Finally told my TBM aunt who lives alone and complains of being lonely, to spend time with her dad in this life. I remember reading somewhere that if you are offered the gospel in this life and reject it, even if you accept it in the spirit world you couldn't obtain the highest. She was like I don't know where you get that! From your own freaking religion!!! So spend time with your dad in this life!!! JFC!!!

I've asked this before without a clear-cut answer; is this something which is commonly believed, but not distinctly taught?

1) People who hear the LDS gospel and reject it on Earth are excluded from the Celestial Kingdom, although they may make it to the Terrestial Kingdom.

And/or,

2) People who join the LDS church, and renounce it (all you ex-Mo posters!) will be consigned to Outer Darkness, without a chance to gain even the Telestial Kingdom.

I'm especially interested in people's knowledge on #2, what they heard, and in what decade. I gather this is a "I don't know if we ever taught that" kind of thing. Or is it specifically addressed in D&C or some such writing?

Rejection of the Mormon "gospel" was denying the Holy Spirit. And the punishment for that act was eternal damnation.

I was a student at BYU at the time and this doctrine (yes, I'm calling it that because EVERYONE knew it-including leaders) was taken for granted.

This what I was told by my wife, bishop and EQ prez when I quit.

If that is true, why do they do temple work for them after they die?

Growing up in Morridor 70's and 80's I was absolutely taught that anyone turning away from a "testimony" would be damned. I believe the phrase used was "sin next to murder".

What I was always taught about outer darkness is that it is for people who have absolute knowledge of the "truth" of the gospel, not just faith or testimony. I think it was JS who said that they are called sons of perdition. I guess we daughters are exempt. He said that its like staring at the sun and saying it does not shine. So we're pretty safe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 10:18AM by liesarenotuseful.

this church is true".

The Mormonism I am familiar with knows nothing of dividing the difference between faith/believing and "knowing".

Of course, now this may be changing since the organizations has been forced to admit-out in the open that certain things are not true regarding its history. So people are now being advised that must go on "faith" and not knowledge.

But it always had been expected that once you gained a testimony of Mormonism (easily obtained by the burning in the bosom) you were expected to say you "know" the church is true.

Add to that testimonies always say the church is "true", which by implication means that the church might *not* be true.

All part of cult brainwashing.

I've never heard a Catholic, a Baptist, an Episcopalian, no one, ever, say there their church is *true*--they may say "I *know* Jesus loves me", but "I know the Methodist Church is true"? I don't think so.

If one REALLY has knowledge of the truth - they will leave Moism. If the test is "knowing" that TSCC is true and then leaving, I am safe because I never has such "perfect knowledge" as I always rejected much, so I never had such a "perfect knowledge" that TSCC was true. How could anyone? Hence, none of us will go to "Outer Darkness".

Religion in general constructs a World View for this life and any belief in a life after death. It sets the rules, adds the blessings and curses, so to speak. It's part of how we function in our society.

We all grow up with some kind of belief system about the world we live in. We are free to add any kind of belief to our life that we like that makes sense to us. We are also free to change it.

Beliefs are about making sense in a very confusing world. What is considered true and right, and the only answer sometimes stays with the person their whole life. Others find different answers that make better sense as they get older.

It's often hard, in Mormonism, to pin point exactly what is meant by many of their teachings as there have been different interpretations over the years.

True believers in any faith have their own set of absolutes, truths, and beliefs by faith that very often are never challenged or up for discussion. And, they are all different.
And, we are free to believe whatever we choose to, by faith.

Ultimately, we all get the same thing: we live, we die, we do stuff in between. Beliefs by faith are part of how we understand the world we live in. Sometimes those answers are helpful, sometimes - not so much.

Some people care a lot about their religious teachings and stick very close to them as an assurance that they are doing what their deity expects of them.

We can make suggestions to people about how to live their lives, but ultimately, they decide for themselves. It's their right to make those choices. We cannot change another person!

Morons 'believe in' "eternity" but don't know what it is or how to practice it, in the here and now, right smack dab in the middle of it.

They want to wait until DEATH to LIVE! Dummies

M@t

You wrote,

"Late 1970's-#2 was common knowledge

Rejection of the Mormon "gospel" was denying the Holy Spirit. And the punishment for that act was eternal damnation."

There are subtle matters of religious doctrine which may seem minor to a lot of posters, but they intrigue me:

1) WITHIN the confines of Mormonism, there is a difference between people who merely heard the LDS gospel (e.g. investigators), and rejected it, and those who "knew" it (had a burning in the bosom/faith/belief). For the first group, there is a second chance, perhaps in the post-death soul prison, and they can wind up in the Telestial or Terrestial Kingdom, but never in the CK. For the second group--those who KNEW it, were members, and left, they're headed for Outer Darkness.

Do I have that right?

2) At the risk of complicating things, the "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost" sin, if I have this right, is a kind of LDS twist on traditional Christian teaching. For Christians, it is denial of Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Annointed One. For Mormons, it is denial of the LDS gospel/Restoration/Mormon church.

Either way, Outer Darkness is the LDS concept of Hell.

Do I have that right, also?

Hi. I grew up in the Church in Chicago in the 60's. I had some very sophisticated teachers thruout my youth. The ward I grew up in had many educated people who taught at colleges and were also well versed in LDS " doctrines ". I then attended BYU, taking all the standard religion classes and graduated from there. I am a returned missionary. I tell you all this so you'll know I have been exposed to most all of the doctrines during the 60-70 time frame. This idea of outer darkness for those who reject the church and outer darkness for those who fall away was never " common knowledge" as far as I remember. Not to say that there wasn't some faction somewhere that expanded upon the common knowledge to " fill in the blanks". This practice has been common within the Mormon Church probably forever. I remember " outer Darkness" being reserved for just a few.

Here's the current scoop right from the Churches's own website:

"Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46)."

Soooo - the only people who will be consigned to outer darkness will be those who have denied Jesus after the Father has revealed him. This is more than just having a burning in your bosom. You would have to have a "first vision" type of experience with a godhead member. No one on earth, except perhaps the GA's, who have a "special witness" of Christ, would be in this category. In Mormon doctrine it's pretty tough to get to outer darkness. I doubt anyone here on this website is currently in this category.

Healed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's the current scoop right from the Churches's
> own website:
>
> "Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least
> two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in
> the spirit world for those who were disobedient in
> mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The
> spirits there will be taught the gospel, and
> sometime following their repentance they will be
> resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are
> worthy. Those who will not repent, but are
> nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in
> hell throughout the Millennium. After these
> thousand years of torment, they will be
> resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86;
> 88:100–101).
>
> Second, it is the permanent location of those who
> are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ.
> In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those
> who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102).
> This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the
> sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son
> after the Father has revealed him—will dwell
> eternally (D&C 76:43–46)."
>
> Soooo - the only people who will be consigned to
> outer darkness will be those who have denied Jesus
> after the Father has revealed him. This is more
> than just having a burning in your bosom. You
> would have to have a "first vision" type of
> experience with a godhead member. No one on earth,
> except perhaps the GA's, who have a "special
> witness" of Christ, would be in this category. In
> Mormon doctrine it's pretty tough to get to outer
> darkness. I doubt anyone here on this website is
> currently in this category.

Sadly, just because that's what's on the website today doesn't mean it's what was previously taught or always "true."

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi. I grew up in the Church in Chicago in the
> 60's. I had some very sophisticated teachers
> thruout my youth. The ward I grew up in had many
> educated people who taught at colleges and were
> also well versed in LDS " doctrines ". I then
> attended BYU, taking all the standard religion
> classes and graduated from there. I am a returned
> missionary. I tell you all this so you'll know I
> have been exposed to most all of the doctrines
> during the 60-70 time frame. This idea of outer
> darkness for those who reject the church and outer
> darkness for those who fall away was never "
> common knowledge" as far as I remember. Not to say
> that there wasn't some faction somewhere that
> expanded upon the common knowledge to " fill in
> the blanks". This practice has been common within
> the Mormon Church probably forever. I remember "
> outer Darkness" being reserved for just a few.


That is what I recall, too.
Never heard of the idea that if you reject the Mormon gospel in this life, but accept it in the next means that you get a lower degree of glory either.

That would make the whole idea of being "sealed" postmortem moot.

There would be no need of sealings if you weren't going to attain exhaltation.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You wrote,
>
> "Late 1970's-#2 was common knowledge
>
> Rejection of the Mormon "gospel" was denying the
> Holy Spirit. And the punishment for that act was
> eternal damnation."
>
> There are subtle matters of religious doctrine
> which may seem minor to a lot of posters, but they
> intrigue me:
>
> 1) WITHIN the confines of Mormonism, there is a
> difference between people who merely heard the LDS
> gospel (e.g. investigators), and rejected it, and
> those who "knew" it (had a burning in the
> bosom/faith/belief). For the first group, there is
> a second chance, perhaps in the post-death soul
> prison, and they can wind up in the Telestial or
> Terrestial Kingdom, but never in the CK. For the
> second group--those who KNEW it, were members, and
> left, they're headed for Outer Darkness.
>
> Do I have that right?
>
> 2) At the risk of complicating things, the
> "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost" sin, if I have this
> right, is a kind of LDS twist on traditional
> Christian teaching. For Christians, it is denial
> of Jesus as the Christ/Messiah/Annointed One. For
> Mormons, it is denial of the LDS
> gospel/Restoration/Mormon church.
>
> Either way, Outer Darkness is the LDS concept of
> Hell.
>
> Do I have that right, also?


I had a class at BYU from Bruce R McConkie's sister, Margret Pope.
She said the idea of "denying the Holy Ghost" is NOT rejection of the Gospel, but was about those who had received their "2nd Annointing" IE received the "more sure word" and THEN rejecting the knowledge you had received.

A real "denying of the Holy Ghost" is no easy task in LDS doctrine.

Tom Phillips would "qualify" for this, but not the rest of us

But the idea of the second anointing is that one cannot get lost. Hence, Tom is in the clear and Margret Pope must be mistaken.

rhgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the idea of the second anointing is that one
> cannot get lost. Hence, Tom is in the clear and
> Margret Pope must be mistaken.


I always thought that one who has had their 2nd Ann. if they do deny the holy ghost, (i.e. the more sure word of prophecy) then they go to the big OD??

The "Unpardonable Sin"

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Unpardonable_Sin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2017 01:23PM by angela.

It's all B.S. anyway. No matter what they believe, taught or didn't teach or quit teaching. None of it's true...

Yes, I always thought it rather unjust that I would go to Outer Darkness whereas Adolf Hitler would qualify for at least the Telestial Kingdom".

Bruce R. McConkie was recommended to me as the expert on the "2nd Anointing".

Just as well it is all made up nonsense. Although, at the time, I had sleepless nights about "Outer Darkness". Glad I'm over that.

That's what I remember reading when I was TBM. Even if I look it up, she's just going to say something about how that's not what the current prophet says. That's why I'm not wasting my time and risking a depression episode to look it up. I was wondering if anyone else remembered what I did on the topic.

That was not taught when I was LDS.

What bunk, IMHO.

"I remember reading somewhere that if you are offered the gospel in this life and reject it, even if you accept it in the spirit world you couldn't obtain the highest. She was like I don't know where you get that! From your own freaking religion!!!"

This is known as the "Second Chance Theory" – as in, there's no second chance.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, pp. 182-83:

"Those who have the opportunity here, those unto whom the message of salvation is declared, who are taught and who have this truth presented to them in this life – yet who deny it and refuse to receive it – shall not have a place in the kingdom of God. They will not be with those who died without that knowledge and who yet accepted it in the spirit world…

"SECOND CHANCE LEADS TO TERRESTRIAL KINGDOM. Moreover, we learn that those who rejected the gospel when it was offered them in ancient times, but afterwards accepted the 'testimony of Jesus' in the spirit world when it was declared to them, and who were honorable men of the earth, are assigned to the terrestrial glory, not the celestial."


Bruce R. McConkie:

"There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness where there can be no labor performed… Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom." ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," BYU Speeches of the Year, 1980)


Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 685-87, SECOND CHANCE THEORY:

"There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation by accepting the gospel in the spirit world after spurning, declining, or refusing to accept it in this life. It is true that there may be a second chance to hear and accept the gospel, but those who have thus procrastinated their acceptance of the saving truths will not gain salvation in the celestial kingdom of God…

Those who have a fair and just opportunity to accept the gospel in this life and who do not do it, but who then do accept it when they hear it in the spirit world will go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom… Thus the false and heretical doctrine that people who fail to live the law in this life (having had an opportunity so to do) will have a further chance of salvation in the life to come is a soul-destroying doctrine, a doctrine that lulls its adherents into carnal security and thereby denies them a hope of eternal salvation."


Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 1, pp. 480-81:

"There is a time appointed for the performance of every righteous work. Time lost can never be recaptured; it is gone forever. Perhaps the most awesome illustration of this principle is the doctrine which denies men a second chance to gain celestial salvation. Of those who have opportunity to believe and obey the gospel in this life and who neglect or refuse to do so, Amulek said: 'After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.'" (Alma 34:33.)


Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 2, p. 407:

"…Paul wove in sufficient doctrinal data to leave modern readers with a great sense of thanksgiving for the epistle [2 Corinthians]. In it we read, among other things… that there is no second chance for salvation for the saints…"


[As for Outer Darkness, we're all safe, even Tom Phillips. Second Anointing isn't sufficient. The "heavens have to be opened." No less than SWK admitted as much.]


Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 358:

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy."


Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 123:

"The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin."

Thanks for the documentation.

So Pope lied to her students. Oh well.......Mormonism

Of course all dead GA's words have no binding affect on present day teachings, now do they.

Mormon doctrine = jello in the sun.

Another example of how meaningless temple work is these days, as always



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2017 12:05AM by angela.

From your McConkie quote:

There is a time appointed for the performance of every righteous work. Time lost can never be recaptured; it is gone forever. Perhaps the most awesome illustration of this principle is the doctrine which denies men a second chance to gain celestial salvation.

- And I was thinking, yeah, so WHAT if a few years got away from you! By Mormon teachings you still have a never-ending eternal stream of days yet to come. Why create deadlines? Oh yeah, the Creator.

I think I have the gist of this issue, but I realize that Mormons' understanding(s) of this has varied over the last several decades.Just as I thought, LDS is, at core, universalistic.

"anon for this 'un," thanks especially. Your style and referencing is rather suggestive of RP.

"Mormonism is INNER DARKNESS".

Alive or Dead, it is the same: as far away from freedom and happiness as you can legally, morally and realistically get without being born again (lds) [living dead suckers].

M@t

P.S. Edited (again) to correct an auto fix that's generally fairly pissy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2017 01:45AM by moremany.

It amazes me as a non-lds how many times things are taught and no one ever checks the source of these rules or doctrines. But then I understand that virtually nothing is ever put in print saying this is what the church believes and teaches.

I have a dear friend that is a very fundamentalist Christian, that once he cited that when the potus refused to meet the head of Israel, it was one of the last signs as predicated in Leviticus.

I went looking and couldn't find anything, told him so and I asked him for chapter and verse.

He replied a few days later that he was preparing for some easter ceremony and would get back to me later. Haven't heard anything for about 8-9 months.