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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 04:43PM

Knowing what you know now. If you could go back in time and save your self years from being in the cult, what info would you share with yourself, or say to yourself, that would have made your TBM shelf crack FASTER?

I read how sometimes its just one little tidbit that makes a TBM suddenly see straight. I was reading on exmormonreddit today how a guy's TBM wife's shelf suddenly broke after learning of the leak that GA's get paid $120,000/year. I never thought that would be a shelf breaker but apparently it was for her.

I know some of you read the polygamy and/or stone in the hat essay and that did it for you. Others, it was DNA and the BoM.

What was a TBM shelf cracker for you? What could you say to yourself at a younger age that would make your brainwashed TBM mind go, HUH??!!

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Posted by: ericka ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 05:29PM

The blatant lies about the book of Abraham. I was done when I read about that.

Then I kept on reading and found that was just the tip of the iceberg. They lie about e v e r y t h i n g. There isn't anything that's touched the mormon church that doesn't have some kind of lie attached to it in some one. Prolific liars.

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Posted by: de ja vue ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 05:42PM

It could have been, should have been so many things. Starting out with the MMM and polygamy then to Kinderhook plates, many versions of the first vision, etc..

The final kurplunk for me was the Book of Abraham. Since then, the land slide just keeps on going. What a ride!

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Posted by: overit ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 05:44PM

polyandry, and personal experience that priesthood leaders are not inspired of god

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Posted by: Chica ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 06:15PM

Polygamy
- leaders marrying teenagers
- marrying other men's wives
- arguing over who got to marry the prettiest immigrants
- lying to European investigators about polygamy
- manipulating women/girls into marrying

I'd always hated the idea of polygamy, but learning more of the details was the final straw. No way in hell was Joe Smith a man of god if he would use women that way. And if he was wrong about that, what else?

Then I was able to look at everything more critically and I was done. Huge sense of relief once I let myself think that "the gospel", the Mormon gospel, can't be true.

After the Mormon shelf broke, then I started to look at Christianity more critically, and then religion in general.

It was like dominoes - everything collapsed.

And then a huge weight was lifted and I realized that my life really is mine to live however I want. It's a great feeling!

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 06:25PM

If I could go back, I'd say "NormaRae, listen up. The endowment is a provable rip off." And I'd have been like "Lord love a duck. I'm outta here!"

Never could figure out how and why God would come up with such crap in order for you to get into heaven (it was back in the throat slashing/ naked touching/ pay lay ale-ing/ six points of fellowshipping/ one-piece undies days.

Trust me, I WANTED it to be provable bunk. That's why I get so peeved when people make up all kinds of BS about why we leave. I never would have considered leaving because I believed it enough to think that there was no way to ever know if it was fully true or false, so I'd go with the Pascal approach. And nothing would be too hard nor could I be offended enough to make me live any other way. Even if I couldn't bring myself to go through the endowments anymore.

Finding out that I was wrong and it IS an absolute man-made rip off of man-made Masonry was my silver bullet.

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Posted by: Walks like a duck ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 06:26PM

Non-transparency. Only liars, cheats and thieves have things to hide. The more they hide, the more they quack.

Then to compel members to "true up" tithing to tax returns, while TSCC hides financials, what a low-life group of cons.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 06:34PM

I think those Hinkster interviews are pretty damning to anyone that believed in any kind of seer, revelator and prophet.

To think that the toilet bowl scrubber is more powerful than anything than the priesthood can muster up. Lol

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Posted by: dp ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 02:17AM

Agreed. Saw one of Hinckley's interviews* while I was a missionary. Didn't see the light until about 10 years after...

"I don't know that we teach that," said the Hinckster.

"But, but, but...didn't I learn that in seminary or Sunday school?" said I.

---

*Bit of backstory on seeing those interviews. Maybe I wasn't worthy enough to go out of the country...instead I went to Cali. We had heard about the interviews before they were broadcast, and it was suggested to us in zone/district meetings that we use the fact they were on "national tee-vee!" (ooh! ahh!) as a selling point we could make with prospects.

I was probably at a member's house after a dinner appointment to watch the interview. I was probably supposed to bring an investigator. I probably tried really hard, and I was probably shot down, as most "investigators" tend to do. I probably wrote about it in my mission journal. If I were sufficiently motivated, I'd go through my stuff in storage, dig out the journal, and see if I wrote anything about the experience. But I'm not motivated by that, not now.

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Posted by: evergreen ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 06:40PM

I would imagine GAs get closer to a million a year vs $120K, but who knows since the books are closed. I wonder how many more shelves would break if the books were open.

It took years and bits of information for my shelf to bend and then break. I'm not sure if any information obtained earlier would have hastened the process. I would not have accepted or believed it.

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Posted by: ericka ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 12:36AM

I think you're absolutely right.

My father worked for the church. He ran a church farm. He got a paycheck.

Things that weren't on the paycheck: Free housing, utilities, vehicles, maintenance, gas, food, travel, house remodel, and probably a lot more that I didn't know about.

He told me that he was making about twice what he had made at his previous job if he counted in the perks. I wasn't privy to all of the perks.

He did tell me that his children would never have to worry about supporting him and my mother in their old age. He said they had a very good retirement plan through the church. However, this was in the early 80's.

Things have changed a lot since then. I'm no longer connected to them in any way. I suspect one of their favorite children has taken them to the cleaners. Not my problem. They always loved the church way more then they loved their own kids. So, let the church love them back. Hope that goes well for them.

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Posted by: Heretic 2 ( )
Date: January 11, 2017 10:51PM

I wish I could send a message back in time to myself to study up on the Book of Abraham facsimiles. That likely would have broken my shelf.

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Posted by: Pariah ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 01:36AM

The Book of Abraham did it for me, too. There was good, hard evidence (pardon the pun) that proved JS was nothing but a liar.

Before that was polygamy, which the Mormons glossed over with all those excuses and lies we have all heard many times before. If you hear the same lie often enough, you begin to think it might be true. My polygamous ancestors were nice people--so I was told--and rescued those poor widows and women who had no husband to protect them from the Indians, in a world where most of the decent men died of sickness or were killed by Indians and whatnot.

I must not beat myself up for being gullible and obedient as a child, and for trusting my parents and grandparents to tell me the truth!

But nothing, and no one could lie their way out of the Book of Abraham evidence!

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Posted by: dp ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 02:27AM

Don't forget about the death threats in the endowment ceremony. Finding about them was a doozy!

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 08:17AM

I found out before I married him. After years of so much pain (I've told this many times before), my good friend's daughter was getting married in the temple (of course). Every time something would go wrong with the wedding plans, this daughter would say "The church is still true, so what does it matter."

I just couldn't get that statement out of my head. I thought about it for days. One day it occurred to me, "It mattered to me." And it all fell apart immediately. I was just out walking at the middle school track.

After all I'd been through, the message finally hit home.

It still brings tears to my eyes thinking about "it mattered to me."

It took gay to get me out. Nothing else could have.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 09:29AM

With me it started in the 90s with an epiphany that the BoM followed a somewhat standard 19th century narrative that Native Americans were a remnant of the so-called "lost tribes." But then in about 2006, using Google, I learned that the church had been guilty of revising conflicting dates of certain historic events and "revelations" when they switched from the Book of Commandments to the Doctrine and Covenants. That led me to openly search for support, and I found RfM. The subject of people successfully resigning from the church gave me the support I needed to also resign.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 09:59AM

For me, it was a combination of many things from the BOA to Hinckley lying on national television. But the Silver Bullet that busted my shelf was the stories of the viciousness and cruelty of Brigham Young. When I was TBM, he was my favorite profit. Then I realized that he created quite the little kingdom for himself. No one would dare be able to run away once they got here because several thousand miles of wilderness and danger would take care of that. The story of Bishop Warren Snow having a young man castrated because Snow wanted the young man's girlfriend and BY not punishing Snow was the last straw.

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Posted by: Amos90 ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 11:26AM

Any one of the things I thought were "anti-Mormon lies", such as that there really were violent Danites, church-ordered murders and assassinations, sacking/attacking gentiles, and otherwise that the church was an organized crime racket and a cult. The Kirtland non-bank really was a crime, outright theft. Joseph Smith really was a "scrier" and was convicted in court in Bainbridge ("scrier" meaning he intentionally lied about seeing buried treasure to con fees from duped clients). And then the sex-cult "anti-Mormon lies", that Smith was a child-rapist and serial sex predator, that he propositioned women and girls behind Emma's back, that he used lying, threats, coercion, and basic bullying to get sex. That Joseph Smith was a narcissist maniac who just lived from one lie to the next, and that the bitter things apostates and critics said about him were...true. That Lucy Harris, William Law, Isaac Hale, et al, were RIGHT.

Also if I had known that even one of the apologetic pretzels "answering" "anti-Mormon lies" were concocted, contrived, tabloid propaganda...lies in themselves.

The silver bullet is finding out the church lied. It's a different detail for everyone, but the basic mechanism is the same: you find out the church lied.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 11:28AM

A silver bullet would have been too good for a couple TBM assholes in my past.

RB

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Posted by: bluebutterfly ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 12:18PM

I walked away from Mormonism, but maintained a heavy shelf for nearly 2 decades. It was finding out about the temple rituals (especially pre-1990) and realizing that my parents had done it all and tried really hard to get all their kids in on it...that was what cracked the shelf to smithereens.

I'm still trying to figure a way to help crack my sister's shelf. She converted her hubby so she could have a temple marriage. He, of course was a young innocent, unsuspecting individual. I would love to know what he thought about the endowment and his wedding day as a new convert. He's a smart guy, so I think he knows the religions is bs and he's just going along with it all (for 13 years now) to keep peace at home. My sister, however, is very gullible...the type of person that tssc loves. I would love to crack her shelf...even if very slowly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 12:20PM by bluebutterfly.

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Posted by: evil eric ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 12:45PM

I was TBM for decades; RM (Illinois Chicago South), married in the temple, until I read that GBH had invited Dick Cheney to BYU and that GBH gave Cheney an honorary doctorate in public service. I am an Operation Enduring Freedom veteran, my son was in the Army in Iraq and went through hell there and we were both adamantly opposed to Bush's war. Cheney was one of the chief architects of that fiasco.
When GBH gave Cheney that doctorate degree it was a massive insult and a major slap in the face to all those that have toiled for years to legitimately earn a degree. What was he thinking? Was this some sort of twisted quid pro quo? I did notice that a few very brave BYU students protested Cheney's visit. Good for them. That took a lot of courage. I watched the pathetic meeting that the head of BYU had with some of the students. What a piece of work he is.
Ever since then I have been relentless in my search for the truth. I am angry that the church lied to me for decades. Tough being married to an active TBM though. Fortunately, all but one of my children are out of the church. I am so angry that I was duped by the leaders for so long.
One of my favorite books is by Elder Worthy in which he wrote about his mission experience in Hong Kong. His experience is so similar to mine. Relentless tracting, endless meetings, I did have some good experiences but what can I say?

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 12:57PM

Its inconceivable that anything would ever cause the shelf to collapse. Having a rock solid "every fibre of my being" testimony that the LDS church is the most true, honest, truthful, and transparent church ever ensures this. And considering what a grave sin it is to ever entertain the thought that the church could be anything less is the best way at ensuring that the shelf stays rock solid strong :)

Now if the church truly wasn't the most honest and transparent church ever then of course the shelf would collapse. Only an evil enemy of truthfulness could ever suggest that the church, along with its curriculum and topics of dialogue, could consider itself a true church if the classes/meetings aren't places where people feel comfortable discussing, questioning, and learning all they can on any and all topics. Learning all we can on everything is just the starting process of becoming omniscient.

Now of course there are some troublemaking anti-Moroni people like DCP (or some of the haughty scholars at BYU who come up with nonsense ideas to try to discount the sacred doctrines & teachings) who do plenty of damage to the church with their so-called apologetics. But in reality the church has a long list of sacred unchangeable doctrines that have to be maintained. What does D&C 77:6 say about the age of the earth? Was there any death in the world before the Fall in the Jackson County Garden of Eden about 6017 years ago? What did Moroni that omniscient resurrected prophet-historian teach us about the American Indians? What did Abraham write upon papyrus? Aren't the BoA facsimiles translated awesomely? Remember all that Brigham Young taught us about marriage and race relations? Remember the sacred promises of exaltation made to the good Brethren in the southern Utah stakes if they would help the Fancher company keep quiet & the standard this has set for the church's wondrous reputation? And the list goes on and on. If only the kids in Nursery, Sunbeams, and other classes could get well-versed on these things at a young age then before they ever hit YM/YW they will be well-prepared to ask appropriate questions in Sunday School, public schools, and everywhere in the world so they can read, ponder, and pray to know for themselves if this is truly God's work.

And don't blame me for all these wondrous teachings. When the kids and people in the world think of them they should think of the glorious prophets, seers, and revelators on the top half of the semiannual Ensign magazine centerfold. Then as they wander the world people will think - "oh look there goes one of the MMM apologetics masters" - and they'll get the proper respect they deserve from an informed world.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 01:57PM

It never was about facts, historical or DNA et al., for me.

I just stopped believing in their core doctrine of need for temples and being "sealed" in order to be a "forever family"

Was illogical. My family is my family. That doesn't change, dead or alive

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Posted by: Serge ( )
Date: January 12, 2017 06:02PM

For me it is those things that have come to light that cannot be explained away or rationalized: JS marrying married women (Polyandry) and teenagers. The Book of Abraham. The seer stone in the hat (I learned about that watching South Park). King James verses (with 17th Century italicized words) in the Book of Mormon. Lack of any DNA or archeological evidence that native Americans are direct or indirect descendants of either Jaredites, Nephites, or Lamanites. Book of Mormon containing "mistranslated" biblical verses that were later corrected by the JST. Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Finally, THE CITY CREEK MALL! The Lord needs a mall? Seriously!!!? If anyone reading these posts are asked about why they are not paying tithing, just say: "IT's all good, the Lord has got his mall!"

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