Y'all know I've been struggling to hold my marriage together since telling hubby that I no longer believe in TSCC.

After some major struggles, we've reached a tentative and fragile peace (as long as I don't say nothing about my findings).

BUT now he is working harder than ever to indoctrinate the kiddos. He even got a bunch of church-themed board games to play for Family Home Evening and he's got a bunch of extended family members in on it also that never miss an opportunity to drive home a lesson. I am forbidden to speak out against this, of course.

How do I fight this without ending up in court fighting for custody of my children?

And do men (esp. ones whose family goes back for generations in TSCC) ever come around and follow their wives out? I feel like I am fighting a losing battle and I'm durn tired of kickin this particular cow patty.

I'm sorry you have to fight and give up so much to save your family.

Stupid cult.

How long since you told him of your disbelief?

About 5 months back I told him I was studying and researching because of serious doubts. About 2 months after that I told him I was definitely out for good. I know that isn't that long, but it seems like he's gonna be stuck in major-freak-out mode forever.

basic rights, he's going to keep playing his control game.

It's terribly risky, but the only way to find out how he will react is to push back. Perhaps a professional counselor/coach could help you do it in ways that don't get his back up.

Shouldn't they be exposed equally to your findings? Why is his perspective of more importance than yours?

Put aside the question of church true or not. You are being marginalized in the same way the church always diminishes women.
You are 50% of the parent these children have and are entitled to fair input on family time.

Why not ask him if you can have half the time for your fun ideas. One hour of his "fun" ideas, break for refreshments, then one hour of your ideas. Your ideas would not be indoctrination into anything, rather just simple fun together, like playing Stratego or Monopoly, whatever games you want. You participate in his and he participates in yours.

That's being fair. You are being shamed and shunned and you have nothing to be ashamed of. You respect each other's beliefs about religion.

On the Mormon board game, you just preface your statements instead of saying "Where do you go after you die if you have not been baptized?" You would say, "Where do Mormons believe you go after you die if you have not been baptized?"

I was raised in a mixed marriage and when I asked my non-religious dad a religious question, he would say, "Catholics believe babies go to Limbo". I do not feel I suffered any wounds from my parents' differences because it was handled with respect. When I got old enough, I asked him what he believed, not what Catholics believed. And he told me.

Anagrammy

You need to spend equal time with your children and you have the same freedom to discuss matters from your perspective as he does. However, rather than make the children a battleground, I'd simply be honest with them, have fun with them and honestly answer any questions they have but don't bring anything up at this time. Still, a marriage is about equal input, equal say, equality. I realize Mormons aren't big on that, but it's the idea behind marriage nowadays.

And you might want to start documenting things just in case HE decides it isn't worth fighting for your marriage. In most cases that I've read it's the TBM spouse who decides to end the marriage, not the new apostate.

Right on, the TBM spouse is far more likely to be the one to end the marriage. Mine now exH did just that, though what he actually did was make my life a living hell, did things to me you don't do to a dog, until finally I said "I think it is best we divorce". That is what he had wanted all along , not me.

But our bishop was a good man and had told him not to divorce me, so he just put the pressure on real hard until I pretty much just wanted to die. He forced me to ask for the divorce, a total mind game so he could look like the good guy to the kids, the bishop and the church. I no longer care, but unlike you I did not have kids to raise. That is just making me really sad for you.

By the time it ended I was very ready to live without him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 08:24PM by think4u.

I have never once thought that the advice given by Anagrammy was anything short of great wisdom based on experience.

She is right. Frankly, I wish she had been my real grandma because my biological grandma wasn't nearly as cool. Even so, I am adopted amen.

Anyway, Angel. From what I gather you really seem to be a cowgirl. If so, wear the boots and don't forget the spurs. Most custody cases favor the mother anyway. This "hubby" of yours is only bigger than you because of biology. A real man would not fear you wearing pants. A real man would not fear you having rights. A real man would not fear your opinion.

Your kids have rights and so do you. If he and his family are all over you then by all means, follow the advice of the ladies of this forum whom I so admire. Kick him in the balls, if he has any, and take what is already yours.

-MiB

Anagrammy rocks! MIB she probably is not old enough to be our Grammy--I have seen a pic of her and she looks pretty young to go by Anagrammy. :)

Just because I travel on a rocker on top of the station wagon...

Ana

Lost Mystic I agree. Why do women put themselves as inferior. No way. Don't do that.I like the idea of one hour of his choices and one hr. for yours. Seems fair. Just tell him that is the way it will be. How could he argue with fairness.

Is your marriage worth this? It seems you have a right to speak freely to your kids.

If I have to keep fighting like this endlessly then, no, it won't be worth it. But I do love the man and really would like to make it work. In spite of the LDS church, he's a good man.

Do many people here end up deciding that it wasn't worth it?

Yes..i sure did..and didn't want the boys anywhere near the church...just couldn't do it..

But he needs to be fair to you...you need equal time..
stormy

I brought my wife out of the church with me. She resisted at first, but it didn't take a whole lot to show her how much B.S. there is.

If she had wanted to marginalize me and raise my girls in the church I don't know what I would have done. Probably nothing.
I love her too much to lose her over the cost of 3 hours on Sunday and 10% of the family income.

I'm guessing I would have pretended to believe and shut my mouth if it meant losing her. Not sure what that says about me. Perhaps I'm a coward. If I'm honest though, that's what I would have done.

Dear AngelCowgirl,
I really feel for you. What you describe is very common. My kids were grown when I left the church, but as DH could see my doubts becoming stronger, he did a 180 and became more active and devout and temple going than ever.

It was so strange. Week after week he brought home books from DB, his work is right by there, mostly about JS, I believe to shore up his own shaky testimony, because he knows all that I know, maybe more, and for whatever reasons chooses to believe, most likely because all of our 5 grown TBM kids are temple married, so maybe in support of them?

I don't know for sure, but deep down I do not believe for one minute he is a believer, most especially because of horrible ways he treated me, all throughout our marriage, but mostly the last year, horrific emotional abuse, even tried to steal money in the divorce.

Best of luck to you, but the really bad news is that I live in the morridor and I see NO men following their wives out, usually if they both go, it happens the other way around, as men are too proud to let their wife be seen as the one who found the truth first and then he followed later.

That is what I have heard from other exmo's here in Utah, and it is also what I see. I know several men who have left and their wives have followed them out, but not the other way around. So so sorry for the bad news I bring. Hope you beat the odds, really do. I didn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2011 08:26PM by think4u.

I don't know what to tellyou, but I would have a hard time being told not to discuss something with my own children. Church isn't the big issue for me. Being told what I can and can't do is.

My wife went from not doing much in the church to over-compensating for my quitting. It's okay, I guess, as long as it doesn't become her vocation or something and doesn't wear any special habit.

Why fight it today? You will have plenty of time in the coming years to tell your children your beliefs and if they are as smart as you then there is a good chance they will use their heads and follow you out.

Be a good mom, deal with the crap he's dishing out' and hold your head high. Who knows, maybe your example and love will win him over in the long run. If you love him and love your kids why divorce him? Take the high road.

Start doing really fun things on Sundays, so that the kids would rather go with you than to church. All you have to do is announce what fun thing you're doing.

Frankly, I'd be really angry if I was told that I couldn't say something to the little people I happened to give birth to, thank you very much. That wouldn't go over well with me at all.

My ex is now out...i was never in and it caused our divorce.

We had two young boys..i refused to allow them to be blessed...i had them them baptised Catholic instead..

He is now out and we will remarry...this time without the lds meddling..

There isn't a lot you can do if he doesn't want to leave the church..

stormy

I just have to weigh in here since I have been through this already.

I am a woman who left the church and was met with tough resistance from my TBM husband. It became a battleground situation. I felt like I was being punished for learning the truth and I was being accused of changing and ruining everything.

I am not one to be walked on and I decided that I had a voice too. I told him that I would be discussing my beliefs with the children and that we had to be equal in our discussions and activities. I would be taking the children to a Unitarian church every other week. I just didn't take no for an answer. He has no right to tell you that you are not allowed to talk to your children about your change in belief and teach them about your differences. He has no right to make you feel inferior. you have the right to not feel like an outcast in your own home.

He resisted a lot at first and I thought we would get a divorce. But, the alternative was not an option for me. I would not lie down and be silent about everything. I would not be downgraded in my children's lives.

Guess what? I gave him space. I tried not to bad mouth the church to the kids. I told them how I felt honestly and kindly. I let him figure out things for himself. I tried to listen to his needs and feelings while sticking up for myself.

He has now left the church with me! My kids no longer attend. He has not resigned, but he now sees what I see, that it simply isn't true and it's not our fault.

People can change. Men can follow their wives out. The key, demand respect and give it back. Realize that he is in mourning just like you but for different reasons. He may never leave the church, but if he can't accept that you don't believe, if he can't be respectful to you as a husband and as a father, it won't work and you wouldn't want it to. You want a good marriage even if you have different beliefs. A good relationship shouldn't be contingent on religion.

BIG HUGS, I know how heartbreaking it all is. I know how it feels to be shunned by your spouse. Have a talk with him. Be open and honest about your feelings. Give expectations. Establish rules and a timeline. Get some counseling.

Duped no more mentions a key point of solidarity --it is not our fault.

The person left behind as a spouse transitions out of the church often feels like it is their fault. If they had been more faithful, prayed more, held more FHEs, went to the temple, tithed, the partner wouldn't have left. They may even view the partner's awakening as a punishment from God for their inadequacies.

Also, the use of the word "our" re-emphasizes the importance of the marriage. Useful statements:

We are still united in our values.
Our children will benefit from seeing tolerance and respect for the opinions of others.
We are married at a level deeper than our roles.
I respect who you are more than what you believe.
Having love at home is a Mormon value and love includes respect.
It is important for our children to see you respect me and my rights as a parent.


Anagrammy

and to question, and reason things out? My dad used to tell me to think. I am inclined to observe, and analyze, but when he said that, I actually did pay more attention to thinking things through. Of course, later my critical thinking went out the window for a while. Critical thinking, and reasoning can be applied to all areas of life, and TSCC does not hold up well under scrutiny.

From my experience (my ex was a jack mormon during the marriage, and I am led to understand, still is) if the marriage has any meaning for you, back-track on your beliefs and go much more softly with your hubby.
Sadly, doing this would also work in your favor if you decide you've had enough. Each state has its own laws, but you don't want to risk him having final say on the kids' religious training.
What anagrammy says is right on the money though.
Depending on your kids ages, you can tell them what you believe apart from what your husband believes. Plenty of people do just fine in "mixed" marriages, as long as love is a factor.

Yeah, the " love being a factor is Huge "- there was none left in mine anyway, besides no longer having kids to raise- we were existing as ships in the night.

Go slow and easy and be as patient as you can if you do love this man, because divorce really is painful for everyone, esp. with kids involved.

1. He listens to you and leaves his cult
2. You wind up divorced

Being female, you will get custody of your kids, unless he can paint you to be a crack whore.

Everything I read on this post about equal input for both parents does not apply to brainwashed mormons. I moved out of my house the day my ex wife had our oldest son baptized after 4 months of yelling matches about it. No mormon is going to give you an inch on raising your kids outside of the cult mind control mechanisms. It won't happen. Every time I pleaded with her on this or asked why my opinion didn't matter, or whay dshe didn't care what I thought she would just yell "ITS THE TRUTH". The only other answer I got routinely was "I care about what you think, I just think you're wrong" How do you defeat that? You can't.

Remember, you are up against someone who got instructed by his parents to say the church is true from the time he was 3-4 years old. I predict from experience that you will not easily defeat that.

I am not happy about what has become of my family. She took my kids out of state. She lives with her parents in an uber TBM home. So I left thinking she would come to the table on the topic of me getting some input to what we taught the kids, and it cost me a lot of money and my relationsip with my kids.

Tread cautiously. It would be a lot better to try to slowly expose him to fundamental problems with church history, doctrine etc. which if successful would lead to his enlightment.

Drunk Sailor is right on. Very good advice from him.

You are "forbidden" ?????? WTF??????

Are you in a marriage or in a dictatorship?

but you have the power of cutting him off. Tell him you just don't feel right serving it up to him when he is marginalizing you this way. See how long he lasts.

Angelcowgirl...our situations are quite similar...I was playing nice and allowing the kids to attend church with hubby and attend with me also...however the church did not play nice back and I pulled them completely out...boundaries were not respected when I was present(HT) so I knew they would definitely not be respected when I was not there...the HT tactics really pushed me over the edge...he still calls my husband on a weekly basis to check on the status of my family...really, is that necessary, the last time I checked I was an adult?...my new name for the church is the Church of Compliance Practitioners...kids believe whatever their parents, authority figures tell them because they trust those people...after all, isn't that why your husband and my husband still believe because they do not think their family and trusted church associations could be capable of such deceit?...be very concerned that he is not allowing you to at least have 50% of the time. My husband thus far Has been supportive, but he still goes to a church that constantly reinforces that we are the lost ones and have less value. I hope that he can still see the value in me, I just refuse for the church to parent and teach my kids that I am a lost soul. I am here if you ever need to vent.