My wife is an uber TBM. She cannot do enough for the church, read enough (church approved) material, fast long enough, or drop everything to attend another meeting quick enough. She lives and breathes the church.

Gag.

When I left the Mormon religion several years ago, it was traumatic for her and our marriage suffered. Since then, it's rebounded and things are solid. I feel we have a third partner in our marriage (you guessed it, the church) but I do my best to bite my tongue and love her for the woman she is.

She has never read anything critical of the church or been willing to openly discuss any of my reasons for leaving. It's only a slight exaggeration; but basically, if a discussion comes up with my problems against the church, her fingers go in her ears and she starts singing 'lalalala!'

One of the issues that was most damaging to me was Joseph Smith's adultery, polygamy, and polyandry. My wife pretended she'd learned "all about that" in her youth and wasn't bothered in the least.

To be honest, it bothered me that it didn't bother her. However, what could I do? Discussions on the topic never got anywhere and she was unwilling to read any material I gave her (including the churches own essays on the topic).

About six weeks ago, we were talking about Warren Jeffs and his sick practice of sleeping with young girls. I told my wife that JS had done the same thing, which she denied. I knew I could do nothing to change her mind myself; but we have this NOM home teacher who knows all the history of the church and is an honest guy. I told her to ask him if JS had slept with 14 year girls, stolen their dowry's when they were orphaned, and married his wife's own house-helpers without her knowledge. She didn't believe any of this and I figured that was the end of the conversation.

Except this time she must've listened and asked her home teacher.

Anyway, a book arrived 4 weeks ago called 'joseph smith's polygamy' written by somebody named Hales (I think). I asked my wife about it and she told me she had bought it for me, at a recommendation (by the HT I assume). But she'd bought it for me so I could understand what "really" happened with the polygamy and how anti's made it so much worse than it really was.

I asked her to read it first. She did and during a date night last weekend she opened up about how much JS's actions bothered her. She couldn't believe somebody would do that to his wife! I was shocked that this conversation was coming from her!

I challenged her and asked her if a prophet of God would behave that way. She said, "no!" Then I mentioned that after he started sleeping around, he'd have lost the authority to speak for God and anything "revealed" after that moment couldn't be true.

Baby steps!

So, I'm writing this board because my wife is still uber Mormon....but finally, finally!!! had a minor break-through after she read a church approved book.

What could be a next "safe" book to share with her???

It can't be "anti" written by anybody she'd recognize to be against the church....but any recommendations?

Thanks for any help!

Rough Stone Rolling maybe a good next book.

The excuses for Joseph Smith's behaviours are pretty laughable but the opening few chapters make it clear he was a treasure seeker, a money digger and heavily into folk magic, etc, etc.

Bushman explains that all that magic stuff away as a "preparatory gospel", ha ha ha.

excellent, thank you! I found it listed on Deseret Books website, so I believe it'll pass the "safe" test....will order it at home tonight.

I appreciate the recommendation.

Read this review of the book to prepare yourself to discuss with your wife. It'll give you additional ammunition to just the contents of the book itself.

http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Rough_Stone_Rolling/return

I'd also be careful buying a book for your wife. It would be better for her to decide to buy it. Can you try the same trick and get her HTer to recommend the book to her?

there is no harm in it taking a few weeks to get around to it. If you push it too hard, she'll retreat into her Mormon shell again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2016 10:26AM by Darren Steers.

Very similar situation with my wife. She would get physically ill just reading the Essays on the LDS site, let alone anything labeled "anti-Mormon" by the church. But she's taking small steps herself to understanding that it's not the critics who are lying, but her own church. She's to the point where she admits that Joseph Smith did "bad things" and was probably a charlatan, but not yet to the point where she's ready to call the whole church a sham.

Yes Virginia, it really is utter sanctimonious horse shit.

Just some random observations about my wife's situation, with no attempt to trace a common theme:

- We don't argue anymore about the church and whether I am a pawn of Satan. She's stopped saying marriage to a non-member was a mistake or that we might be better off divorced. In fact, she now says that I am her blessing.

- She desperately wants to believe that Mormonism true, and that her stress, depression, and insecurities will go away if she recommits herself to the church. She had a lot more stress and depression in her first marriage (to an RM), and during a time when she was UBER-TBM. Now, the major source of her depression is that she's not more active in the church.

- Last Sunday was the first time she went to church in over a month, and that was only because the sister missionaries we had over for dinner last week made a special point of inviting her to sit with them during the sacrament meeting.

- While eating at a new Italian restaurant in the neighborhood, we were each treated with a complimentary Tiramisu martini, which my wife readily drank. Her only comment was that she appreciated that they didn't spare the vodka.

"In Sacred Loneliness" by Todd Compton, and "Mormon Polygamy" by Richard Van Wagoner.

FYI, the book by Hales is actually far from unbiased. Hales tries his darnedest to justify Smith's polygamy. Since Hales' book has been printed, I've read a number of scholars take down significant Hale arguments. But, eventhough Hales whitewashes Smith's polygamy, most TBMs will still find Hale's book disturbing.

The two books I list at the top do a fantastic job of sticking to the facts and letting the reader draw their own conclusions. And, for a TBM, the conclusions are often going to be earth-moving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2016 11:00AM by wonderingnomore.

I second Compton's book. He is a member in good standing. If she wants to know more about JS and the brainwashed women, this might help her build on what she has started to learn.

Women's issues are what first bothered me too.

no longer TBM. Don't try to sell the book to her that way. It is a great next read.

I did not know he left or got ex'ed. I clearly have not kept up. Still a good book though. Thank you, Hedning.

The bigger issue - bigger than Joe's sexual adventures - is the fact that the church has lied about it.

A church (or religious group, or prophet) that LIES is by definition NOT of God.

D&C 50:17-18
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.

D&C 93:24-26
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The spirit of truth is of God…

D&C 63:17
17 Wherefore, I, the Lord, have said that the fearful, and the unbelieving, and all liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie, and the whoremonger, and the sorcerer, shall have their part in that lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

D&C 129:7
7 ...it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive;...

2 Nephi 9:34
34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

2 Nephi 28:8-11
And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God--he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little ...; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. ...
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully...

Examples of the lies of Mormon leaders and the church:
http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm

Thanks for this, Richard. We spoke a lot about this...the lies. The amount of lying to keep it hidden from his wife, children, the members, and the community.

I spoke about the 10 commandments. The idea that we shouldn't lie and we shouldn't commit adultery. We shouldn't covet, etc. These things all resonated deeply with her.

Again, she truly is a religious person. She's morale. She avoids anything "bad" or even the appearance of anything evil. And she admitted that no morale person could defend the actions of Joseph Smith: it was just wrong.

So, hopefully, this can be a critical step for her.

She fell back on the old refrain, "but how could he have written the book of Mormon! He was only 14...."

We left the conversation there that evening....

I hope this is a new beginning.

The lying was not just denials of the truth. He and his inner
circle (of secret polygamists) told lies to ruin the reputations
of those whose only action was to tell the truth about how JS
and his friends tried to get them to join in polygamy.

Look into what was said about Sarah Pratt, Nancy Rigdon, and
Martha Brotherton. They were approached about becoming
polygamous wives and refused, but they also told what was
proposed to them. They were publicly insulted, libeled, and
lied about to cover JS's and his friend's crimes.

Joseph Smith was scum.

Poor Nancy, she had been like family to the Smiths since she was a little girl. What Joe was proposing was tantamount to incest. No wonder she made a scene. And he threw her under the bus. That's how much Joseph ever cared about anyone. Except maybe Alvin.

This is exactly the reason I chose her name as my board moniker. His treatment of her disgusted me the most, and I also admired her courage.

Just to be clear, Joseph Smith wasn't 14 when he wrote the Book of Mormon. That was when he claimed to have had his first vision. The Book of Mormon was published in 1830 when Joseph Smith was 25.

That's like saying Charles Dickens was put to work as a child to support his family while his father was in prison and also wrote David Copperfield at the same time. Having to work while his father was in prison was a huge influence on Charles Dickens, but David Copperfield was written years later.

Some Mormons use the argument that someone with so little formal education could never have written the Book of Mormon. (His father and Oliver Cowdrey were both school teachers, by the way.) Abraham Lincoln had less formal education than Joseph Smith and he wrote the Gettysburg and 2nd Inaugural Addresses, saved the Union, helped get rid of slavery, etc., etc. etc.

One thing that really startled me was to find that Joseph had "celestially married" several women before he got around to Emma. Is there a way you could help her discover this fact?

When the essay was originally published this caused a lot of problems over on the mormon BabyCenter board. So much so, that they split it off to a new forum. A lot of shelves cracked or broke over this issue. It is illogical that Emma, his legal wife, was so far down the list. Slipped in between a couple of teenagers.



Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
Sealed to wife, Emma, 28 May 1843

Amazingly, at church, JS was being portrayed as a loving family man with Emma, his wife (singular).

Imagine their surprise when they discovered the lies by omission they were being fed in RS and Sunday School!

Yeah, he was SUCH a family man and the family was SO important to the church that they didn't bother mentioning his other wives. What were they, chopped liver? Family my rear!

I gave this to a TBM friend of mine recently. He is in bad health but his mind is open and working fine.

I told him that though his body situation sucks he still has a working mind that can be taught.

I told him he still has time to become part of the universe outside of the mormon bubble. I asked him this question, "What if the biggest adventure you ever undertake is to find out whether the church is actually true or not. You only need your mind and the courage to find out."

He agreed. I said Ok. Here is some homework.

Yourlogicalfallacy.com We were never taught how to think critically. Why is that if the "glory of god is intelligence?"

ldsessays.com I left because of filthy, disgusting, anti-mormon lies. Why is it that they are now mormon truths?

Read the Allegory of the cave. Who am I in the story?

And I wrote out this little snippet and explained it to him.

"If informed consent is harmed in that instant Free Agency/Free Will ceases to exist." Also Free Agency cannot come with a threat or a bribe attached. Remember this in every thing you read from now on. Start with D&C 132. What happened to Emma's Free Agency?

No anti-mormon info at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2016 06:05PM by AmIDarkNow?.

I find it remarkable that so many Mormons refuse to read the gospel topics essays from the official church website. There is so much incriminating material there. It is too bad your wife won't read those. I do not understand how Mormons can view material from the official Mormon website as anti-Mormon.

Heretic 2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find it remarkable that so many Mormons refuse
> to read the gospel topics essays from the official
> church website. There is so much incriminating
> material there. It is too bad your wife won't
> read those. I do not understand how Mormons can
> view material from the official Mormon website as
> anti-Mormon.

The truth be told many if not most are afraid to look. I have had two close member friends tell me that if the church isn't true they wouldn't want to know it.

Awfully dishonest intellectually not to want to know the truth. Don't they realize that?

Perhaps "Mormon Enigma - Emma Hale Smith" would be too much of a leap for your wife at this point, but keep it in mind down the road a bit. My sister is one of the co-authors. Both Val and Linda were active, super-Mormon, women when they wrote the biography of Emma (both later left the church). Your wife may find the biography of Emma less threatening than a biography of Joseph, but her story can't be told without Joseph.

At the time it was published 2 apostles took issue with the book and banned them from speaking in their respective wards. Now, the essays on the church website concur with Mormon Enigma's historical narrative.

It is out of print, but I believe it is still available on Amazon. If you can't locate a copy, I have one I'll send to you.

very kind offer, thank you! I'll look it up on Amazon and keep that as a 'later' book to read with her.

I really like the idea of 'in sacred loneliness' as the next step.

My plan is to read the book now that she has; discuss it with her and read 'in sacred loneliness' as a follow up. We love talking books together and I think if I read it; she will so we can talk further about her feelings. She was uber-TBM and is really bothered by this....

I recommend Mormon Enigma, also. Great biography of Emma.

Women need to hear how other women at that time were affected by polygamy.

Also, Carol Lynn Pearson (active, slightly rebellious, Mormon) recently had a book about polygamy published. She's an excellent writer and very anti-polygamy. "The Ghosts of Polygamy" I think is the title, or something similar.

Best of luck to you!

"Mormon Enigma" was one of the first ones I read on the actual history of the church. Checked it out from my university library where I was attending at the time. The other one was "No Man Knows My History," by Fawn Brodie.

I'd recommend both for your wife, or for yourself.

They're as factual and informative a primer on the early church years as anything that's been printed since IMO. Plus, being written by women was probably easier for me to read, and appreciate their POV and perspective as former Mormons themselves.

You can't unlearn this stuff once it finds you! Better late than never. I was born into the Mormon cult. It's thanks to some people who came before like Valleen Tippetts Avery, Linda Newell, and Fawn Brodie who helped to pave the way for people like me to find our way out of the labyrinth.

I just finished ordering my very own copy of Mormon Enigma, in hardcover, as a Christmas present to myself. :-)

There seems to be an ample supply of new copies left on Amazon, in soft cover. I found mine elsewhere - hardcover isn't as common to find for this book.

So does she finally understand that *you're* the one that's been telling the truth all this time, and that you haven't been deceived by Satan?

Also, that bit about the 14 year old boy writing the BOM -

Morms have trouble with counting sometimes.
1820 + 10 = 1830, therefore
14 + 10 = 24

So if her "testimony" is based on JS still being 14 years old in 1830, you can helpfully point out that her "testimony" can be proven false by first-grade arithmetic.

The critics aren't lying, the church is

What kind of "Heavenly Father" needs to lie to his children?

It was disturbing and not just about the polygamy, but how the women acted. They really enjoyed their elite status in the church, those who were married to the leaders. And the fact they would speak in tongues and then one of the other women would SING the translation. That blew my mind.

Also, Zina Huffington made some comment about not getting too close to your spouse as it would cause problems with the other wives.

A real shocker to my ex and I was touring BY's home in St. George when we were still believers and one of the displays said that BY always brought his youngest wife with him to SG.

After reading ISL, I realized that mormonism is about lack of emotional intimacy.

YAY! Hopefulhusband, you had disappeared a while back and I have wondered how you and your wife were doing. It''s good to hear that she has started taking baby steps - before you know it she'll be running! It is critical right now for you to be as amazing and wonderful of a loving husband that you can possibly be! You don't want her throwing you out with the church's filthy bath water!