When I told my spouse of my disbelief last year I didn't push the whole tithing thing until the start of the new year this year.

At the start of 2016 I made it clear that I didn't want money I earn to go towards tithing. My spouse runs their own business and makes money, and I told my spouse I would never tell them what to do with their money but if they truly want to pay tithing then it needed to be paid on what they earn. I also added that it should be good enough for a bishop or stake president to ensure they can have their temple recommend.

Before this all occurred, my spouse would transfer funds from the checking account when I would reiceve each of my paychecks. They would move those funds to a special savings account that they used to pay electronically/online out to the church. For their business they get paid via PayPal for their business and money is transferred to the bank as needed and they have a card attached to that account to be able to pay for things easily where Paypal isn't directly accepted. It's also good to note that I am the "primary" earner in the home seeing as I'm the apostate and all that doesn't want their money they earn going to TSCC.

I get it, shame on me for not watching it more closley but I went into that savings account online for some reason and noticed that my spouse has continued to pull money out of there and to the church. The money I earn and paying it to an organization I cannot and do not agree with nor want to fund in any way. I really thought things were going well, while my spouse is still TBM, I was under the belief that we were supportive of each other. I only know this is still happening because I'm seeing the small movements of money to that account and the deduction coming straight from the church.


Anyone else had this happen?! If so how did you handle it? I'm at a loss right now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 10:10AM by goodeye.

Sorry about the trust issue being violated by the Mormon's again. Time to limit/change who has access to the Bank Account. Can you open another account at a different location.

When people say "trust me", you can tell them you do but then follow up to verify.

I can't see a marriage surviving when there is little or no trust.

You need to have a separate account the other spouse doesn't know about. Or have an agreement to keep the accounts separate IMO.

That way, spouse can do as he/she wishes with her own money, and so can you without further disruption.

Otherwise, it's going to lead to more resentment, unpaid bills &/or checks bouncing, and a very unhappy camper!

You have confirmed she is willfully doing this?

SNAFUs occur with this sort of thing, where the auto withdrawal is not stopped even though it was supposed to be (either in a pull or push transaction). I would start by assuming it was a mistake and take steps to correct it yourself -- call bank and say you no longer will allow transfers to the LDS Corporation.

The withdrawal is not automatic I've confirmed that thus far with the bank.

The money being moved was being done so manually and paid via their LDS.ORG account for the donations, there is not an automatic payment scheduled as far as I can tell, the dates the donations went through are too spradic and not in any pattern.

The money being moved was also being moved slowly. Looking over statements it seems my wishes were being honored but something occurred within the last few months (and funny enough the timing of them getting their Temple recommend re-upped)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 10:57AM by goodeye.

"She"? After OP went to some lengths to not specify gender of spouse.

It is often the husband that is the TBM. There are posts by women to that effect here every week. Don't assume the TBM is a "she".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 10:34PM by Brother Of Jerry.

Mea culpa for jumping to conclusions. I suppose I assumed it was a common Mormon household where the husband has the salaried job and the wife has a small business that would operate using PayPal. I should know there are exceptions to that.

Time to have another conversation with the spouse. You might want to consider having a separate bank account.

I agree 100% with summer's idea of separate accounts. My husband and I have separate accounts because when we got together, he didn't feel comfortable with not keeping a check register and balancing the checkbook monthly. When we moved, we kept the separate accounts although we are both on each others accounts. It worked out great. Our money is our money, but it just adds that little bit of a feeling of independence.

If I were in the OP's place, I would take half of the money plus the amount that has been dishonestly paid to lsddom out of the savings account and move it to a separate account in a different bank in my name only.

Then, arrange how your share of the household expenses are to be paid and how much money you will contribute to your spouse's savings account, if indeed you do contribute to it.
Then let him/her do whatever he/she wants to until the money is gone.

I would open the account and transfer half of the money first and then talk to him/her about why you did this and how you feel.

It should stimulate an honest dialogue. If you want to keep it there for awhile or forever, you can.

What is amazing is the compulsion Mormons have to hand over their hard earned money to TSCC. Mind-boggling now that I am out.

This is about more than a bank account and tithing. It's time to have the tough talk. It's time to state that you are not #2 to the Mormon church. Spouse knew exactly what they were doing. This is a serious issue.

There is no way to prove what the spouse knew. And if s/he genuinely forgot about the agreement, there's going to be a disaster when the OP accuses her/him of deliberate wrongdoing.

If there was deliberate wrongdoing, and the OP wants to preserve this relationship, the OP will have to find some way for the deceitful spouse to save face while apologizing and making amends.

" . . . the OP will have to find some way for the deceitful spouse to save face while apologizing and making amends."

Now there's a direct, grown-up approach! Not.

That sounds like the way they handle things on sit-coms in order make the half hour entertaining.

If you are suggesting that the spouse just "forgot" the agreement about the time they needed a temple recommend, you have got to be kidding me. The proof you require is in the bank statements.

You missed the point of my post which was that there are more serious issues here that need to be dealt with regarding the apostate being pushed to second in importance behind the Mormon church.

Making sure the spouse who took the money to pay the tithing gets to "save face" is not the issue.

> Now there's a direct, grown-up approach! Not.

If the OP wants to preserve the relationship, and the tithe-paying spouse is like most humans, the tithe-paying spouse is unlikely to change his/her behavior unless the conditions are right.

> If you are suggesting that the spouse just
> "forgot" the agreement about the time they needed
> a temple recommend, you have got to be kidding me.
> The proof you require is in the bank statements.

I do not know, you do not know, and the bank does not know what went on in the spouse's mind. Did s/he misunderstand the agreement, forget about the agreement, or willfully ignore it?

If the OP wants to preserve the relationship, assuming the worst intentions from the start is counterproductive.

> You missed the point of my post which was that
> there are more serious issues here that need to be
> dealt with regarding the apostate being pushed to
> second in importance behind the Mormon church.

Actually, I thought your "second in importance" point was excellent, probably because I understood it. If the spouse is willfully ignoring an agreement that s/he understands and remembers, presumably the importance of preserving the relationship is now much lower, and your suggestion is right on the mark.

> Making sure the spouse who took the money to pay
> the tithing gets to "save face" is not the issue.

You and I disagree in our confidence that the spouse is acting deceitfully. I do not know the workings of his/her mind.

Thanks. As I posted above my wishes seemed to be honored for some time this year but in the last few months that all got thrown out the window.

The timing of my spouse getting their Temple recommend re-upped with the bishop seems to coincide with the payments being started again (give or take a few weeks, I'm not sure cause I don't remember the exact day they went).

Church ALWAYS comes before home and family, including spousal preferences.

Surely you know this, having been a member? Tithing comes before ALL else. It is one of the upmost commandments for a TR holder.

She prob'ly believes by paying tithes on both your monies, that you are both going to receive the blessings temporally and spiritually.

I'd give her or him the benefit of the doubt as to hers/his intentions.

It still is a deceptive ploy, because it's done without your consent or authorization.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 11:12AM by Amyjo.

Yeah I know. It bothers the hell out of me though and the sneakiness sure as hell is bothersome.

If I find out that the bishop coerced my spouse into doing so behind my back there will some very choice things said to said bishop.

I used to pay my tithes faithfully as a non-TR holder. Never had a desire to take out my endowments, and both my ex-husbands were Catholic. Getting married in the temple didn't factor into my decision making (and happily so!)

My tithes however when I was LDS, were non-negotiable. I remember as a struggling young mother and going through my divorce, I still tithed when I could least afford to.

Was I blessed because of it? Maybe perhaps.

If you count the time the ATM machine broke on a weekend and literally spewed $20 bills out at me (all I'd wanted was $40.) It felt like manna falling from the heavens, I swear to God!

The bank was closed, there was no way I could return it that day. The bank figured out it had a broken machine the following week, but meanwhile it lent me a good $140 or more of twenty dollar bills.

:))

If the blessings of tithing include easy access to steal from others, please don't sign me up.

Your spouse may be concerned about tithing only on his or her income and possibly being denied a temple recommend. This may be an area of concern that you will want to address. Perhaps your spouse is unaware that most bishops will only hold them accountable for their own income.

The church doesn't need the money. Single moms need the money. Ask your wife which strip club she prefers you go to.

Simply ask your wife about it and then proceed from there.Would like to think she will say yes, I've increased the amount to the church and say why she did this. Let her have her say and then tell your feelings and that the money you earn will not go to the church and that you are watching the account and will get a separate one if this happens next month.

Tell her you love her and care for her and respect her decision to be a Mormon but that you are not and will not give your money to them. If this came about because of her temple interview and something the bishop told her ( clarify this with her ) then go talk to her bishop / SP. Find something said by a general authority / "prophet" about a believing spouse not required to pay tithing on unbelieving spouses income.

Your wife just betrayed you for the church.
I have zero doubt she was pressured into doing this, but all that does is more clearly demonstrate that the church doesn't give a crap about marriages, honesty, trust, and families -- it's all about the money.

Such a destructive cult.

Make sure that your spouse does not also calculate what it being paid the TSCC on the basis of the total family income. He/she could be regularly doing this even is he/she does not take tithing directly from your account. You should make your spouse disclose the tithing for the year to date.

It's being paid out of bank account(s) and the money moving from checking to savings is occurring in the same day my paychecks get auto-deposited.

No payments are coming to the bank account from the paypal account where she is mostly paid from. Looking at the donations on the church site (since I'm still technically a member of record) and all donations came from the joint bank account in particular the savings account in question.

The trail is there and I'm hurting big time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 05:02PM by goodeye.

That the money comes from a joint account should not necessarily be an issue. The question should be what percentage of the income is paid in tithing: 10% of your spouse's income or 10% of the combined income. Because your spouse's income and business expenses are from the other account, there are business and tax reasons not to pay from that account. Just make sure that tithing is only paid on the amount of your spouse's income.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 03:57PM by rhgc.

I totally agree and it would be odd for payments to come from that account to the church directly. The problem is no money is being transferred to the bank account from the paypal (their direct earnings from the business). Even if there was the trail would be there for that and it's not.

Odd definitely. The real measure is, again, the total being tithed. If your spouse is tithing on the total family income, it is especially bad. BTW, in the prior year was the tithing paid from your account? If yes, it should be very simple to make sure that this year it is lower by the amount of your income times the rate of tithe (presumably 10 percent)

You have every right to be hurt and I completely understand why you are. I would be too. I'm sorry. That was not a nice thing for your spouse to do.

It seems to me that spouse has to know they would eventually get caught. All of this would come to light at tax time. That is unless she wasn't going to claim that deduction, which I can't imagine.

It's called "financial infidelity."

Yep...and it's very serious. I would approach your spouse and speak openly about feeling betrayed. Your spouse is going behind your back and putting your future security at risk by funneling money to a cult. I agree with godtoldmetorun...let your spouse know that divorce is on the table if the deceit continues...and be clear that you want that money back before another dime goes to TSCC.

The problem is your spouse will never be in the wrong because your spouse is only obeying Heavenly Father's will.

Good luck with your discussion because spouse will consider no argument can trump obeying Heavenly Father and building His Kingdom. Heavenly Father needs money badly and anyone who doesn't give it to him is WRONG.

This might sound extreme, compared to other comments...but if you set boundaries on money that YOU earn, and the spouse is willfully ignoring those boundaries...not to provide money for the home or family, but to funnel money they did NOT EARN to an institution that goes against your values...and is being deceptive about it...

Then, my friend, it might be time to broach a conversation about divorce.

You do NOT mess with another person's earnings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 12:43PM by godtoldmetorun.

Tough subject. I was the Tbm and then I was the true believing Christian, also the sahm and we agreed not to pay tithing, for a LONG time, but I always felt guilty about not paying. When I was asked about my doh not coming to church with me, it always came back to some form of, "are you doing everything?" Like if I paid tithing on his income, somehow he would want to come to church with me.
He did agree to try out tithing for 3 months one time( a non lds church, btw) we got in so many fights that I went to the preacher and told them it wasn't working out and I would no longer be paying tithing to them. The very next service was about the importance of paying tithing, no matter what, even if it was your husbands money and that God would only bless you if you paid in full.
That didn't work for me any longer and that is when I started questioning formal religions.
She is most likely getting a ton of grief about not paying what they consider a "full" tithing. With promises of you coming back into the fold if she is faithful and threats of your eternal damnation if she does not do this.
I am not saying what she did is right, not at all, but if she is still tbm, her reasoning will be that if this little act of dishonesty will save your eternal soul, it is worth the sacrifice to her. Sucks. Sucks for you and sucks for her. I would suggest that you go with her to talk to the bishop, so she is not told that she is in charge of your salvation( you know, the part in the Bible about the believing spouse and the unbelieving spouse, yep, it worked on me for years and I thought I was never good enough because my spouse never joined the church) go with her so YOU can control the conversation.
Also, did you know that the Catholic Church doesn't do tithing? They believe that it was done away with in the fulfillment of the law, interesting. They still do offerings though.
I just wanted to give a little perspective from what she might be dealing with now too.

No, Catholics don't do tithing, and most mainstream Christians don't do it. They contribute an amount that they are comfortable with. I saw one study that said the average church donation per family in the U.S. is 2.6% of income, and in my experience that is about right.

Tithing is a Levitical law implemented to support the Levite priest-class because they couldn't own property. Like everything else in life it got bastardized and LDS Inc. found it useful for both control and a way to find their empire building.

If Christ did away with the Law of Moses, that includes compulsory tithes.

Jigs up. This will continue to fester and grow (for both of you) until you lance it and let it drain. IMHO The sooner you address this with her the better.

A bit of unsolicited advice:

My father was a lawyer who handled a LOT of divorces. The
number-one factor he noticed was that one spouse complained that
the other spouse was spending THEIR money.

No matter who "earns" the money it should be community property
of the marriage. In many states this is legally how it is.

A respectful and equitable arrangement would be that your wife
pays tithing on 1/2 the family income. This may cost a bit more
than separating it to "my money" and "her money" and having her
pay tithing on "her money," but it will make the marriage more
of a marriage.

I understand and appreciate that. And we share the money as it were it's not "mine" or "theirs". However, after moving forward in my disbelief last year I didn't say anything until the new year. I figured start of a new year, start of new beginnings. I calmly and politely made it clear that money I earned I did not want going to an organization I didn't believe in. We came to an agreement that my wishes would be addressed.

It also smells of issues where its starting to look like the church got in the way too. If you see what I posted above this started back up again around the same time my spouse started paying tithing to the church was when they went to go get their temple recommend reviewed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 06:44PM by goodeye.

goodeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I calmly and politely made it clear
> that money I earned I did not want going to an
> organization I didn't believe in. We came to an
> agreement that my wishes would be addressed.

This looks to me like a "my money" situation where "the money I
earn" is different than "the money she earns." This helps
create a distance within the marriage.

She has certain religious beliefs. So do you. You being OK
with her paying tithing on 1/2 the family income seems like a
very respectful way of acknowledging that the importance of her
beliefs to her matters to you. Note that this is different
from acknowledging that her beliefs are important (or true) to
anyone other than her. If you do not fight her on how SHE
practices her religious beliefs then you are in a very good
position to ask for respect for deal with yours.

People are more important than money, and your wife is one of
the most important people in your life. Saying, en effect,
"Honey, I really hate the LDS Church, however I love you more
than I hate the Church so I will be OK with you paying tithing
on half the family income, because I know it means a lot to
you," seems like a marriage strengthener to me.

The alternative seems to be some variation on, "even though
half the income is yours because we are marriage equals, I
forbid you to pay tithing on the part that comes from my job."
This sets up a master-slave relationship. In such
relationships it is usual for the slave to do things behind the
master's back. Which is just what seems to be happening
according to your original post.

"We came to an agreement" doesn't mean anything if the
agreement is not kept by both parties. If she is reneging
behind your back then it's more of "she pretended to agree
rather than deal with me on it." You need a real agreement
both of you are satisfied with--one that will not harm
communication in the marriage; one that will not turn it into
an adversarial arrangement.

I respectfully disagree. While the money is considered community property, there is no reason the spouse can't pay tithing on their income alone. None. If it's important to the spouse, they budget for it with their own income. Community income goes toward community bills. My spouse, who is a tbm, would never use any of my earned income to pay tithing. We've discussed it and he told me that tithing, when paid, would be form his income alone. I would feel so violated if my earned income went to a cult.

+1

Also I would like to add, I was even more not wanting the church getting anything I made when I asked that my request be honored that money I made didn't go to the church.

This was because financially things were tight here and there for us. However, I ended up getting a significant raise a couple months later (Won't put percentages down but it was shocking). I was happy thinking "see I don't pay and things worked out"

A couple months after that is when this started too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2016 06:58PM by goodeye.

I read rather quickly. "She" is paying tithing with what you earn and not contributing any of the money she is earning?

If so, that just makes it all that much worse. I would feel extremely betrayed.

This is why I don't remarry. This is why I will never share finances with someone else again. I did just fine as a single woman up until age 27, had a great job, earned more than my future husband. Got married and he left and all hell broke loose. He seemed to think everything we did prior to his leaving including producing children was my responsibility. NEVER AGAIN. My only focus now is what my kids end up with when I die.

You are correct. The agreement was that my spouse would pay from what they earn. They use money from that all the time for groceries and their personal earnings have been "shared" for lack of better words between us both as has the money I earned.

However, I made it abundantly clear in January and again in June when we had an argument (soon after my big raise I had gotten) that money I earned would not be used to pay the LDS tithing. No money is being transferred from their account to the joint bank checking account and then being moved to the savings account that tithing payments are coming out of. If so I couldn't argue and I wouldn't even think my spouse was doing this cause the "money trail" would show otherwise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 10:03AM by goodeye.

> However, I made it abundantly clear in January and
> again in June when we had an argument (soon after
> my big raise I had gotten) that money I earned
> would not be used to pay the LDS tithing.

If that's the case, and your spouse said enough to reveal that s/he understood your prior conversations, then what you've reported really does suggest s/he has made you secondary to the church.

I'm so sorry.

Simple. Open a new account. Don't authorize electronic access to your spouse. Don't authorize a debt card. Give your spouse a checkbook that requires two signatures.

Trust me. This will be, unfortunately, the beginning of the end. She will accuse you of not trusting her. No matter that she broke your trust.

Or, you could just let it go...money, trust and sex are cornerstones.

Part of me want's to "let it go" it's just easier than having another argument as other things seemed to be going so well, but then it's like "Wait, there is an actual betrayal going on here"

I'm certainly torn up inside on to handle this. Some moments I'm like forget it, live and let live other moments I'm freaking livid.

Alright I am playing devils advocate here. First I am sorry this is happening to you. Temple recommends get renewed every 2 years at least that was the case before I left a couple of years ago. Maybe he/she your spouse will only pay till he/she has his/her recommend renewed. That would mean every 2 years you are fighting an uphill battle and the rest of the 2 years is smooth sailing till his/ her temple recommend needs to be renewed again.
I personally now a few women who do not pay tithing and still get their TR renewed because they say that their husband is against it and it does not change their worthiness to attend the house of the lord. LDS.Inc is being disrespectful with their entrees fee of the house of secret handshakes. Now I am curious what is actually says about in in their priesthood leadership manuals. I will go over to wiki leaks and look for a bit. A friend of mine was working in the nursery and they told her she needed to pay for the snacks out of her pocket. Well she read the manual and it said that nursery snacks are paid by the church as to not burden the families she got $90 reimbursed :)

Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
Do you live the law of chastity?
Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
Are you a full-tithe payer? Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
If you have previously received your temple endowment: Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

I would have a talk with her first and bring up your agreement, say what you saw and ask her what happened. Give her a chance to explain.

Her reaction will inform you what you need to do next and how to go about it.

I would have to disagree about material amounts being spent on a non-necessities without the agreement of the other spouse.

OP was denied a voice in the disbursememt of disposable income, even if the split was "down the middle."

If OP tried to take trips to Vegas under the guise of business, it would be considered spending "joint funds" without consideration.

Recompense would be for tithing spouse to return embezzled funds to "disposable income." As long as we're being all "fair" and "joint" 'n stuff.

Total, less necessities / 2. Go back and figure out what portion of embezzler's allowance should be used to rebuild OP's "trust," so to speak.

My sister and he husband live in a community property state. They both earn money. He earns a bit more, but not way more. They don't disagree about tithing, as they're both TBMs, but they have had a hard time agreeing about how other money is spent or saved.

They worked out a budget with separate checking accounts.For legal reasons, they each chose to put the other's names on their own checking accounts, but it's clear what belongs to whom, and it is obvious if one writes a check on the other's account. There are times when they do this with consent.

Because my sister's husband earns about 60% of their money (he's a dentist), he pays 60% of their household bills, while my sister, who owns a small chain of cosmetology salons, pays 40%. Because they agree to tithe, they each tithe on their own earnings. In theory, all of the money together is their own, but this seems to have to put an end a lot of arguments in their household. Tithing wasn't their bone of contention. For them, it was electronic and automotive toys for him and what most would consider ridiculously expensive designer clothing for their daughters and for my sister. My brother-in-law contributes a set sum each month to my sister's and the kids' clothing because they would have to be attired in some fashion; he just doesn't agree with my sister that it should cost as much as it does. Now they each know what they have to spend, and how much they need to save, and everyone seems happy.

Perhaps a financial arrangement of this sort would work out for you and your spouse. Meanwhile, enjoy the tax break you'll get on the most recent tithing.

For the record, I think my sister and her husband are both idiots in regard to how they spend their money. My wife and I spend probably 1/5 of what they do annually, not even counting the tithing we save, although they do have six children to our two. Still, I would have hated to see two basically good if slightly misguided people divorce and break up a home of six children over money when there is plenty to go around as long as they function as mature adults.

Looking a my sister's and brother-in-law's situation probably makes your own spouse seem like a real gem. Perhaps a similar financial arrangement would work out for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2016 04:15AM by scmd.

I would sit her down and tell her that she has betrayed your trust and now she is going to have to earn it back again.

Let her know that is not okay.

Please report back on what transpired!

Too bad the TSCC couldn't be found in possession of stolen funds--half of it, anyway.

Tell your spouse that maybe you'll bear your testimony about the whole thing and see what the ward thinks.

:)

Thanks all for the comments so far it has been very helpful!

My plan was to discuss it when I got off work on Saturday. Unfortunately though, mid day I got word that a good friend of mine had lost their battle with cancer. What sucks is this is the 3rd person in 30 days that I have been close to that has lost their battle to cancer.

So Saturday totally sucked, My plan is this next weekend. In the meantime it gives me a couple more days of combing through bank records to make sure I'm 100% correct on this.

I'd call a lawyer and demand my money back, seeing LDS is taking your money WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION.

I'm so sorry for your losses.

Good luck with your spouse, I hope things will work out.

Be gentle and tread carefully with your wife while setting firm guidelines to reinforce your needs/requirements. Remember most of us were TBM at some point in our lives which is why we are now on RECOVERY from Mormonism.