I've been a member all my life. The last 18 months have been a real struggle. This latest episode started in January 2015, when my wife was called as the ward YW president. Normally that would be a demanding calling, but doable for most people. However, unbeknownst to the Bishopric, she has suffered from bipolar for about 15 years. To be fair, she had it fairly well under control the whole time we had lived in the ward, which was about 5 years. But what they didn't' know was right before we had moved into the ward, she had a major episode with psychosis, and had spent two weeks in a psychiatric hospital. Her delusions back then were very religious in nature, and got to the point where she believed she was an incarnate of the Savior to save her family and then the world. She was planning to kill herself to emulate his death and atonement. It was terrifying. But over the course of a year or so, she more or less got over it, struggling mostly with less-visible depression over the next few years.

Anyway, the Bishopric called us in last year, and in unity said how they had felt a strong impression that she was the one at this time to lead the YW. Because of her history, I was concerned, but withheld my concern, because after all they had all felt such a strong impression. She was nervous and overwhelmed but said yes. So she dove right in.

For the first few months she did pretty well, but had episodes of doubt. Then around Mother’s Day, I started to see some cracks in her psyche. At first, it was relatively minor, such as obsessing about how certain girls were fitting in, and spending a lot of time writing notes and reaching out to them. More than was probably healthy, as it was to the detriment of our own family. Then over Memorial Day we went as a guest to a ward. During one talk she started crying intensely and afterward said the woman has been inspired to speak directly to her. I don’t even remember the topic. But alarm bells went up because one of her previous delusions was to receive hidden spiritual messages in talks, music, movies etc.

Well shortly after that she went to Youth Conference. It was a tremendous stress for her to be one of the key leaders, and she basically didn’t sleep for 3 nights. That is about the worst thing someone with bipolar can do. She began acting strangely at the conference and saying somewhat inappropriate things. By the time she got home, she was slipping back into a psychosis.
The worst was at night, when she would sense angels of destruction, and even Satan himself in the house. She wouldn’t sleep. She started asking me multiple times per day for priesthood blessings. I didn’t really want to give her blessings, but often gave in, because she would temporarily calm down. Obviously by this point I knew she was in a crisis, but she didn’t want to go to a hospital. She also started obsessively writing notes and contacting all the young women in the ward. After my blessings didn’t work she called a member of the Bishopric over. Now he knew something was going on, but had no idea of the extent. He said it was Satan trying cause doubts and keep her from achieving her calling. He then gave her a blessing that she would be able to successfully fulfill her calling. I wanted to yell at him that it was much more than that, but didn’t.

Well anyway, that night she got to the point where she alternated between being psychotic and threatening to kill herself because of all the "buffetings of Satan". At that point, I took her to the ER, and she was subsequently admitted to a psychiatric hospital, where she spent a month.

Of course at this point, the Bishopric recognized there was no way she could continue on, so they released her. But that was just the start of the fallout. Of course, as she came down from her mania, she became horrified at the situation and what she had done. She was humiliated. She then fell into a deep depression, that has continued to varying degrees even to today, over a year and a half later. Our marriage has suffered greatly, as she looks to me to fill the emptiness she feels inside, and I can’t do it. We have two preschool age kids who don’t always get the care they deserve because there are days when she has no motivation to do anything besides the minimum. Then my older daughter, who was in YW, has had to deal with the effects as well. I can only imagine how embarrassing and difficult it was for her. Our 12 year old son, on the surface hasn’t suffered as much, but I know it’s hard for him, because he sees a mom who is burnt out and not always engaged in his life. I worry he keeps all his feelings bottled up.

Looking back, I’m angry at the pressure to say yes, because it’s not good to ever turn down a calling in the Church. Would this episode have happened without her taking on a calling that was beyond her capacity? Maybe, but this sure didn't help. In no way was this an inspired calling as the bishopric made it out to be. And of course that’s only one of the many pressures in LDS culture. We got married when I was 23 and she was only 20. Now, 18 years later, there is no way I was ready to make such a decision at that age. I won’t say it’s been a complete mistake, but I rushed in, because that’s what returned missionaries do. There were warning signs of her bipolar, even before an official diagnosis 3 years into our marriage.
After her first major psychiatric episode, I thought we should stop with two kids. But after a few years of relative stability she wanted more. Her father also gave her a blessing, in which he saw us having two more kids -- a boy and a girl. I was upset and fought it a long time, because I didn’t think it was his place, and I was spooked from her first major breakdown. But I eventually gave in, and we actually did have another boy and another girl. I love them and wouldn’t want them out of my life, but looking things objectively, it is hard to justify someone with her history having more kids. Ultimately, I believe having 2 more young kids at the same time she was called to YW was just too much. Again the culture and pressure to have lots of kids nudged me to make decisions against my better judgement.

Even today the culture is affecting her negatively. Her parents are strongly opposed to the "worldy" psychiatrists she sees and the medication she takes. They say it's an indication of a lack of faith in priesthood blessings, as if that's all she needs. They consider me somewhat of a heretic because I insist she continues to get such treatment.

I’m sure that for many people, the LDS culture hasn’t affected them with so many challenges. And to be fair, there are people outside of the Church who struggle with these kinds of issues (mental stability, family and social pressures). But as I look back, just see so many times where the Church and its pressures have exacerbated the problems rather than helping.

I exist now in this state of ambivalence. Not going to Church would cause even more conflict. But I don’t see any inspiration in how our bishopric handled this. If they, though so well-intentioned, were completely off-base, what does that say about the entire Church hierarchy? There have been other incidents in my life where promised blessings have not even come close to being realized. Even though my wife was humiliated and often hates going to Church because of her embarrassment, it is so ingrained she has not ever considered not going. I don’t enjoy it, but our family has been through so much in the last year and a half, I don’t even want to rock the boat with not going. At this point it would be just another crisis and loss of consistency for the kids. So anyway, that’s my story and where I am today. I’m not sure what the future holds, but our lives have definitely not been turning out according to the cookie-cutter image of the happy Mormon family, and the multitude of promised blessings certainly haven’t materialized.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2016 08:02AM by paulk.

I'm sorry that you and your family are suffering - have suffered - so much due to this brain illness.

I hear you, and you are so correct on many levels.

A bi-polar mind can be such a delicate balancing act that it is difficult to impossible for loved ones to know what is right for the patient. It becomes instinctive for those most close to want to protect that delicate mind from stress, but the patient must let us help. So often, they won't. The stigma of mental illness urges them to pretend to be as functional as others, even when we try to gently steer them to healthier choices. They want to be "normal."

You are correct that the unique pressures of this religion's belief system has not helped, that a desire to treat it with blessings and prayer alone is dangerously misguided, and that parents guilting a bi-polar woman into producing more children was utterly selfish and against her best interests.

You and she were not just "pressured," you were indoctrinated, probably from birth. That your birth families, marriage, social and possibly employment networks, your home life, children and eternal spirits are simultaneously "at risk" if you don't follow "the rules" is more than "pressure." Hang out here, and you'll find out why most of us refer to it as a cult. It hits most every checkmark to qualify. Knowledge is empowerment, and truth is quite useful.

You may be able to look back now and see red flags, but I don't think that any of you could have really understood the warning signs at the time. Most patients are not diagnosed until their first hospitalization, and early, milder symptoms are easily misunderstood as "being a teenager." In other words, no matter her circumstance, no matter who she married, the illness would have advanced in a predictable fashion, and the first opportunity of a correct diagnosis would have occurred for her at 23.

You are also correct that pregnancy is high risk for bi-polar women. Going off of meds for a pregnancy, plus the pregnancy itself, is too much to remain chemically stable for many. It requires intensive medical supervision.

I'd like to offer this: hospitalizations also become necessary when patients are in the depressive end of bi-polar. You are drained, and she sounds seriously depressed. A single human being is not capable of tending a depressed bi-polar person; it takes a team, meds, counseling and a controlled environment. Her needs are not being met, but only because no one person can meet them, not because she "needs" you particularly to meet them.

From your post, it reads as if she has only been hospitalized to bring mania under control. It's can be more difficult to convince her to go if not manic, but she may also welcome the idea that her only "job" will be to cooperate with the medical care, to try to help her brain recover.

You also need relief. I'm almost sure that your needs have been last on the list for a very long time. There is help available for family members of bi-polar people, including children.

Please try to get your wife to the hospital, you and your children some "free" time away from the stress of illness, and yourself - time to recoup some joy. Family might tend the children while you get lost for awhile.

Dear sir, I'll be thinking of you and yours, and sending good and healthy thoughts your way.

Thanks, for the responses. I've been hesitant to post this anywhere. I don't feel like I can post this on a pro-LDS forum, because I don't feel like having doubts about the infallibility of callings would be received well. Plus I don't want a bunch of apologist spin that maybe it was just a challenge given for ultimate blessings. So thanks again.

My God. Having been in a bishopric and faced with bipolar members and their difficulties I became tense just reading this post. Am a recently retired neonatologist and the years have dealt with bipolar mothers and fathers as parents of tiny ones in an NICU. In short, some experiences maybe everyone here have not seen.

Like another above I am SO IMPRESSED with your commitment. Unfortunately I am impressed with the illness. You haven't mentioned other common woes of the mania side- money management, hyper-sensuality and legal entanglements. Hope you never see them.

The depressive side is just as wicked. As the person ages the down sides last longer. They tend to be quieter externally but often bring internal family functions to prolonged halts.

There are trigger points. And damn it to hell a calling like YW leader is just such a typical trigger especially if she is trending "up". No logic or advice seemed sought on this one and there is no ample evidence. Anything requiring "inspiration" was and is a major mistake.I counseled my bishops and was even called in to counsel stake leaders on this illness. In our ward we gave assignments to two members based on their current mood and evidence of ongoing medication compliance. As critical the calling timing was so was the release. A member on a downside getting release just never understood. All the callings were task oriented- library, cleaning- yes cleaning and even grounds care. Yes we broke a few rules. Powerful impression by your sanctimonious three- BS if ever heard. They just needed it filled.

Many above have offered really great advice. One new wrinkle. There is often a carefully concealed family history of this illness. Also concealed dealings with it before you came along. Your in laws may not be nor have been facing this for quite a while. The " fertility blessing " comes to mind.

By now you know certain trigger points historically. Church is one. Her family as enablers as well. Begin to quietly and judiciously cleanse these points from your family's life. Moving is not an option you should consider. That is a major trigger and at this point your insurance benefits and physicians who know her are essential.

Blessings to you in your life our RFM friend.....

Gatorman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2016 09:44AM by gatorman.

You're the one holding up the family right now.

It sounds like you've done everything within your power to alleviate the problems the calling was causing your wife's bi-polar to go into paranoia. Trying to walk a fine line so not to draw attention to yourselves at church would be daunting IMO, because of her illness and hospitalization.

If the church cannot be there to support you and your wife in your distress with her illness, what good is it honestly doing either one of you? Besides contributing to her manic moods (that could happen without the church influence at all, but it isn't helping the situation either.) You need support, not fear of condemnation.

As supportive as her family tries to be, the onus falls back on you and the medical community to get her the intervention she needs right now. Priesthood blessings aside, she still needs to be in ongoing treatment and therapy if she's going to battle her demons.

Also be aware that your children are at greater risk of developing bi-polar disorder. They're still young. Typically it doesn't start to manifest until the late teens or early adulthood. That's something you probably already know, but if it happens hopefully you'll be better able to cope with any of your children who may develop that later.

You have received some wonderful advice above. My feeling as a total non-expert is that your wife should be exempt from callings altogether. With four children she has more than enough on her plate. I would also see if you all can take some time off from church as a family, perhaps one weekend a month.

You will need to be your wife's strongest advocate because no one knows her as well as you do, or cares as much about her mental health. Don't be afraid to step in and say, "No," when church leaders make inappropriate demands, or be afraid to take a stand on her behalf.

One thing that I think you need to consider is that your wife's ongoing depression may have an impact on your kids. Jawbone had a good point that your wife may require another hospitalization or additional treatment. And your kids may need some time in a non-depressed environment, perhaps with a loving aunt or uncle.

When my father was dying, and even after his death, caring neighbors and family friends would sometimes take me in for a few days of normalcy with their families, and it made a world of difference to me. If kids are around depressed people all the time then that is all that they know. That is their only reality. That is their "normal." Kids need models for a happy family life. Just something to consider.

Good luck. We wish you well.

I might be wrong (nevermo here), but as a priesthood holder, can't you say no to her callings?

I know that "you don't say no to a calling", but, yeah, maybe you do.

YOu are in my thoughts.

-Sunny

I echo the support from my fellow posters. I grew up with a bipolar alcoholic parent and can appreciate some of what you're going through.

Wherever you're at with Mormonism, the Board is here to help. If you feel it's a support to you, please post.

Famiky issues are complex and nuanced, please consider professional counseling separate from LDS Social Services. Church leaders are typically NOT trained mental health care professionals and although they may mean well, they can complicate the situation.

Very best wishes, The Boner.

Yes, I appreciate the advice. Right now, I think the bishopric recognizes her limitations. Her calling is limited to sending out birthday cards to the relief society sisters. If they ever try to give anything substantial I will push back.

The hard part of the guilt culture will be for her to say no, but I will insist on it.

I wonder all the time about the best course of action in terms of what to do about another hospitalization. For now, we are in the mode of multiple therapy and psychiatrist visits every month.

We do take breaks from Church, pretty much every time we travel. I've had a weekend trip in June and July and one next month. What's odd (or not) is it's always a relief for her to not have the routine and burden of expectations and bad memories. Like I said, it's so ingrained, that not going isn't an option for her. I myself attend the first hour and then sort of hang out in the foyers or surf the internet as much as possible the rest of the time. This isn't a time to rock the boat with another big change, but I do look out for things that are unreasonable for her.

90% of people there seem absorbed with their own lives. That is good and bad because they don't focus on what happened, but sometimes she feels cast aside now that she no longer has a prominent role. Her visiting teacher actually sincerely seems to care about how she's doing though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2016 08:08PM by paulk.

My wife and kids are TBM, I understand. As much as possible, try to leave religion and the church out of the mix. You sound like a very supportive spouse.

To say that I, too, an impressed with your commitment to your wife and your family, would be a huge understatement.

I am also nevermo but you have received some good advice here, in my opinion. I hope you take what you can use. Best wishes to you and your family.

"and in unity said how they had felt a strong impression that she was the one at this time to lead the YW… after all they had all felt such a strong impression… it's not good to ever turn down a calling in the Church."

And this is what happens in an organization that fosters the belief that every single time a priesthood leader has a random thought or idea or brain fart pop into his head, that it's nothing less than divine inspiration.


"He said it was Satan trying cause doubts and keep her from achieving her calling… at this point, the Bishopric recognized there was no way she could continue on, so they released her."

Did they ever admit they made a mistake by issuing the calling in the first place? And have you noticed how *dependent on Satan* the church is? Without a Satan to micro-manage everyone's life and blame for everything, the church would actually have to take some responsibility.


"I don’t see any inspiration in how our bishopric handled this. If they, though so well-intentioned, were completely off-base, what does that say about the entire Church hierarchy?"

What does it say, indeed.


"our lives have definitely not been turning out according to the cookie-cutter image of the happy Mormon family, and the multitude of promised blessings certainly haven't materialized."

The church will say, of course, that you simply haven't waited long enough; or that your faith is too weak or being tested; or that the blessings will come in the next life; or that we don't know god's ways; or, or, or. It's always you, never the oh-so-perfect church.


We all hope your lives turn around for the better, whether you stay or leave the cult. But the oppressive Mormon environment will do you no favors.

No, they never said it was a mistake. I never pressed them on it. But I would imagine the response would have been along the lines of "she accomplished what she was supposed to accomplish during her short time as YW president."

I don't know how they resolve the dissonance between what's inspired vs the actual outcome.

My heart goes out to you. You seem like a very good man and make me think of my dad. My dad was the rock that held our family (and my mom) together throughout my childhood.

My mom was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia when I was a small child (I was one of four kids), and she struggled with it for her adult life until she finally succeeded in taking her own life at 57.

Religion and any kind of stress were big triggers for my mom. My dad and our extended family helped us to maintain a semblance of normalcy in the midst of intermittent chaos.

Pray for strength and wisdom for yourself. Trust yourself as the person who knows and understands your wife best. Do not look for special wisdom from untrained lay clergy who may have an inflated idea of their ability to know what is best for everyone else!

If I can give some advice:

Help your kids to understand the nature of their mom's illness as is appropriate for their age. This will arm them against people and other kids at church or school who may make ignorant comments. Help them understand the brain science that is starting to inform our ideas about mental illnesses.

Keep everything church-related as innocuous and stress-free as possible. Know that the church guys have no special inspiration about your wife and what is good for her. You and her doctor are the ones who have the best idea. Play the p-holder card and make sure they know that she is your wife, that she is in fragile health, and that above all, you know best. You will make all decisions related to her and your children.

In addition,if I were you, I would tell them that you will kick the crap out of any person who ever utters the word "Satan" to your wife (or kids)!

Hoping for the best for all of you. Courage!

Perhaps you should stop walking on eggshells.

Your wife isn't taking care of the kids like she would want because of her condition. She doesn't need additional tasks, period.

I would be matter of fact with her that you don't think the Mormon Church is a positive force in her life or yours.

If you don't want to attend, don't attend. She can do so if she wants. By your not going, you may be showing her that there are other possibilities in life.

The in laws are both your enemy and more importantly her enemy. You are pretty clear that they, like the mormon church, pressure your family to do things that benefit them (more kids, difficult callings, etc) at your family's expense.

I think in some cases this could be true, but it also could backfire since she seems so ingrained. Maybe it would stress her out more? I'd say be careful with any sudden big changes or upheavals. I'm just going by my own experiences with anxiety, depression, and being so ingrained in a cultish group.

Do you ever hear about what her therapist suggests, or can you converse with her doctors? What do they think would help her?

The sending-birthday-cards calling is a giant pain in the butt. She will end up shopping for cards, paying for postage, etc., and trying to make sense of the goof-ball lists they give her. It's a huge time sucking bunch of nonsense.

Tell them NO!!!

It's just a way for TSCC to verify addresses.

I am so sorry your family is facing such difficulty. Mental illness is not easy for anyone - the sufferer or the loved ones. I am sorry the church's demands exacerbated the problem.

The other advice I would give you is to seek a second opinion for her diagnosis. (I'm only a psych student - so take it with a grain of salt if you want). But as you described the symptoms of her psychotic episodes, they practically yelled textbook schizophrenia to me - instead of bipolar disorder. She doesn't show the classic symptoms of manic episodes- and delusions/ hearing voices, reading spiritual or hidden messages only she can see, and having delusions of grandeur like bring the savior are all hallmarks of the schizophrenia spectrum.

I would highly recommend getting another evaluation. If she's on meds for bipolar and may be schizophrenic instead, she may benefit from the different medication.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/manic-episode/

"Grandiose delusions are common (e.g., having a special relationship to God or to some public figure from the political, religious, or entertainment world)."

Thanks for the replies. As for the diagnosis, she's had the diagnosis confirmed by a few different docs. During a manic phase, a person with Type I bi-polar will frequently have delusions and psychotic features. One of the main differences from schizophrenia, as I understand it, is that the mania is accompanied by a lot of energy (thus the name) and is episodic. She can go for several years between episodes, with a lot of depression occurring in the between times. In my opinion, mental illnesses are often a continuum and don't fit neatly into boxes.

As for confronting her right now about changing church activity, In a normal situation it's definitely advisable to be upfront. But when someone is struggling to think rationally and clearly, due to chemical reasons, they really can't process information and change like most other people. And to be honest, there are tons of family and social pressures that you all have had to deal with. I'm sort of exhausted from what we've gone through and am not sure I want to open the can of worms at this point. I've started discussing things with my brother, who left the Church about 5 years ago, though.

That said, sometimes she says she wants to move to attend another ward, because of the feelings that arise when attending this one. I've said we can stay home on those days, which she doesn't want to do (so strange to hate going yet feel compelled to go), or just go to another Ward. One of the reasons we moved last time is she had a less public, but still known episode and wanted to escape the stigma. I don't think we should move every time this happens, just to avoid going to a particular ward. Especially now that our kids are older and would just be another trauma for them.

As for callings, yes it's feel-good busywork. She actually pre-writes all the cards about every six months so it's a couple hours of work a year. I was my son's 11-year-old scout leader. When he advanced, they kept me in for about 6 months. Finally I told them that without my son, I wasn't really invested in doing that work. So now I'm in charge of printing the programs every week. That's about the extent of what we are willing to do now, and if they tried to give us something more time-consuming I'd say no, because it's not best for our family.

paulk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In
> my opinion, mental illnesses are often a continuum
> and don't fit neatly into boxes.

Yes, yes, and yes. And it is better to err on the side of caution. However,-and I can't emphasize this strongly enough-those who give the iron-clad advise of what "bi-polar" looks like can, in many instances be very wrong. Don't underestimate the value of counseling and behaviour modification. The pendulum swings both ways and insisting that the only "fix" for the situation is a permanent course of meds is ignoring facts.

Mental illness is illness. Why do so many people still see it as something shameful?

If someone has cancer, we're all sympathetic.
If someone has diabetes, ah, too bad, and then we're careful not to serve them the wrong kind of food.
We learn CPR and First Aid so we can all be ready to help people who are injured or having a heart attack.
In other words, we learn about physical illnesses and we are supportive of people with them and we learn ways to help them.

But if someone has a mental illness, it's all hush-hush, and something that should just be hidden and not talked about. Like it's their fault, and there's nothing that can be done about it except to stay away.

Maybe we could HELP more people with mental illness if we'd all open up more about it, become better informed, realize that there ARE treatments for mental illnesses, and learn how we can be supportive.

paulk, If you haven't already, please contact your local chapter of NAMI (National Alliance of Mental Illness). They are kind, non-judgemental people who can give you additional support and information that will help family members and care-givers of loved ones who carry the burden of mental illness. They have support groups, family classes, literature on coping with mental illness, and very good people who have been where you are.

Mental illness was ignored in my Mormon family with very bad consequences. When the mother isn't properly treated the children will suffer. No amount of priesthood blessings will help with mental disorders. Denial is an equally bad strategy.

NAMI is very helpful. About 7 years ago, after my wife's first hospitalization I attended the family-to-family program, while she attended a support group. It was a good experience.

More recently, I looked up where the support chapters meet, and unfortunately there are meetings in Salt Lake and Provo, each of which is about 20 miles away. Also this time I couldn't find where they had family and patient support group meetings at the same time. I didn't want to commit to another evening away, and burden my wife with that. She did go to two support group sessions herself a few months ago when she was having a phase where she had more energy. She really enjoyed those, but then fell back into depression and felt it wasn't worth it. I'll check again though for times and places since it's been a few months, especially now that I don't have scouts taking up an evening each week.

Also, to my wife's credit she thinks her parents are ridiculous when they tell her not to get medical treatment. We laugh because one recent suggestion from them was that in addition to blessings she take vitamin supplements. Apparently a fellow temple-worker approached my mother-in-law about these supplements because they helped her son. Of course it was an MLM. So MLM supplements suggested by someone in the temple + blessings is somehow better than competent medical treatment + FDA-approved meds.

To the Church's credit, it doesn't teach that proper medical treatment and meds should be avoided. But many extreme members like my in-laws probably interpret such treatments as lacking faith or mental symptoms as the result of sin.

I've been in your shoes. Bipolar wife, called to YW President, psychosis, unsupportive in-laws. I hate to say this, but it is only going to get worse. Wait until you suffer the pain of having one of your children be diagnosed with a mental illness and then the church turn on them and not allow them to serve a mission because of it. You will feel indignity and humiliation like no other.

I finally couldn't do the church anymore. I will never forget the look of tremendous relief on my children's face when I told them I no longer believed in the church. They were so relieved and left the church with me. My wife, filed for divorce because of it and I skipped to the courthouse gleefully putting the agony behind me and leaving with full custody of my children and away from a church and mother that caused them extreme harm. They are all grown now, college graduates with great careers.

I still suffer with guilt. Hate that they don't have a mother in their life. But leaving her and the church and taking them with me was the best thing I have ever done.

Sorry to be so blunt. I sincerely wish you and your children the best. I hope your condescending in-laws will step in to care for their daughter.

Wow, sounds very similar to my situation with your ex-wife. May I ask if it was difficult to get custody of your kids? I hope it doesn't come to that, but the thought of her getting custody scares me to death. There's no way she could handle it long-term, and her history is well-documented. But I know in Utah the courts are so over-the-top in how they favor mothers.

I really hope she regains the stability she's had, but bi-polar tends to get worse with age. That's not a happy prospect for me to consider. But I have to.

If I am understanding what you shared correctly, it sounds like you are dealing with questioning some aspects of Mormonism as well as the pressures of mental health issues with your wife. Just one of them is more than a handful.

Speaking from experience and observation, mental health issues open up a can of worms that is challenging in a much different way than having two broken legs. Everyday, science is working on unlocking the mystery of the brain, but it still is a relatively new journey and a very complex one. As you spoke about, people of all sizes and shapes come out of the woodwork, saying this worked for so and so and have you tried this? They mean well, but they can sure cause migraines and worse! Do place your trust in those trained and schooled who deserve it, standing firm that from you and your wife's research this is what you feel is in her best interest, as well as you and your children's best interest.

I hope you can manage to get help with your household to assist both you and your wife as well as give you some alone time. Do get professional help for yourself if you desire it. Make as much time for family fun time as possible. Do communicate and communicate some more honestly with yourself, your wife and your children. Learn all you can about good communication skills, and while you are at it, learn all you can learn about how powerful the indoctrination is that the cult of Mormonism uses on its members.

Only you can decide, with time, if you are happy in your married and family life. Changes do occur as life moves forward, and I am of the opinion that to remain in a situation where a person is not happy is not in the best interest of anyone.

(((hugs))) from this grandma and keep us posted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2016 05:49PM by presleynfactsrock.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Concern 1a is dealing with her bipolar and trying to make things work with that challenge. That is not easy under any circumstances.

Concern 1b is the enmeshment of religion in many aspects of this illness. From the uninspired calling that was a triggering factor to the inappropriate and harmful recommendations from her parents, to my wife's own unrealistic and dangerous religious delusions (which thankfully are not showing now).

Now I've always been a "good" member my whole life, doing everything that was asked and according to the standard timeline. I always felt a little cognitive dissonance bearing my testimony for example, because I never really felt the extreme burning in the bosom so many people had. But I went up to the stand, because it was probably true and that's what we are "supposed" to do. But the last 18 months have given me a chance to reflect and see that things don't conform to the neat mold that the church claims they will. I probably could have gone on forever the the state of being a "good" member if the crap with her mental health, our marriage, and our family life hadn't hit the fan so abruptly ... again enmeshed with unhealthy religious elements.

Just a thought about the uninspired calling. I think it is something you should bring up with her when the time seems right.

That calling put her over the edge. It was a mistake. It was THEIR mistake and they roped you guys into it with manipulation.

Every person deserves to make decisions about what to do in their own life. When a religious leader comes along with a 'calling' that a person knows is a bad idea, or is even apprehensive about accepting, they should have every right to think it over, and to say NO. But when a leader says it's inspired from God, or whatever, that's just manipulative. It's happened to me, so I guess that's why it bugs me so much.

CLEARLY, that calling was NOT from God. It put your wife in a bad situation, and has cost your family FAR more than it cost the church. Now they can easily just get another YW leader, while your family tries to pick up the pieces and survive. Personally, I think you should deduct any medical expenses from your tithing.

I absolutely think you should talk with your ward leaders and confront them about it. Tell them that they have no business claiming GOD wants someone to take a calling just because THEY feel good about it. Make sure that they know they seriously hurt someone in a fragile mental state, and furthermore, like someone mentioned upthread, they had BETTER NOT mention Satan to her again. They should stop using the manipulation and just ASK people to do a job in the ward, and let people decide.

As for your wife, I think she also needs to recognize that calling was bad for her. She put everything into it, and it almost destroyed her. So either God's an absolute jerk for giving her that job, or the bishopric weren't inspired at all. The point: she shouldn't trust church leaders and she should make choices based on what she thinks is best, rather than relying on unreliable leaders.

I'm telling you it's important to eventually connect the dots for her about the uninspired callings. Maybe not in her current state, but at some point.

I say this because there was a time when I was overwhelmelmed, and I took a couple of 'inspired' callings that weren't good for me, based on my stage of life, my social/spiritual needs, and other factors. Ultimately, the second one (nursery) made me question why I went to church at all. The idea of going to church, dressing up our little kids, struggling to keep them quiet through sacrament (getting nothing out of the meeting), and then spending the rest of the time babysitting seemed beyond pointless. NONE of our family got anything out of church. All this in a new ward where I needed to get to know some adults, was struggling spiritually and couldn't listen to any meetings, and had a nursing infant in a crowded nursery during Respiratory flu virus season, when many people were cautioned to keep babies home from church.

It was clear this wasn't the right situation for me. You betcha it made my faith weaker. And after a few months, I started questioning the church altogether. And when you start asking questions, it's pretty easy to figure out the whole thing is a sham. We left the church within months.

I'm not saying that leaving the church is the end game here. Maybe your wife needs it. But at the very least, she needs to take care of herself and protect herself from those who have no idea what she is dealing with. She needs to take ownership of her life and how she will or won't serve. And she needs to give herself permission to step back from the ward or the church if it's a source of pressure or humiliation for her.

I insisted on a non LDS psychologist to meet with my children, me and my wife independently. After those meetings, it became clear that she had no ability to consider the needs and feelings of anyone but herself, much less children and so the court followed the psychologists recommendation and awarded me full custody.

Just an update. Our bishop called us in on Sunday. He extended a new calling to my wife as Relief Society secretary. It was actually partially motivated by my wife's counselor who called him and said that more social involvement than just birthday card specialist might be good for her.

She is thinking about it, rightly worried about if it will add too much stress to her life. I expressed my concern and said she should feel no obligation to accept it.

But then yesterday she said, "well I probably should accept it." I hate the obligatory guilt aspect of the church. I repeated that her first priority is to herself and she should not feel like she has to do it.

We also discussed the fallout from the YW president fiasco. The bishop tried to be understanding. But one thing he said particularly bugged my wife. He said one important thing is for her to forgive herself. Huh? Afterwards, she asked why she should need to forgive herself for what happened, since it was out of her control.

The bishop is not a jerk, but I feel like the whole bishopric is just sort of bumbling around.

Paul, do you remember that I said above that you will need to advocate for your spouse? Say NO to the bishop and NO to your spouse. You need to stand up for her. From everything you have told us, she is not capable of handling this demanding calling.

You need to be her best friend in this regard. Your bishop and SP do NOT know her anywhere as close to as YOU know her. Explain to them firmly that this calling will NOT be happening because you wife is not able to cope with it.

Ordinarily I would expect a wife to speak for herself, but she is feeling the weight of church obligation, so I would use your priesthood authority card.

JUST SAY NO!...unless you really, really want your wife to have another breakdown.

They are. They need positions filled. I have been there. To be the secretary you have to be at all RS functions. Sunday and weekday. That involves travel, baby sitting and communication with leaders/members that is ongoing. Ponder.....

Gatorman

Paulk, will you please stand on your hind legs and tell the bishop, "Fuck NO! Leave my wife alone!"

You could end this turmoil yourself, and take the burden off her in feeling she "needs to accept their bullshit!"

Stand up for her, goddam it! She can't defend herself from them. Don't you see that???

I know it's bad form to say no to a spouse, but in this situation, I would almost consider it. Think about what happened last time. Think about the religious mania that occurred as a consequence of her accepting that calling. Think about you and your family, and say NO

I agree with the others. It's time to play the priesthood card and say no to the bishop. In order to protect your wife, you have to be willing to be the bad guy.

Explain to her that "The Lord" understands that she would fill this calling if she could, and so she won't be punished; and that since you are the one blocking the door, this is also beyond her control and she should not feel any guilt.

A bishopric, just bumbling around, with no discernment? Who'd have thought?

Paulk, I am so sorry for what your family is going through. From your posts, I can tell you are well informed about your wife's disease. I really hate how these things are covered up in families and treated like a dirty secret. I'm sure you know about the genetic component and that there must be several other people who have, are, or will be suffering.

Just think how much better it would be if her family and society at large, recognized the disease, accepted it and coordinated treatment. I think one of the hardest parts of mental illness is for the sufferer and their family to accept that this is a real thing, that it isn't made up, it isn't something they can "snap out of", and that it doesn't have anything to do with satan.

You are right that the disease appears to be progressive in most cases. However, if she can fully accept that she has a real disease and maintain treatment, her long prognosis is positive. With treatment, in the long term, things can and probably will get better. You have been probably been through the worst part, the part where she and everyone else doesn't want to accept it and treatment is resisted.

You can't imagine how seductive it is for her to listen to those voices in her life, it works on you every day. No one wants to accept that they have a real mental illness. No one likes the side effects of the medication. When these uninformed but well meaning and trusted people in your life tell you things like it might be the devil or maybe this food supplement might work or maybe it was situational and not likely to recur...all those work on you until you eventually stop treatment and start the cycle again.

To me, it is very much like the grieving cycle complete with denial, anger, sadness and finally acceptance. Her family, friends and church people are all somewhere on that cycle with their opinion of her. Once she really accepts it and accepts treatment, her life and yours will go much better.

I'm not sure what to say about the current question of calling as a secretary. Would it help to have her psychiatrist give your Bishop a letter? The doctor would know much better than anyone if she should be put in that situation right now. Maybe if you insist that medical counsel be part of that decision it will help the Bishop to back off?

Eventually she has to learn to say no, her priority is her family not the neighbors. Saying "no" in mormon culture is taboo. The thing that helped me was realizing that every single thing I said "yes" to was also saying "no" to something else. Every yes is a no. Maybe she can just inform that Bishop that her priority right now is her family, he can't really argue with that logic. And if necessary, tell him it was confirmed by the spirit?

Good luck to you, let us know how it goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2016 12:27PM by onendagus.

Unfortunately your wife has got it firmly planted in her head that "doing" equals "worthy." This is what Mormonism teaches-it is the very core of what makes it tick. Our TBM nieces with gaggles of children under 5 are loaded down with church "callings" and still manage to appear perfect with nary a hair out of place. Something has to give. Even those who are not prone to psychological illness are near the breaking point. For people like your wife it is just too much. Sadly, the more your wife does the more stressful life becomes and the likelihood that she will have a breakdown increases exponentially, making her feel more unworthy and the cycle continues ad nauseum.


Although a nevermo, I attended BYU for a couple of years, married an rm TBM and moved to a small UT town. Lived as a "dry Mormon" for a number of years and so have witnessed this behaviour fitst-hand.. I had always had a high level of anxiety throughout my life-depressed off and on and have the typical perfectionist personality that goes along with these life issues. I never became psychotic but only by God's grace. Your wife is, as you describe, in a double-bind of having to avoid stress and having her belief system tell her that the only way she can be worthy is to be "doing"-and doing a LOT for the Mormon church. It has been years since my TBM husband left Mormonism and became a Christian and I, re-affirmed my Christian faith. Christianity is not about "doing" but about a relationship with Christ. I am able to find comfort in my beliefs but they do not burden me. Mormons need to ask themselves how much is "enough" to please an all-perfect God anyway? In order to survive as a young mom (older mom as well for that matter) I had to have ZERO commitments to outside organizations. Even now with kids mostly grown I am careful to limit my obligations.

I think you should continue to be a support and encouragement to her-demand of her that she take on no church obligations and that a loving God offers grace-not burdens to drive a person into the ground.

A couple of thoughts from a someone who's wife also has a severe mental illness, in my wife's case, Borderline Personality Disorder.

The church was a nightmare for my wife. At first, it gave her acceptance and fed her emotional need to have a connection with other people, even if it was fake, thanks to the emphasis on emotional confirmation for everything, it fed her illness.

Over time, the guilt, the inability to be "perfect" and other issues wore away at what mental defenses that she had. Church became taxing and anxiety prone. The fake connections became obvious to her and she couldn't handle it anymore. Driving on to the church parking lot caused an instant anxiety attack.

So, I was a TBM, as true as true could be. Here, my wife, who was in obvious pain from the church couldn't attend, while I felt obligated to do so. I encouraged her to stay at home and supported her through it.

All the while, the bishop and other leaders in the church kept trying to pressure her to come, offering her calling after calling (sometimes, the "magazine rep", others just maintaining the roles, etc) She couldn't do it, it was too much guilt and stress and was causing more pain than anything else. It was a very, very dark time for her.

At one point, my father, in an odd moment of clarity for him (he's been on the high council, in Stake leadership roles, he's as TBM as they come, it wouldn't surprise me if he's had his 2nd anointing, but I don't know that for sure) he pulled me asside and said that I had to stand up for my wife. The church wasn't going to do it, they didn't understand her true needs and are going off the "script" that they need to keep her busy to keep her active when what she needs is true friendship and basically to be left alone. She wasn't capable of stating her needs like this to the bishop, I had to. No one else could, no one else would. He stressed that you can say no.

So, I won't tell you to "man-up" or anything like that. That's demeaning. You're already doing your best for your family, you have already maned-up by coming here for advice and help.

I would suggest having a frank and open discussion with your wife's bishop. State quite plainly in language that he will understand that your wife doesn't need a calling right now, even suggesting that she should have a calling would cause her guilt and pain. Maybe in the future that will change, but for now, drop it. State that you are telling him this as the patriarch of your family. That it would be best going forward, unless you tell him otherwise, that he should come to you if he has thoughts of giving her a calling. Be clear that you are doing this not because you don't believe that she can do the calling, but because you want her to focus on her health, mental and physical, without distraction and that needs to be her primary focus right now.

I'll also second what someone stated above about NAMI, if you haven't looked it up, the Family-to-Family class is wonderful. It is free and was extremely informative, I recommend it for anyone who has daily interaction with someone with a mental illness to help understand what's really going on, because things are so often misunderstood. The support groups are often quite good as well, though it might take a couple of times to get into the right one. There are also NAMI classes for people with mental illnesses, my wife went to one and got a lot out of it, so if your wife is open to it, it might help her as well.

I feel for you, I really do. I hope things go well for you.

Paulk...TONS of great advice here; am hoping you'll listen to it and act upon it.
There's not much more than I can add except to say that our hearts are with you.
I'm not even bi-polar, but YW President was the only calling that I ever asked to be released from.

Yes, thanks for the good advice and kick in the pants. I'm going to talk to my wife tonight, with my strong recommendation she not take the calling. If she doesn't agree (and that would be only because of feeling guilty), I'll tell the bishop. I do have confidence he won't push it. Like I said, he's not a jerk, but just not qualified for this situation.

I have also found the closest NAMI support groups for both patients and family members. Put it on the calendar for next week.

I served in that calling (RS Sec) at least a couple of times.

It wasn't a high-pressure calling. Just take attendance and participate in everything. Monthly reports of those who hadn't attended any meetings.

BUT Presidency meetings are usually a couple of hours, every week. They include a lot of gossip . . . er . . I mean confidential discussion of problems in the ward. Members of the Presidency discuss possible people for callings, and pray for inspiration. THAT might not be a great thing for her. But I gotta say, I sure noticed that when other people felt inspired about callings (I never got inspiration, BTW) the answer would usually come back 'no' from the bishop. So much for inspiration!

Occasional attendance at PEC on Sunday if other members of the Presidency can't attend. More 'confidential' airing of ward dirty laundry.

Upsides:
-lots of social interaction,
-might lessen whatever stigma she is feeling because she'll be one of the 'leaders'.
-If she can't make it to meetings, the other ladies in the presidency can take attendance or pass a roll around.
-they won't talk about her at the meeting if she's there ;-)

Realistic Downside: She probably really just needs to focus on taking care of herself and putting any mental energy she has into the family, not the church.

Suggestion: How about you tell the bishop that what your wife really needs is his blessing/permission to stay home from church when she feels overwhelmed.

And get her released from visit teaching, as well. It seems like that was a constant pressue.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2016 10:45AM by imaworkinonit.

Hi Paul,

Sorry I am seeing this so late, hope you're still checking.
I am an LCSW, and also have a diagnosis of Major Depression.
I am happy to see that you are involved with NAMI. I know they have been wonderful support for some of my patients' families.
My question for you is do you have your own therapist? Is that person a member of the LDS? Would you be comfortable seeing someone who is not? Also, what support do your kids have outside of family?
My best to all of you. Mental illness can be so cruel, and it's so painful to watch a loved one suffer, especially when you know what a wonderful person is actually in there, hurting. You and your family will be in my thoughts.
Jenna

Thanks ... I don't have my own therapist. We have gone to marriage counseling several times, but nothing on my own. Maybe I should. I would certainly be comfortable seeing someone who is not LDS. As a side note, even before this whole episode started, I didn't grow up in Utah, so I didn't have this irrational fear of non-LDS people like so many Utah Mormons (cue my in-laws) have.

My wife hasn't been going to her counselor for a few months. She felt like it wasn't doing anything for her. In reality she was so depressed she couldn't implement what she learned. Her therapist was LDS. Her parents insisted she get an LDS therapist to counteract the "wordly" non-LDS psychiatrist she sees. I think having an LDS counselor isn't entirely bad because at least she understands the culture and pressures.

My 14-year-old daughter went to a non-LDS therapist for a few months. It turns out when your mom tells you that Jesus came to her and told her that my daughter was wearing "slutty" clothes can cause a lot of issues. Fortunately, my wife now recognizes that was a manic delusion and not reality. Last month that therapist felt she had adequate tools for now at least.

Last night, I talked to my wife. I didn't pull the priesthood card, but said I was concerned about the stress that having a new calling would cause. I said I could talk to the bishop for her. She agreed pretty easily. I think it was sort of a relief. I'll talk to him today.

I really do hope you will pursue your own therapist. Remember the airplane safety message? Always put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others! Let me know if I can help.

If you have recommendations on some resources, I'd be glad to take a look. I do appreciate all the advice and resources here.

I definitely would get my own therapist. My therapist saved me.

Sorry you are going through so much. I second her not taking any callings and you talking to the bishop about not calling her.