Yesterday, for some strange reason, Palmyra and the sacred grove popped into my head. I went there sometime in the late 90s with the single's ward. We saw The Hill Cumorah Pageant, did some sight-seeing, and went into the woods aka the sacred grove. As I thought back to how disappointed I was with the experience, I realized that that was my first major doubt. I'm talking big time major doubt. All other doubts before that were, meh, whatever, I can live with that. The church promised a spiritual experience, but nothing happened. Nothing. I've gotten a bigger case of the warm fuzzies walking in the woods back home than I did walking there. It was in that moment I started saying to myself, not in very clear language mind you, that this was utter horseshit. I quickly repressed the doubt like all the others until I couldn't keep them down any longer and they all came up like vomit. Can't ignore that. It's strange to me now, sort of like those years as a mormon happened to someone else, not me. Weird.

Yes, I know what you mean.
When I went to the "sacred" grove, I was struck by how it was just your average grove of trees. Like those I grew up with.

Because my expectations were so high because it was "sacred", I missed out on the opportunity of enjoying a pretty grove of trees for it's own beauty.

What? Bees weren't humming? Sweet birds weren't singing? Rapture didn't fill your bosom?

That can also happen in other settings too. Lemme tell ya a story. Many years ago a college friend & I were on a long road trip. We'd arrived in Massachusetts for a Red Sox game that evening, and we had a day to kill. We decided to visit Plymouth Rock. Pilgrims and all, y'know? Living history.

Well, we got there and made our way out to the Rock, lying on a stony beach under a modest wooden shelter. I guess I was expecting something impressive, like an outcropping of the shoreline, where our intrepid refugees disembarked from the Mayflower. Instead, it was… a rock. It was just a large rock. My recollection is that it seemed about 12-15 feet long, maybe 3 feet wide, rounded at the ends, with "1620 A.D." carved into it. We stood at each end of the rock, looked down at it, then looked at each other and said the exact same thing: "That's IT?"

Serious letdown. We returned to the car, found a restaurant and ate some amazing clam chowder, so the day wasn't a total loss.

Thanx for the laugh.
My visit to Plymouth Rock turned out the same exact way.

We know with a reasonable degree of certainty the actual history of Plymouth Rock. From Wiki:

"Plymouth Rock...had lain at the foot of Cole's Hill from generation to generation until the century after the Pilgrims' landing in 1620. In 1741, the residents of Plymouth began plans to build a wharf at the Pilgrims' landing site. A 94 year-old elder of the church named Thomas Faunce, then living three miles from the spot, declared that he knew the precise boulder on which the Mayflower pilgrims first stepped when disembarking.[5] The standard story is recounted in the 1897 book The Story of the Pilgrim Fathers:

The real Plymouth Rock was a boulder about fifteen feet long and three feet wide which lay with its point to the east, thus forming a convenient pier for boats to land during certain hours of tide. This rock is authenticated as the pilgrims' landing place by the testimony of Elder Faunce who in 1741 at the age of ninety-five was carried in a chair to the rock, that he might pass down to posterity the testimony of pilgrims whom he had personally known on this important matter."

It broke in two when it was being moved, and souvenir hunters have hacked and chipped pieces off over the years, so it was considerably diminished before it was ensconced in its (marble) display shed.

But there's no telling exactly where the "Sacred Grove" is.

Confusion over property and municipal boundary lines, relocated streets and the like make the actual grove JS identified very problematic. At least we know for a certainty that the Plymouth Brethren did land

We know for sure, and with considerable detail, what happened in 1620 in Massachusetts. Governor Bradford kept a meticulous diary, recording everything, the good and the bad. Not so in 1820 in Palmyra, or Manchester.

Yes, the description actually was at the border with Macedon and given that it was at a high point - not where we are shown, I would submit that it was, in fact, a few feet inside Macedon. But, we must also remember that it is entirely a fictional account. The only reason to conclude that it was actually a few feet into Macedon is because a murderer figured it was and dropped off a body in Macedon. I had a similar non-inspiring visit to the spot that John the Baptist appeared and the baptisms of JS and Cowdery supposedly took place. That is, absolutely zero feeling. as that event, also, is fiction.

I should note that I have had religious feelings, just not at those places nor in any Mo temple. Good Lord, I tried. But the nearest I came were the feelings of darkness, not light. Yet, even down at the seashore I can feel the spirit of God.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2017 11:31AM by rhgc.

Yes, very much like going through the secret temple rituals for the first time.

"That's IT?"

"You must move along quickly--there's another group coming through."

I went there in 2001, I thought the farm was very nice and the grove,while not special was nice. A friend of mine put some dirt and a small sapling in his pocket to take home. Now he has a small tree growing in his backyard from the "Sacred Grove"...

Hey, don't knock the Sacred Grove!

One TBM argued to me that the Sacred Grove proved that Joseph Smith DID have that "First Vision" - this Mormon testified to me that he had actually BEEN there and SEEN it. Therefore, the First Vision really happened.

So much for Mormon logic! Richard, I appreciate your humor.

and New York City actually exists therefore spiderman is real.

It's the same with biblical archeology.

Visit the Mountain Meadows Massacre site. Read the descriptions. You'll have a spiritual experience, but it won't be positive.

They are connected also by a serial killer who dropped off the body of MMM in Macedon, NY.

laurad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We saw The Hill Cumorah Pageant, did some
> sight-seeing, and went into the woods aka the
> sacred grove. As I thought back to how
> disappointed I was with the experience, I realized
> that that was my first major doubt.

......OK, I am making an assumption here, but going by what you said, you must not have gone through the EPIC disappointment of the temple endowment prior to this time .....

Due to all of the propagandist pre endowment hype from others, I really thought that I was going to have some kind of divine manifestation in the temple. Instead, All I got was being molested, a stupid movie, some stupid secret handshakes and brutal graphic threats on my life IF I did not keep quiet about the matter.

Then I was so god damn DUMB that I went out and sold that crap, even as it was basically unmentionable, on a full time basis for 2 years for the same POS criminal organization posing as a church that had done such a horrible thing to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLaJLX0EFM

No, I had actually just been through the temple not too long before this trip. Mine was post throat slashing so it wasn't all that bad. Sorry you had a horrible experience, though it's not surprising, sadly.

I seem to recall that even the church admits that the current "sacred grove" is a grove that was planted or restored by the church. The Smith's lost the farm, moved away and the original was chopped down and utilized in normal growth and expansion. When the church acquired the property, the current grove was planted or located in the location where it is today.

I remember having an experience very similar to yours when I was a tbm but it was at the Johnson Farm which is a location the church owns outside of Kirkland and where Horny Joe was pulled out of the home in the middle of the night to be tarred and feathered - where Smith allegedly received multiple "revelations" that are now sections from the D&C, most notably the "revelation" on the three degrees of glory which is section 76.

I served my mission in Columbus, OH but Kirtland wasn't part of the boundaries so I returned to visit my mission about a year later and did a subsequent tour of church history locations that I had been so close to but forbidden to visit because of mission boundaries. I visited multiple locations in the Kirtland area but remember the Johnson farm more. The tour guide/senior missionary took me to the room where section 76 was "revealed" and of course bore his testimony about Smith and the revelation on the three degrees of glory. He then said I would obviously feel the sacredness of the room and he would be quiet for a few minutes because the room was so holy and the holy ghost would again manifest all of this to me. He stayed in the room with me, it was quiet and awkward. I felt absolutely nothing except surprised I felt nothing in this obviously sacred space. The guide asked me to bear testimony of the sacred room after the silence. I don't remember what I said but I do remember my shelf getting a little heavier that day.

This explains why I felt nothing. I was in the wrong grove. bwahahaha

And man I couldn't even imagine standing there expecting to bare testimony after that. So wrong.

But if the grove is truly sacred, TBMs shouldn't be talking about it at all.

Reminds me of the first time at the temple and when it was all over I sat in the Celestial room that looked like a hotel lobby and the Peggy Lee song, "Is that all there is?" popped into my head.

Is that all there is to the grove?
Is that all there is to the temple?
Is that all there is to the church?


I realized one day all my feelings regarding Mormonism were manufactured.

Well, I went there once, so it's probably best to call in an exorcist. Joseph's Boner.

I visited the "not so sacred" grove and was eaten alive by mosquitos. Not a happy memory. Maybe it was a sign that the church is a blood sucking scam. I should have pondered the implication more deeply.

I travelled hundred of miles to New York to stare at a grove of pretty trees. Still they were quite pretty but when people asked "Do you feel the spirit here?" I said yes, but in reality all I thought was how lovely and nice the trees were. It was quiet and peaceful but in the end so is the forest down the road and its a shorter trip. I got to see some nice places though so I am not complaining. (Mainly cause I didn't pay a dime for it!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2017 10:17AM by lifefromanewview.