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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 02:58PM

That is 2 questions, was polygamy legal

And was marrying a girl as young as 14 legal.

LDS.org says it was.

I'm responding on Facebook to my bil

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:04PM

From the essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" on lds.org.


"In Joseph Smith’s time, monogamy was the only legal form of marriage in the United States."

Translation, polygamy was illegal. His only legal wife was Emma.

Not sure, but I think a 14 year old could get married but it was rare.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:14PM

was more common back then. Actually, puberty actually occurs earlier today than in 1843, and it was probably very uncommon for a 38-year-old to get married to 14-year-old even back then.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:23PM

The marriage age was about 19 to 23 or so.

Child marriages were rare and considered low and disreputable. Puberty doesn't mean a girl is ready for marriage. What a lowlife assumption.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:33PM

Just an age point of reference.

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:41PM

I didn't read into Rus' answer that he thinks puberty means a girl is ready for marriage, just that younger marriages were even less common then partly because of puberty.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:46PM


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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 04:02PM

Is it possible you mis-read this sentence?

"Some TBMs try to argue getting married that young...

was more common back then."

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Posted by: Ex-cultmember ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 04:37PM

I think the point about puberty was that TBM's might argue girls were more "mature" back then but the fact that pubert was reached at a later age in the 1800's is even more shocking when is more likely they were pre-pubescent at that age, back then.

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Posted by: Ex-cultmember ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 08:17PM

I don't think any of us her do. It just illustrates how sick the practice is that a 14 year old is young enough to not even reach puberty at that age

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 04:40AM

than early ones in Joe's day.

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Posted by: moira ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 12:22AM

I was extremely surprised when reading through my extensive family genealogy that all of the women got married in their 20's. The age dropped only in the last 50 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2017 12:22AM by moira.

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:20PM

It might have been that a 14 year old had to get a parent's permission before getting married, but even if they didn't need such permission, it was still rare. According to census and other records of the time period, the average age for marriage was 19 for both genders. Polygamy has never been legal during any point in the US, so the only legal wife Smith had was Emma.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 04:22PM by adoylelb.

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Posted by: anonculus ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 12:23AM

The lower age was so teen couples who got "in trouble" could get married. In puritan minds, this was a common way for a family to salvage some dignity in a difficult situation. Sometimes the boy needed extra "encouragement" from a shotgun.

Notice I'm speaking in terms of a teenage girl and her teenage boyfriend whom she actually loves...NOT a frickin' 38 year old married man.

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:39PM

no matter what the age was, polygamy itself was illegal.

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Posted by: TXRancher ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 10:55PM

Best answer!

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 01:02AM

:)

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Posted by: Betty G ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 03:49PM

Polygamy was illegal.

Up until around 25 years ago, it was STILL legal in some US states to get married at age 14. In many instances they needed parental permission, but they could get married.

I knew a 15 year old who got married (very tragic, to a much older man, eventually ended in divorce but I think it messed up that girl mentally for a while).

The question wouldn't be whether it was legal, but whether it was ethical. I think most would say today that a much older gentleman marrying someone who was 14 is unethical, but I do not know enough about that time period to say what the thoughts on the subject were.

It is possible that it was common for girls from 14 on up to be married at a very young age (I know the marriage age has gone up considerably, even since when I was a young lady), but in regards to the actual history of that time period, I am ignorant as I really haven't studied marriage laws or marriage during that time period.

However, I am of the opinion that polygamy was illegal, and if it was not, than it was most certainly viewed as unethical by most of the Christians (who at the time were the majority of the population) who occupied the US at the time.

Isn't that part of the reason why the LDS church fled to Utah and were able to practice polygamy as they wanted (at least for a while) there?

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 04:06PM

Nor in my day and I grew up in the 1950s. At that time a few teen girls married and it was considered wrong and very low class. These marriages I saw were very unhappy ones.

Women marry in their late twenties and thirties now. This was not a continuous evolution from pioneer days. The current trend stems more from the Women's movement and the scientific advances in birth control which allows for more sexual experience before marriage.

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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 04:08PM

Polyandry has never been legal, in any civilized society. Even the Mormons own "Law of the Priesthood" condemns it as adultery, a point Mormons dont want to even consider. Valid nonetheless.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 04:48PM

I don't think it was legal, even back then, for a married man to
use his position of authority to coerce a 14-year-old child into
a secret, illicit relationship and then lie about it publicly.

Hope this helps

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Posted by: rhgc ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 05:24PM

The question is easily answered so far as having multiple wives: Joseph Smith faced charges in Illinois for bigamy, which were still outstanding when he died. He was a lawbreaker. Indeed, claiming falsely to be a prophet condemns him to ...... not to being in heaven planning for the brethren.

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Posted by: Kathleen nli ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 05:50PM

Generally, by the time pedophiles are caught, they have done much worse than they were ever charged with.

I seriously doubt that 14-year olds were his youngest victims; and if his sisters could talk today, what they would say? Family pets are often victimized as well.

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Posted by: robinsaintcloud ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 06:05PM

When one or more of BY's wives attempted to go through the courts for financial support, his response was, to paraphrase, well, we were never legally married, so..................

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Posted by: readwrite ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 08:12PM

NO! Of course not. That's why it was done in SECRET/ (sacred).

That's also why he (and the followers) was always on the run. They weren't walking you know.

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Posted by: Sethro Tull ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 08:45PM

I'm of the opinion that this is at least partially why The Penalties were implemented in the temple.
Scary throat/bodily injury stuff to keep people quiet.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 08:54PM

Hey, look, if an angel threatens you, you'll do whatever God commands you.

And if you're the Prophet of the Restoration, and God "prompts" you to go after a nubile 14 year-old, you gotta go for it.

I'm sure Honest TBM will illuminate more....

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 10:18PM

It was rare for a 14 year old to marry even then. But if she did she married someone close to her age not a man old enough to be her father and already married. The marriage was not kept secret from family and friends.

When asked how I was "offended", I respond that Smith used his power as her church leader to coerce a young girl into a sexual relationship. How are you not offended by that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 10:18PM by caedmon.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 01:02AM

If I was living in IL, close to the capitol, I would dig the then-current archives of statutes... Not that any TBMs would care.


Joe & Briggy were Always above the law, ya know; the rest were only copying them, including racism, misogyny, & playing Hide The Pea with the members...

Finding the answer for the legality question in Utah would be a bit more of a challenge, especially for the time between the saints arrival & when utah became a part of the U.S. (purchase or treaty / Mexico), including the time after Utah became a territory.

Remember, the U.S.congress withheld - delayed statehood until they were 'certain' the polyg situation (& a bit of the MMM) were 'resolved'; Utah was near the last of the 48.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2017 01:09AM by GNPE.

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Posted by: ericka ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 01:51AM

Polygamy
Polyandry
Bigamy
Incest
Pedophilia

All of those things were illegal then, and still are. There are no loop holes. No ages that make it ok.
If you were into any of these on any level, male or female between the 1700's to 2017, it was and is illegal. I don't know why people have such a difficult time with that.

The only thing I can think of is they are trying to save the reputation of some horny ancestor that doesn't deserve a saved reputation.

Trying to save the reputation of a young teenage girl? That's easy. She was a victim of criminal sexual assault. That's the bottom line. No church words waved over her head fixes it. She was most likely a sex slave/hostage with no place else to run with her children. The mormon church grieves for those good old days when they could hold women hostage and trade them like cattle.

The law caught up with them, and was very kind in my opinion. They tried to not traumatize the women and kids more than they already were. It was too late. So much damage done. I think there are many mormon women that are just now climbing out of the prison mormonism has been holding them in.

Some are realizing they don't have to marry anyone. They don't have to have kids to be 'OK'. They can go to school and learn things they never thought were possible. They can be whatever they aspire to. They can use a sperm bank and leave a man out to the picture. The times have changed. Mormon women are just realizing we don't have to stay in the cages Joe built for us.

No more imprisonment. No more ruling over womens uterus. No more ruling over womens time, talents, religion, love, finances, and future, and how she's going to manage time to be a part of the people she loves, or extricate herself from the people who do't have her best interest in mind.


The only people(?) who would argue with this would be people who don't have the girls/womens best interests in mind. They only want their so called heavenly payoff at someone else's expense. Either that or they want the person to use as the person will allow it. How long will that be? What of the children that come from the arrangement. What becomes of them?

I view the whole concept as a cancer. It's a cancer on the souls of young innocent children who don't understand what they're being used for. The cancer moves through the generations and poisons the future for decades. It's evil.There's a reason its illegal. Ignore that, and watch the chaos grow.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 05:00AM

. . . but, to the precise point, was it illegal under the law of Smith's time period? It is close to creepy that Mormon Church water-carriers argue that marrying 14-year-old children was not illegal (which, by their desperate rationalizations, apparently would make such marriages acceptable and decreed in the lustful eyes of their polygamous Mormon God).

Below are arguments from both sides:

A. Mormon Church Claims That Marrying a 14-year-old Girl in Joseph Smith's Day Legally Fit Within the Frame of "Approaching Eligibility" but Such an Assertion Has Significant Historical Problems

"Many LDS Church leaders and historians suggest that sexual relations and the marriage of Joseph Smith and his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball, 14 at the time, was "approaching eligibility."

"There is no documentation to support the idea that marriage at 14 was 'approaching eligibility." Actually, marriages even two years later, at the age of 16, occurred occasionally but infrequently in Helen Mar's culture. Thus, girls marrying at 14 , even 15, were very much out of the ordinary. 16 was comparatively rare, but not unheard of. American women began to marry in their late teens; around different parts of the United States the average age of marriage varied from 19 to 23.

"In the United States the average age of menarche (first menstruation) dropped from 16.5 in 1840 to 12.9 in 1950. More recent figures indicate that it now occurs on average at 12.8 years of age. The mean age of first marriages in colonial America was between 19.8 years to 23.7, Most women were married during the age period of peak fecundity (fertility).

"Mean pubertal age has declined by some 3.7 years from the 1840’s.

"The psychological sexual maturity of Helen Mar Kimball in today’s average age of menarche (first menstruation) would put her psychological age of sexual maturity at the time of the marriage of Joseph Smith at 9.1 years old. (16.5 years-12.8 years =3.7 years) (12.8 years-3.7 years=9.1 years)

"The fact is Helen Mar Kimball's sexual development was still far from complete. Her psychological sexual maturity was not competent for procreation. The coming of puberty is regarded as the termination of childhood; in fact the term child is usually defined as the human being from the time of birth to the on-coming of puberty. Puberty the point of time at which the sexual development is completed. In young women, from the date of the first menstruation to the time at which she has become fitted for marriage, the average lapse of time is assumed by researchers to be two years.

"Age of eligibility for women in Joseph Smith’s time-frame would start at a minimum of 19 ½ years old.

"This would suggest that Joseph Smith had sexual relations and married several women before the age of eligibility, and some very close to the age of eligibility including:

"Fanny Alger 16

"Sarah Ann Whitney 17

"Lucy Walker 17

"Flora Ann Woodworth 16

"Emily Dow Partridge 19

"Sarah Lawrence 17

"Maria Lawrence 19

"Helen Mar Kimball 14

"Melissa Lott 19

"Nancy M. Winchester [14?]

"And then we have these testimonies:

"Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this.' (Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in 'Salt Lake Tribune,' July 31, 1887)

"When Heber C. Kimball asked Sister Eliza R. Snow the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith, she replied, 'I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that.' (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives)

"Short Bios of Smith's wives:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org

"Did Smith have sex with his wives?:

http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm


"Whatever the average age of menarche might have been in the mid 19th-century, the average age of marriage was around 20 for women and 22 for men. And a gap of 15 to 20 years or more between partners was very unusual, not typical. Whatever biology might have to say, according to the morals of his time, several of Joseph Smith's wives were still inappropriately young for him.

"It is a pure myth that 19th-century American girls married at age 12-14.

"For example, Laura Ingalls Wilder, from 'Little House on the Prairie' fame, was born in 1867, which puts her later than Joseph Smith but still in the 1800s. She tells of hearing of the marriage of a 13-year-old girl, and being shocked. She also notes that the girl's mother 'takes in laundry,' and is sloppy and unkempt--implying that 'nice' people don't marry off their teenaged daughters. Laura, herself, became engaged at 17--but her parents asked her to wait until she was 18 to marry.

"You merely need to go to your local courthouse and ask to see the old 19th century marriage books. Take a look at and pay attention to the age at marriage. Sure a very few did, but it was far from the norm. The vast majority of women married after the age of 20.

"In fact, look up the marriage ages in the Smith family before polygamy. You'll find that one of the Smith girls was 19. The rest of them, and their sisters-in-law, were in their early 20s when they married. The Smith boys' first wives were in their 20s. The same pattern was true for the various branches of my family and the rest of American society at the time.

"On the extremely rare occasions women younger than 17 married, it was to men close to their same age, not 15 to 20 years older.

"The case is even true in pioneer Utah among first marriages. Mormon men in their twenties started out marrying someone their own age. Then later these older men married girls under twenty to be their plural wives. But the first wives were the age of the husband and married over the age of twenty. This is still the case is the rural Utah polygamist communities.

"References:

"Coale and Zelnik assume a mean age of marriage for white women of 20 (1963: 37). . . .

[The next source listed is deleted here because an unknown "banned word" problem prevents this post from otherwise being allowed up on the RfM discussion board; click on the article's link to retrieve that source.]

"The Massachusetts family reconstitutions revealed somewhat higher mean ages. For Hingham, Smith reports an age at first marriage of 23.7 at the end of the 18th century (1972: Table 3, p. 177).

"For Sturbridge, the age for a comparable group was 22.46 years (Osterud and Fulton 1976: Table 2, p. 484), in Franklin County it was 23.3 years (Temkin-Greener, H., and A.C. Swedlund. 1978. 'Fertility Transition in the Connecticut Valley:1740-1850.' in 'Population Studies' 32 (March 1978):27-41.: Table 6, p. 34).

"Jack Larkin, 'The Reshaping of Everyday Life, 1790-1840' (New York: Harper & Row, 1988), 63; Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, 'Good Wives: Image and Reality in the Lives of Women in Northern New England, 1650-1750' (NY: Oxford University Press, 1980), 6; Nancy F. Cott, 'Young Women in the Second Great Awakening in New England,' in 'Feminist Studies' 3 (1975): 16. Larkin writes,

"Dr. Dorothy V. Whipple, 'Dynamics of Development: Euthenic Pediatrics' (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1966)

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/teen_polygamy.htm

_____


B. The Mormon Church Claims That Smith's Marriage to 14-year-o;d Helen Mar Kimball was Legal

"An LDS Church essay on the question, claims that Smith's marriage to Helan Mar Kimball was, in fact, legal in its day:

"One essay acknowledges LDS Church founder Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, and married a girl who was just shy of her 15th birthday.

“'Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday,” the essay, published on the LDS Church’s website, said. “Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens.”

http://fox13now.com/2014/10/22/lds-church-issues-new-essays-on-polygamy-acknowledges-joseph-smith-married-teen-girl/
_____


C. Other Mormon Apologist Sites Say That Marriages in Smith's Day to 14-Year-Old Child Brides Were Not "Scandalous" (Although They Were "Eyebrow Raising" and "Rare)," But, Nonetheless, Still "Legal"

"Joseph Smith was sealed to several women who were under the age 19th century than it is today, concerns have been expressed by modern-day observers.

"The Prophet was sealed to ten women under that age of 20. Four were 19, three were 17, one was 16, and two were 14.

"Helen Mar Kimball 14

"Nancy M. Winchester 14?

"Flora Ann Woodworth 16

"Sarah Ann Whitney 17

"Sarah Lawrence 17

"Lucy Walker 17

"Fanny Alger 19

"Emily Dow Partridge 19

"Maria Lawrence 19

"Malissa Lott 19

"Marriages for young women 16 and older were not uncommon in the mid-19th century. Matrimonies for females who were 14 years of age were eyebrow-raising, but not scandalous in the 1840s.

"Sexual relations are documented in several of the plural marriages between Joseph and the older seven plural wives, but there is no documentation supporting that either of the plural sealings to the two 14-year-old wives was consummated. In contrast, several observations support they were not.

"A review of marital patterns in the United States during the nineteenth century shows that the average female age for first marriages was around 20"

"Polygamy researcher Kimball Young wrote: “By present standards [1954] a bride of 17 or 18 years is considered rather unusual but under pioneer conditions there was nothing atypical about this.”

"LDS scholar Gregory L. Smith explained:

"It is significant that none of Joseph’s contemporaries complained about the age differences between polygamous or monogamous marriage partners. This was simply part of their environment and culture; it is unfair to judge 19th century members by 21st century social standards. . . .

"Joseph Smith’s polygamous marriages to young women may seem difficult to understand or explain today, but in his own time such age differences were not typically an obstacle to marriage. The plural marriages were unusual, to say the least; the younger ages of the brides were much less so. Critics do not provide this perspective because they wish to shock the audience and have them judge Joseph by the standards of the modern era, rather than his own time.


"How Common were Marriages to 14-year-old Brides in the 1880s?

"Attorney Melina McTigue observed that concerning the civil statutes governing the age of consent for sexual relations during the 1800s: 'Early English law set the age of consent at 10, the age was gradually raised over the years. In the 19th century, most states had set the age of consent at 10. A few states began by using 12 as the cutoff; Delaware set the age of consent at 7.'

"The minimum age for consent in Illinois at that time was ten.

"Regardless, the age of consent may have little or no correspondence to the average age of a first marriage. In Joseph Smith’s day, marriages to 14-year-old girls were legal but rare.

"In 1842, the Nauvoo City Council passed an ordinance specifying the minimum age for marriage, which recited Illinois State law verbatim: 'All male persons over the age of seventeen years, and females over the age of fourteen years, may contract and be joined in marriage, provided, in all cases where either party is a minor, the consent of parents or guardians be first had.'"

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/common-questions/14-year-old-wives-teenage-brides/



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2017 06:14AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 13, 2017 05:13AM

Polygamy was never legal in the U.S.

I'm not certain about the legal age of first marriage for women back then. 14 was probably legal. As others pointed out, that doesn't mean it was common. The average age of first marriage for women in the U.S. at the time was nearly 23. The average was a bit lower on the frontier. Marrying as a young teen was only a few percentage points more common back then than it is now. How many 14 or 15 year olds do you hear of who are marrying these days? We would consider it disreputable now. Well, it was generally considered disreputable back in the 1800s as well.

This is historical marriage data that the U.S. National Institute of Health has signed off on:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3002115/table/T1/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2017 05:16AM by summer.

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