Or offer premarital counseling to non-TBMs?

Last night I watched the video linked in the "Creepy Voice" thread,
and was intrigued by the topic: a fireside with a relatively new
couple in which the husband was formerly a Lutheran pastor, and the
wife was formerly an Episcopal priest.

Naturally, this would be really faith promoting: two former members
of the Christian clergy have discovered the twooth and joined the one
twoo church!

I was intrigued enough to do a little research, and found this story:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865606546/Former-priest-pastor-
share-their-journey-to-Mormon-faith.html?pg=all

Of course, the reality doesn't stack up like that when you read
between the lines. These weren't two successful ministers who
converted to Mormonism. Both had suffered adversity of some type, and
their ministries had fallen apart, as well as each's prior marriage.

The reality is that these were two broken people who were vulnerable
to one of the morg's strategies: get 'em while they're down. Same as
untold numbers of TSCC victims.

The wife--described as coming from a broken home, and going into the
ministry in some ways to overcome that, and then suffering her own
divorce--must have been particularly susceptible to the "families are
forever" sales pitch from the "family religion." She's described as
being attracted to Mormonism because of seeing how Mitt Romney
interacted in a loving way with his family, and saying "I want some
of that." Come on. Any number of politicians are lovey-dovey with
their families. If she fell for that, then she's incredibly weak-
minded, but I suspect this is just pablum they vomit at firesides.

Speaking of pablum, the husband is quoted as saying “there is a
mandate to hasten the work," with "infectious enthusiasm." What does
that even mean? But how fast people start to assimilate...

The article makes it clear that the husband's ministry was over, for
all intents and purposes, and the wife apparently worked at a
retirement center, not a church. These were not first string
ministers in either of their respective denominations. I don't mean
to be cruel, just honest.

Sadly, I see them acting in a pattern I saw any number of times
growing up in christian churches: new couple is all-in on day one. I
don't know that it's a behavior pattern that works well in TSCC (and
it doesn't always in christian churches, which are often cults of
personality).

Anyway, as I said above, I was intrigued enough to do a little
research. In addition to the above "faith promoting" article, I saw
that they had been hustled through a number of firesides in about the
2014 time frame.

So... I started to wonder how long these two would last as TBMs. How
two people with substantial theological education would last against
mindless testimony, and as converts how they would adapt to living at
the bottom of the heap, cleaning toilets, etc. The chipper christian
"all-in from day one" behavior pattern is designed to move couples to
the "top," not the bottom. But there is no "top" for most folks.

I couldn't find any recent fireside announcements. I suspected that
these folks would be run through as many dog-and-pony shows as they
could stand, chewed up, and ultimately spit out (when they wised up).

The only recent thing I could find was a thumbtack link for the
husband who apparently late in 2014 started officiated weddings:
https://www.thumbtack.com/md/lusby/wedding-officiants/pastoral-care-services

Working in retirement communities is not first string vocational work
for christian ministers. Wedding officiating is bottom rung.

Anyway, so I'm wondering how the Morg would view a member conducting
weddings and offering premarital counseling to gentiles.

I'm guessing that if these two haven't bailed on TSCC yet, they will
sooner or later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2016 11:23PM by nomonomo.

Thanks for the research, NMNM.

Looks like they got excited about being bigger fish in another small pond.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the research, NMNM.

My pleasure. ;)

> Looks like they got excited about being bigger
> fish in another small pond.

Yeah, I sort of see them as trying to fake it till they make it. Perhaps they didn't realize that there's nothing to make it to.

Nomonomo, I had similar thoughts as you about them. At first it seemed unlikely, but reading between the lines you could see that they were both coming from a place of difficulty.

I was also intrigued and checked them out online. I saw the thumbtack site, and wasn't sure if his profile was an older one or not. None of the reviews appeared to be dated.

Still curious, I found the wife on Facebook. I found one recent lds themed item posted by one of her contacts to her page, but that seemed to be all for quite some time back.

Like you I wonder how long they will last.

looking in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nomonomo, I had similar thoughts as you about
> them. At first it seemed unlikely, but reading
> between the lines you could see that they were
> both coming from a place of difficulty.

Absolutely. And, as we know, this is a prime time for missionaries to strike.


> I was also intrigued and checked them out online.
> I saw the thumbtack site, and wasn't sure if his
> profile was an older one or not. None of the
> reviews appeared to be dated.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was intrigued by this!

The reviews I see are dated from Oct 2014 to Oct 2015.
So they are clearly after all the firesides, but also seem to
end about a year ago (which hopefully indicates he found some
better way to earn a living).


> Like you I wonder how long they will last.

Yes, I'm not digging to be cruel or make fun of them. I'm
honestly hoping that they've already found their way out of
Mormonism.

My DH, as an ordained minister (Elder), performed our son's marriage. We didn't ask TSSC permission...what they don't know ....well, you know, why tell them?

State governments recognize religious marriages as legal as long as the State paperwork is filled out, which is what they really care about.

I became an ordained minister through an online ministry, and performed my daughter's wedding. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, the State of Utah does not recognize marriages performed by ministers with online ordinations. Just another way TSCC's tentacles pervade Utah State politics.

Sure they do. My spouse performed my son's wedding recently based off an online ordination and the Utah county clerk's office accepted it just fine.

Well, what do ya know! Evidently, the Universal Life Church sued the State of Utah and won the case!

Statute 3-1-6 states that ministers, rabbis or priests must be regular communion with any religious organization. "Regular communion" sounds like you need to be an active member of a religious society - not simply have a piece of paper saying you are a member.

The following statute was found to be unconstitutional.

30-1-6.1. Ordination by Internet not valid.
Certification, licensure, ordination, or any other endorsement received by a person through application over the Internet or by mail that purports to give that person religious authority is not valid for the purposes of Subsection 30-1-6(1)(a).

In addition, Utah law provides in pertinent part: "If any person not authorized solemnizes a marriage under pretense of having authority… he shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison not exceeding three years." Utah Code Ann. §30-1-14 (1998).

http://ulccaselaw.com/ulc-case-law-legal-blog/ulc-court-cases-universal-life-church-v-state-of-utah/

PollyDee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, what do ya know! Evidently, the Universal
> Life Church sued the State of Utah and won the
> case!

Yes, thank God for the ULC, who fought and won and won the battle so that virtually anyone can officiate marriages. In other words, any fake religion is good enough! ;) Not just the most pompous and self-important (and judgmental, etc).

I find it really, really odd that neither pastor could find employment in a church in his or her faith tradition. I think there is likely a lot more to this story than is found in the article. And yes, I also find it odd that a mainstream minister with extensive theological training could buy into Mormonism. One would be an strange enough. But a couple? And Meredith's ability to embrace a woman's subservient role in Mormonism after being a female Episcopal minister is likewise inexplicable.

I think that for whatever reason they both came to the end of the line in their respective careers. Mormonism represented a "new opportunity" that they both desperately needed. Perhaps a book is in the works.

I also think it's hilarious that the Deseret News cites "doctrinal disagreements" with why Randy left the Catholic church of his birth. This is a classic (and perfectly acceptable) reason why mainstream Christians leave one denomination for another. As if Mormons could ever use that reason to leave their church.

All good observations, summer!

Yes they can, but the officiator is required to read the proclamation to the family.

This ended up w/ something v. bizarre at a friend's wedding. To appease the groom's mother they were married by the local bish.

Because of the male rules over female bullshit in the PttF and the anti-homosexuality, the non-TBMs in the audience (70% of the people) were made really uncomfortable and really put-off by the reading.

Both man and woman of the marrying couple are top of the company in their respective jobs and theirs is a true melding of equals. (she heads a department of a huge world famous software company, he's the same for a hardware company)

When everyone asked the couple why the bish read that stuff - and they told them it was required, the Morg actually made enemies of the non-Tbms who heard it.

elfling_notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes they can, but the officiator is required to
> read the proclamation to the family.

> When everyone asked the couple why the bish read
> that stuff - and they told them it was required,
> the Morg actually made enemies of the non-Tbms who
> heard it.

Yeah, I'd imagine that would go over like a lead balloon, especially for a guy trying to hire out to perform weddings (for, I presume, mostly non-LDS people).

Ok, thanks for replies everyone.

I guess I was a little unclear in what I was asking (and wondering about).

I know that virtually any "priesthood" holder is going to be able to satisfy the ecclesiastical requirements in most states to perform weddings. ( I would say "unfortunately," but thanks to the fight waged by the ULC even a clown can perform marriages -- no offense meant to clowns ) ;)


What I'm really wondering is how the "leadership" is going to view a guy who's earning his living (or some portion of it) by solemnizing weddings, especially of non-TBMs.

I just don't see that as the "fast track" up the ranks of his ward, etc. And I would sort of expect it to be frowned up.

And, can we assume this is evidence, perhaps, of him already navigating his way out. ??

Mmmmmyeah, leadership ain't gonna like it, are they? Used to be that a bishop or BP could perform weddings for non-Mormons, but I'm reasonably sure (not really sure) they are no longer allowed to do this. (Unless, possibly, it could be a money-maker for TSCC.)

In Mormonism - to perform marriages you have to be a Bishop and upwards. The stake President has to approve first. The Cult of the Living Dead do not give their powers to marry to all the men.

In Alberta a bishop recieves a yearly commision by the province to perform marriages. Whether one actually would officiate a nonmo weeding would be a personal choice of the bish. In our case, my wife to be was Catholic (still is) and the bishop who performed the ceremony had been released from the bishop calling but his licence was still in effect and he was glad to marry us 43 years ago.

RB



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 01:37PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

If she was an Episcopalian priest and is willing to relegate herself to person with a vagina who can have no real leadership role, she was probably a real flop as a minister.

^^^ Indeedy NormaRae... wish there was a "like" button to hit for your post. :-)

My daughter-in-law in Wyoming, a member of TSCC but not active at all, (nor is my son) recently performed a marriage ceremony for a long-time friend, going into her third marriage. She got a certificate online from the Universal Life Church. I'm not sure how she came up with that but her friend paid her $200.00!

I didn't hear her say much about it, but apparently she did such a good job she's had a couple of other requests to perform the ceremony.

No church involved, she did have to "register" with the state.

My widowed mother-in-law was remarried in our home to a non-member, by a member of the Stake Presidency (a friend) in our stake. (As he almost couldn't make the date, we faced the possibility of my husband--a High Priest--performing this marriage himself.

We liked this man a lot, and he treated our children very well (giving each of them a certified non-issued silver dollar, in a see-through sealed container). He worked for the government in making money and destroying old paper bills, and took us and the kids to see these operations.

Our children had no other grandfather at the time, and he did a lot to fill this bill.

His one problem was being a serious "drinker" (to excess), but he never let this interfere with his generous kindness.