilt. It is part of the human experience. I never ever want to be one of those vacuous shallow people skipping though life chanting, "I'm Saved. I'm Saved. I'm Saved."

If I opened a bank account in your name and put $1,000 in it for you to withdraw any time you wanted and you failed to do so, whose fault is that? Mine or yours.

I think what you meant to say, is that if you opened an account and put in $1,000 and I failed to withdraw it, then you tortured me in your basement for not withdrawing it, whose fault is that?

Why not give the whole scenario if you're going to be honest about it?

It's actually worse than that. The scenario is more like...

A bank owner opens accounts for everyone, then immediately withdraws $1000 from every account, starting everyone out in debt.

If you know about the account, you can go to the banker and sing his praises and suck up to him and hope that he'll clear the debt, that he created. (depending on the religion, you may be able to pay some of it back, or you may be entirely reliant on the whims of the banker)

If you don't suck up to him, he sends the cops and locks you up for eternity in a prison that delights in torture, with no way to pay him back after that, once you're in prison, that's where you are forever.

Even worse, the bank owner only bothers to tell a select few about the accounts, meaning that the vast majority of people don't know about it... To those he does tell about it, he gives vague confusing rules on what he wants people to do to clear the debt that he created.

The whole thing is a big protection scheme... According to most of Christianity, we start out as sinners and spend our lives trying to be worthy of forgiveness... Otherwise our loving spiritual father will torture us for eternity for the debt that he started us out with.

He didn't buy the debt, he isn't paying it back. He created it and is deciding if he should clear it or not.

No thank you, my faults, and only my faults, are my own and I'll deal with them myself. I don't need an invented "sin" or savoir from those "sins".

"The whole thing is a big protection scheme..."

That was the best explantation I have ever heard for this atonement nonsense.

I love this comparison!

"Mama may have, and Papa may have, but God bless the child that's got his own . . . that's got his own."

Unless one is disabled, I find that being given unearned money destroys incentive and generally ruins lives. There is an endless list of the kids of super rich parents to support this. We only appreciate what we have worked hard for ourselves. No one appreciates a job well done as much as the person who did it.

That is true at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, as well as the top. A long time ago, maybe around 1990, I came across an article that itemized what a single parent with three children would get in housing (free or subsidized), food stamps, general welfare, AFDC, health care, free education, etc. etc. etc. The writer computed that the person received the equivalent of an income in the low $60K's--and this was over 20 years ago!

I have been in lots and lots (lots!) of public housing apartments. I see very comfortable homes, with mostly nice cars parked outside. Why should anybody forfeit all this for a real career?

Your tax dollars at work.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Mama may have, and Papa may have, but God bless
> the child that's got his own . . . that's got his
> own."
>
> Unless one is disabled, I find that being given
> unearned money destroys incentive and generally
> ruins lives. There is an endless list of the kids
> of super rich parents to support this. We only
> appreciate what we have worked hard for ourselves.
> No one appreciates a job well done as much as the
> person who did it.

Well, Done & done,
I AM disabled , however, the money I receive is NOT unearned money. I have worked my entire life and contributed to social security, which is where disability payments are calculated, and from where payments are disbursed!

It is social security disability although usually a slightly lesser amount than if you wait until retirement age to start withdrawing 'regular' social security. So yes, I have worked for the little income I receive since becoming disabled at age 59, due to a stroke.

Cinda--My only intention in using that phrase was to not include those in circumstances such as yourself in what I was saying. I know there are all kinds of circumstances that do not fit with my point and I had no intention of denigrating yours or anyone else's situation. Those who need a little aid or a lot of it should get it and not be thought lesser because of it. I was talking about spoiled rich kids and their ilk.

My point was specifically about children being given huge amounts of money by parents when they have done nothing to earn it. Often there is no appreciation and the money is used frivolously in an entitled manner rather than used to build something. I was making a comparison between that type of circumstance and the Atonement which to me is very similar.

My apologies if my wording wasn't all that it should have been. I probably haven't yet explained myself well, but there was no negativity meant to those with some challenges.

It's Cinda's fault for not reading correctly. You specifically said, "unless one is disabled."

kentish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I opened a bank account in your name and put
> $1,000 in it for you to withdraw any time you
> wanted and you failed to do so, whose fault is
> that? Mine or yours.

Show me that the bank, the account, and the money exist.
Then I'll withdraw it.

Until then, I don't believe you put anything anywhere for anyone.

Exactly.

Not only that, it's probably a phishing scheme to get your bank account number. :-)

We all know Jesus is very bad with money. He always needs yours.

You too can be rich....in the next life. Pay now!