Original Subject Line: What the f**k? I was excommunicated???

I've been trying to do some research on my great-great grandfather, a mormon "pioneer" and polygamist, because I think he may have been involved in the MMM. A TBM aunt who's also suspicious has been helping me out, since she has access to the free LDS family history stuff and I don't.

This morning she e-mailed me a bunch of docs from the LDS family history records. My church entry is on one of them. It lists me as excommunicated on May 23, 1981.

The thing is -- I'm completely unaware of any such excommunication. I asked the church to remove my name from the records in 1981. Now, this was before the ground-breaking suit that forced the church to implement a "resignation" process, but I went through my bishop (and SP), and was assured that my name had been removed as a member. I've never had any communication from the church about a "court of love" or an excommunication.

I've got some digging to do, and I want to get to the bottom of this. Yeah, I know in the "big scheme" of things it really doesn't matter, but dammit -- I resigned, I wasn't excommunicated. Asshats.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 04:19PM by Maude.

No, you didn't resign, you were excommunicated.

You forget that TSCC lives in an alternate reality where only they make the rules and define the terms. Because saying that you "resigned" would have implied that you had actual power and authority over your own life, this was unacceptable in their reality. Hence your "resigned" became their "excommunicated"--i.e., something that THEY did, that was THEIR decision, because you lacked the ability to decide for yourself.

Things may have loosened up since then--they've seen some of the writing on the wall--and church records may more accurately reflect that reality that most of the rest of us live in, but 35 years ago the monolith kept its walls cleaner than they do today.

good luck.

It's my understanding that before the resignation process was forced on them by that ground-breaking suit, the only means that the church had for removing members was excommunication. That's why that lawsuit was required. The guy wanted to resign, but the church had no process to do it and was going to excommunicate him. You were either a member, or you were excommunicated, the lawsuit changed that.

So when you asked to be removed from membership, you were basically asking, in their minds, for an excommunication and they accommodated you. So, it's very likely that you were excommunicated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 11:38AM by Finally Free!.

Finally Free! Wrote:
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> So when you asked to be removed from membership,
> you were basically asking, in their minds, for an
> excommunication and they accommodated you. So,
> it's very likely that you were excommunicated.

Yeah, I know...however, no "call" to a court, no letter (or personal communication) of action taken, no nothing -- and I find out 35 years later what they did.

It's not like they didn't know where I lived at the time, they did.

I'm just guessing here, but they probably figured no court was required. In their minds, you directly told them that you wanted an excommunication, so they filed the paperwork. Since this was before the resignation process was created, and I don't believe they mailed letters confining excommunication, they didn't send you anything. As far as they were concerned, you wanted out, they did what they needed to to let you out. The Bishop and SP confirmed that you were no longer a member. No one specifically said excommunication, but that was their only method to remove a member, so they used it.

So, you asked, they filed the paperwork. In someways, other than the stigma associated with excommunication, that's even easier than the current resignation process today (with the whole "local matter", bishop's contacting people, multiple letters, etc).

I was in a bishopric in the pre-resignation days. The one time we had a Ward member ask to be removed, we held a court. I'm pretty certain that he was informed and invited to attend, but (to nobody's surprise) he didn't show up.

It's been about 30 years, but I believe that we were following church policies.

Run with it! Tell people that you were exed because you married other men's wives & slept with 14 year old girls. That you started your own bank & paid tithing with your own money that you printed. Tell them that you thought that behavior was going to put you on the fast track to be prophet, but they exed you instead.

I agree that you should run with it!

After learning the true order of prayer, you were inspired to be sealed to every prophet; past and living. But the true church exed you instead.

That would make great reading on that LDS Living website.

I know. They could have at least sent out invitations and catered the event. Right? A book for guests to sign perhaps?

You aren't even told. No document to frame. No tally of the votes. Tacky.

Are we surprised?

It is a very odd thing to find out. I hope you do get to the bottom of it.

The church got to label you an apostate without your knowledge or court martial of love.

You left before the legal victory that made possible for us lay people to resign without being ex'd.

Same net outcome. Only you left on their terms, and they didn't inform you.

It was calculated on their part.

Don't they consider anyone who leaves the church an apostate?

"Only you left on their terms"

This doesn't make sense to me. ificouldhietokolob requested to no longer be a member, they didn't kick him out, they filed the paperwork at his request, just like they did for me. Only they were forced to use a different label for me because I happened to resign after a lawsuit forced them to stop using the term "excommunicated".

He left on his terms. Do you really think the church leadership thinks anything different about how he and I left because of that label? We're all apostates for leaving the church.

His terms didn't intend for the inclusion of the label "excommunicated" or the stigma associated with that. It was for exactly that reason that the lawsuit happened.

Agreed, but that lawsuit didn't fix that at the time. Maybe if they had been more forthcoming about the terminology when they filed the paperwork with ificouldhietokolob, he could have sued and the resignation process could have been allowed sooner.

That doesn't change the fact that when ificouldhietokolob chose to leave, he left. The church didn't force him out nor force him to stay. He left when he wanted to.

Only he can state whether or not he would have accepted the "excommunication" if they had told him that that was the only way for them to process his exit from the church at the time.

The label "excommunicated" implies being forced out. LDS members interpret it to mean that and in their TBM imaginations associate it with all kinds of sins justifying the excommunication. He can argue until he is blue in the face that he resigned under his terms but the database that only LDS members can access says otherwise and is smearing him.

Finally Free! Wrote:
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> Only he can state whether or not he would have
> accepted the "excommunication" if they had told
> him that that was the only way for them to process
> his exit from the church at the time.

Oh, I'm sure I would have.
Though I would have argued with them (no surprise there to anybody who knows me).

What really gets me, though, is that 35 years later, I'm still finding out new things that this cult lied to me about.

They say we exmos can't leave them alone...but we keep finding new things to be pissed off at them for. Like this.

Quite honestly...if you don't care (and I understand if you do..), I would post that on your FB page...AND the official LDS page...stating:

Hey LDS church leaders, While doing some family research, I see that I am listed as "Excommunicated". I resigned officially going thru Bishop (X) and Stake President (Y) back in 1981. There must be a clerical error regarding this. Can you pls list me on the official church records as resigned? Thanks for your help in this matter.

I would be interested to see what their response would be. yes...this is easier said than done, which is why I said if you don't care about the ramifications.

So....I resigned 4 years ago. Would my name be on their leger as resigned or ex-communicated? Not that I give a rusty fuck one way or the other. I ex'd the church 45 years ago.

RB

You would most likely be listed as "Resigned" in their databases.

Oh, good!

RB

The mormon church NEVER uses the term "resigned."

Couldn't have happened to a more deserving mormon! Now you get to lord it over the rest of us.

Although I still have the priesthood and you don't!! Neener neener!!!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> Although I still have the priesthood and you
> don't!! Neener neener!!!

That and $4.50 will get you a latte at Starbucks...:)

Ruh roh! Rou scrood!

Raybe rue roudn't ry ru ractice raw ritrout ra ricense!

1) They have records indicating who was excommunicated and who "requested name removal". A lawsuit to require them to update their records to clarify that pre-1985 name-removal excommunications were actually resignations, not excommunications might actually succeed. Being listed as excommunicated carries an implication that the person was thrown out for some moral failure, which is not the case.

2) I wonder if post-1985 resignations are listed as resignations, or if it lists the date the person "requested name removal"? Since most people actually sent in letters of resignation, and the courts recognize their right to resign, a suit to require their records to reflect that the person resigned might also succeed. I think that's a weaker case than the top one, but not completely hopeless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 12:33PM by Brother Of Jerry.

The court ruling when it came out did not apply retroactively. Which explains why hie2kolob's resignation is still counted as an excommunication.

That is the way resigning looked in 1981, on church records.

I have confidence in you my friend that you can get to the bottom of this shit pile.. They'll be so sorry they thought they could get away with this deceit.

Let us know what happens. :)

My then inactive brother received a letter in the post from his old ward (that he left in his teens and my family no longer attended, not sure where they got the address from) when his son was about 6 months old, back in the 90s. It notified him that in his absence he had been excommunicated for having a child out of wedlock. It was common knowledge at both church locations that my parents were becoming grandparents. I don't know who the zealous person who decided upon the in absentia court of love but my brother cared not - he hadn't been to church in over 10 years and the kid was not planned, but he said "I don't really care, I wouldn't change it". No-one told my folks who only found out after he died and got him re-dunked.

Sounds like they took you off their records the only way they knew how. I'd be pleased if they exed me as I could tell everyone that they exed me for learning the true/factual history of the 'faith/movement'. They'd have exed me because I was a danger to their local membership and that was their only protection against any influence I might have had.

Don't give them any power to make you mad - laugh at their insidious attempts to make themselves feel grandiose.

the rest of us who have resigned are listed as even after the court case. Has anyone else seen their record who has resigned?

I haven't seen mine but I have my final out letter. Any questions by members of the church or contradictory database info will be responded to by me with copies of that letter which is an official record that I resigned.

ificouldhietokolob would benefit from having a letter like that. They didn't do it back then before the lawsuit but maybe its time for the COJCOLDS to clean up their records and do right by those who resigned before resignation was an option.

THE Morg has NO CLAIM to telling ppl that they deal with their members in a Christ-Like manner.

What's really bothersome to me is the schism between excommunication, resigning, and then post-humous rebaptizing us after we're deceased.

That is the most heinous, sick practice of them all. The morg will sit on these records recording our dates of death, just so they can file our names with the temple workers when the time comes.

Same thing happened to me. I sent in a letter of resignation in March and they held a court and excommunicated me in absence in June. This was back in 1991. Not going back there. I am just glad to be out and free.

I left the church in the late 1950s. I discovered I was still on a ward mailing list in my new city (my dad must have sent them my address) and so I contacted the local bishop and told him to take my name off the membership lists. He did, by excommunicating me, which was the only way they did it back then. I did not get any notice of a church court, I only got a letter telling me that I had been excommunicated.

Years later I phoned the records department of the church and asked them the status of my membership. The clerk could not find my name, and told me I was not a member, and asked why I thought I was. When I told him, he said, "Oh, you are in a different database." He took a few minutes and then told me that their records showed that I had been "exommunicated at MEMBER'S REQUEST."

I suggest the OP call member records and see if that is the notation on his records.

What did they ex you for? If you call the records dept. they will tell you. They can be a cranky bunch, especially if you start laughing at their answers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 03:44PM by madalice.

I can remember as a kid that they announced in Sacrament Meeting that so-and-so was excommunicated "at his own request."

Getting-in-their-last-shot-ly yrs,

S

Ificouldhietokolob"

You are so right. There is a HUGE difference between resigning, and being X'd. Being X'd does/can put a big stigma on you (and those who judge others are more than willing to spread such news around).

Being X'd can cause damage family-wise, and job wise--which is why church officials like to use it, to put this stigma on such as yourself--to deliberately harm someone.

Advice to all: To protect yourself, put all such communication in writing (if leaving the church), and make sure you have a copy.

And, if you are up to it, threaten a suit for having misrepresented and abused you, unless they write a letter of apology for doing so.

Those jerks do this kind of stuff a lot, in fact I sent in resignation everything to my bishop and those letters "disappeared" I'm still on record! I even did the whole "Don't stray from the cult" talks with him and he said he would send them in but lo and behold I was still on there. He put the letter in his bag, so I asked him to show me them after I barged into the end of Sacrament one day and he flat out told me he threw them away. So I'm an exmormon only in spirit as of now.

You need to send the letter to the Member Records department in SLC. If the bishop does not complete the paperwork, Member Records will do so on his behalf after 60 days.

http://www.exmormon.org/remove.htm

Does that make him a head covering for equus africanus asinus then?

According to your rationale, you quit. According to their rationale, you cannot just quit, so they have to excommunicate you. It wasn't until late 80's or early '90's when they made the change to allow someone to remove their name......and that was still not quitting in their eyes I am sure.

Oh ya. There is this strange condition that all LDS have: they cannot say: resigned, nor can they spell it properly. They spell it: excommunicated!

I'm convinced that everyone that has resigned their membership is shown as excommunicated in their files.
I don't think they have any other place to put people who resign their membership.

Maybe someone with some inside scoop can verify it?

When you left, the church called it "voluntary excommunication". They would not let you leave; they just exed you with your consent.

There were 2 legal cases in the 1980s that changed this so that you could resign. However, the process and the implications are the same. You cannot just "unresign" if you want to go back; you have to go through the same repentance process as an excommunicant.

Ref: http://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you left, the church called it "voluntary
> excommunication". They would not let you leave;
> they just exed you with your consent.

Well, actually -- they exed me without my consent. I didn't consent to be ex'd. I told them I quit.

It won't be a job issue for me ever (I wouldn't work for mormons anyway!), apparently (my aunt told me this today) the whole family has known for some time (and nobody said anything) -- they thought I knew, too. I didn't, I was never notified they were going to do it, or notified they had done it.

And no, it's not that big of a deal -- just that once again they lied to me. Asshats.

I'm going to call/write and find out the reason. I hope it's "at member request." If it says anything about moral nonsense, I'm going to be mad again :)

Isn't that some sort of breach of privacy or something? How could they do that with your personal information in the first place?

It's on the member records that people doing "family" searches can access. My "record" there (which is what I saw) lists my birthdate, blessing date, baptism/confirmation dates, priesthood ordination dates (all 4 of them), "endowment" date, mission dates & details, and then lastly my excommunication date.

I'm calling records today. I'll return & report.

What the fuck indeed. Can't wait to read how this all plays out.

I'm only weighing in on this because of your last comment about family searches being able to access your information. This is what the whole 80's lawsuit was about. A woman was disciplined by her church after the fact of her resignation. She won because the court said they could not discipline someone, especially publically to other church members, who was no longer a member.

I'd first contact someone in records and let them know that not only have you not been accorded confidentiality but you have been publically humiliated due to illegally posting information that did not apply to you since you were resigned from the church. Excommunication is considered a disciplinary sanction and not a change in member status. Since a legal precedent has been set on this issue I'd say you have more than a leg to stand on. Keep copies of all your communication on this matter. First, give them the opportunity to do the right thing by changing your status from excommunicated to resigned. But first find out if there even is a resignation status by doing a family search (can you or your aunt do this?) for people you know have resigned.

If nothing is resolved by being nice I'd be more than willing, if I were in your shoes, to contact a legal entity to find out if they can be forced to change this policy. I think the precedent has been set and should be held to by all churches.

I feel your pain. Makes me wonder if I'm resigned or excommunicated even though I resigned in the 21st century.

Good luck with this. You have every right to be annoyed.

Oh, I agree. It's not "shame" that's at issue...it's facts.
You know me and facts, Moose...:)

I was in a bishopric in the late eighties. An elderly lady requested to resign but at the time the only way to have your name removed was an excommunication. She begged the bishop to let her resign and not be excommunicated. She cried and cried.

To the bishop credit he called Salt Lake to see if she could just resign but they said no. Stupid church.

It still haunts me how sad this lady was not being able to resign.

Some of my worst memories are church courts. Horrible!!!

I have an update...

I spent about 1.5 hours on the phone with "Membership Records" (in case anyone needs it, the phone # is 801-240-2053). A cheery "sister" answered.

I explained that I left the church in 1981, and was dismayed to find out this week that I had been excommunicated. I explained that I had received no notice of a church court, no letter detailing the results of any such court, or any notice that I had been excommunicated. And that I wanted to know the reason for the excommunication.

First, she told me I should contact my bishop from that time. I reminded her that this was 35 years ago, and that the bishop had died 7 years ago -- and that the stake president was also dead, so please don't suggest I contact him. She then put me on hold for about 15 minutes.

When she came back, she said she couldn't tell me anything over the phone, but if I'd give her my membership # and current address, she would mail me the information. I let her know that a) I didn't have a membership #, and b) I had no desire whatsoever to give the church my current address, and c)after keeping me in the dark 35 years, it shouldn't be too much of an imposition to look up my records and tell me over the phone.

Back on hold for another 10-12 minutes.

Now a "brother" came on. He said he might be able to help me if I gave him some information. So he asked for, and I provided, date of birth, parents' names, date (and location) of baptism, date (and location) of endowment -- fortunately I had all the correct dates from what my aunt had sent me, so I didn't have to go from memory on those. He seemed impressed that I got all the dates correct (he was confirming them on his computer) -- I didn't tell him I had the records my aunt sent over. I gently pointed out, in case it would help, my close relation to a former SLC church big-wig. Hey, it couldn't hurt, right?

So he gets all my information, confirms that my record does indeed say "excommunication," then puts me on hold again.

For another 10 minutes.

He finally comes back, and says if I'd like a copy of the actual letter the SP sent out (which he never actually DID send), it would take them a few weeks, and I'd have to give them my address. I told him I just wanted to know the reason for the excommunication, which he could tell me over the phone.

He paused. I heard a few keys tap. Pause again.

"Apostasy," he said.

"That's all it says?" I asked.

"Yes."

"Nothing about at my own request?"

"No."

I thanked him. I told him that if I decided I wanted a copy of the letter, I'd get back to them. I hung up.

Then I said a few choice swear words about the cult.

Asshats.

Hahahahahaha!

"Apostatized at his own request!"


ETA: go ahead a get a copy of the letter. You can use my PO Box if you want, where I got my BYU magazine today!

I bet the content of that letter will be hilarious!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 07:40PM by elderolddog.

I knew of sister that did not want her name removed from the church records. She was not active, but enjoyed the monthly visits. The bishop, however wanted names purged from the rolls. Sure enough, a bunch of members' names disappeared from the next stake directory. They were removed without member consent. My mom was the VT and got an earful.

Later as membership clerk, I came across a small locked box. Nobody claimed to have the key, but suspected that it contained the hard copies of members that were inappropriately removed. I asked the current bishop for the key, but he wasn't given one. He did grant me permission to break it outside of the chapel. I crushed the box at home and every record was recorded with an excommunication. They were definitely from the illegal clean up.

I forgot to add that the membership clean up occurred in the mid 80s. I came across the records ten years later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 08:42PM by messygoop.

I'm not surprised.

The nasty cult gets the last word!

"Excommunication" is on your geneological record forever, for all your progeny to read and wonder what terrible sin you committed. I'm sure that all of this will discover this on our permanent record, too. I've lived my whole life as a moral, law-abiding, honest, hard-working human being--and that nasty cult will slander me for many generations to come.

It's the cult's way of getting even with you.

This is nastier than desecrating a person's grave! This is the same thing as slander, is it not?

Tonight when my wife and I are attempting to calm our children to get them ready for bed, before we read to them, I'll play and sing a round of "If You Could Hie to Kolob" in your honor. The younger baby will just dance, but the almost-two-year-old may ask what song THAT is. I'll tell him it's a nursery rhyme.

scmd Wrote:
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> Tonight when my wife and I are attempting to calm
> our children to get them ready for bed, before we
> read to them, I'll play and sing a round of "If
> You Could Hie to Kolob" in your honor. The younger
> baby will just dance, but the almost-two-year-old
> may ask what song THAT is. I'll tell him it's a
> nursery rhyme.

Sadly, it's one without a happy ending. But have fun with the kids! :)

Congratulations.