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Posted by: nomonomo ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 03:05AM

Is it "true" that people who were more valiant are born into TBM families? In other words, is that what TBMs believe? Official doctrine, or just cultural?

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Posted by: ragnar ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 03:31AM

The most valiant in the pre-existence were the most white, born-in-the-covenant, born in the USA, and living in Utah (preferably SLC). That's what I was officially taught in their official churches by their official representatives. Therefore, that was their official doctrine (regardless of what they say now).

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Posted by: gatorman ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:08AM

I have blown it both places...

Gatorman

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Posted by: anonuk ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:29AM

back in the 70's we were taught in primary that we were special and privileged to be born to mormon parents and brought up 'in the gospel'. This was our reward for being such strong spirits in the pre-existence.

Of course, like many other things, this may be changed or interpreted differently now.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 09:31AM

I have come to think that this is a two-pronged approach to control members -
One, we are SO SPECIAL, the only true church(TM), the only genuine restored priesthood authority, and that we were so righteous we were chosen to be right here right now, we are so much better, more blessed than everyone else, wow doesn't everyone wish they could be us, if they only knew.
Two, we are never worthy. Just read The Miracle of Forgiveness (It's a Miracle if You Are Ever Forgiven) to realize how even if you repent, if you think an impure thought, boom! There's all that sin right back on you. There are two kinds of people, those who masturbate and those who lie. Mormons are such liars, and there's another sin. And those who don't lie confess and confess and confess about it and feel so broken and have no idea everyone else is lying about it. The bar of worthiness is perfection, of course we can't attain it. I mean, coffee! Horrible sin. This is craziness. And this is how they control you.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:37AM

I must have f--ked up real bad to be born into a TBM family.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:37AM

I thought the bestest of the best spirits were sent to LDS families in Scotland. Not Utah?

Then the borderline good spirits (those that were just above regular old gentiles) were sent to English LDS families.
The medium good spirits got to go to Utah families.

At least that is what we were taught in Scotland. ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2016 08:45AM by Darren Steers.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 10:05AM

Darren Steers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought the bestest of the best spirits were
> sent to LDS families in Scotland. Not Utah?

Those must be the only TRUE Scotsmen, then, right? ;-)

For the OP: Yes, that's what mormons believe.
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-6-our-premortal-life?lang=eng

From that link, by the way, is this gem (or is it turd?) from Boyd K. "little factory" Packer:

“There is no way to make sense out of life without a knowledge of the doctrine of premortal life.
“The idea that mortal birth is the beginning is preposterous. There is no way to explain life if you believe that.

“The notion that life ends with mortal death is ridiculous. There is no way to face life if you believe that.

“When we understand the doctrine of premortal life, then things fit together and make sense. We then know that little boys and little girls are not monkeys, nor are their parents, nor were theirs, to the very beginning generation."

Sigh. This is the "Doctrines of the Gospel" material the morg teaches kids with. Filling their heads with such crap.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 10:16AM

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Darren Steers Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought the bestest of the best spirits were
> > sent to LDS families in Scotland. Not Utah?
>
> Those must be the only TRUE Scotsmen, then, right?
> ;-)
>
LOL, good one.

Yes, only the families of true Scotsmen got a super-duper special spirit from the pre-existance.

Although my dad is English, so clearly there is some confusion up in heaven about what defines a true Scotsmen.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 12:19PM

And again, Lucifer's plan for "...elimination of the agency of the children of God..." begs the question: How is this *not* Lucifer's plan when you are brainwashed to do all the activities as a youngster, then go on a mission, get married, have a ton of kids, go to the temple, accept a ton of callings....?

I guess TBM's look at Lucifer's plan like everyone getting a Participation Trophy in Little League even they're on a crappy team.

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Posted by: tokki ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 11:48AM

I don't know that it's official doctrine (is any of it "official?"), but it's in my patriarchal blessing. Apparently I was among the most righteous that were able to choose our families on Earth so that we could be born in the covenant and raised in the gospel. My family converted when I was 12.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 11:54AM

my pre-existence was better than your pre-existence.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 12:00PM

Yes! And, I have the patriarchal blessing to prove it--just like tokki.

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Posted by: NormaRae ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 11:59AM

This was a huge belief when I was in high school and college. I do remember being told this in Institute class, but that Institute teacher was crazy, so I didn't pay much attention to what he said.

But I do remember being told that the reason I was born in the "last days" (you know, the 50s), in the good ol USofA, BIC to Mormon parents, etc., was because of my valiance in the pre-existence. And all I could think was "why did I have to be so damn valiant? Why couldn't I have been like my friend Patti who was just valiant enought to be born into a good normal Methodist family but had all the other perks of being born in the USA in the last days. I thought she was so lucky because she could date and marry anyone she wanted, was encouraged to get a college degree, didn't have to look forward to being imprisoned in ugly undies the rest of her life and didn't have to be embarassed by having to wear skirts to her knees back in the mini-skirt days (before girls could wear pants to school).

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Posted by: getbusylivin ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 12:51PM

In my pre-existence I was pond scum. But because of hard work, determination, and the love and devotion of my parents (also pond scum), I made it all the way to rodent in this life the first time around!

However, I didn't notice that the cheese I was trying to steal was connected to a mouse trap. Damn thing broke my neck :(

So, it was back to pre-existence for GBL. But, again, because of my determination and the support of my folks (also rodents) I was able to skip several stages (companion animal, monkey, Negro) and end up back here again as a full-fledged honky priesthood holder!

And now that I know all the secret handshakes and what not I can kick back and think about what kind of curtains to order for my upcoming planet! (I hope Amazon delivers up there.) Ain't the Plan of Salvation wonderful?

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Posted by: Elders Quorum Drop-out ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 12:57PM

I know that patriarchal blessings do the same thing. Make you feel "extra" special by telling you how faithful and valiant you were in the pre existence. Which tells youth that they need to live up to who they were before they got to earth. Manipulation at it's finest.

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 01:07PM

Nevermo here but I have two comments. The first one is that I think this is a terrible thing to teach this to children. And....how can you be valiant in the preexistence? Valiant, how?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2016 01:08PM by cinda.

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Posted by: en passant ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 01:24PM

Growing up in the '50s, our understanding of the lessons of the pre-existence not only included the certainty that we had earned the right to be Mormon, white, American, and Utahn (probably in that order), but also that there were various sub--degrees that were awarded within those major categories that made up a great and glorious pecking order.

For example, if you were a Bishop's kid, you had certainly been more valiant in the pre-existence than I was. Even though I qualified in the first four categories, my dad wasn't a bishop. In fact he wasn't even a member, so my place in the great pecking order was well below that of kids who were born in the covenant.

There were other unspoken sub-degrees as well. If you were from Idaho, your pre-existence was assumed to be less valiant than kids born in Utah. Maybe Nevada was next, I'm not sure, but definitely a notch or two below optimum.

White-collar families and blue-collar families were also counted in the great scheme of things. My family was decidedly blue-collar, so I got kicked down a rung or two for that, well below those kids whose dads were dentists. And we were certain the kids from those jack-mormon families we visited on our home-teaching routes but never ever saw in church, must have really screwed up in the pre-existence.

These days I suppose the folklore continues. I know that my TBM relatives take great pride in their purity and delightsomeness among the hordes of the great unwashed.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 03:43PM

ALL Mormon doctrine is cultural, and subject to revocation when it becomes too embarrassing.

The only official doctrine is that there is no official doctrine.

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Posted by: EXON46 ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 03:55PM

We know about whites and we know about blacks, but what about gingers? What's up with them, what did they do?

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 04:13PM

While the War in heaven was going on, gingers were in the basement playing Dungeons and Dragons.

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Posted by: randyj ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 07:21PM

It begins with the Book of Abraham, chapter 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

The church has published many sermons and lessons expanding on these verses, saying that Joseph Smith was God's "choicest" spirit of all. For instance, Ezra Daft Benson taught:

“So it was with Joseph Smith. He too was there. He too sat in council with the noble and great ones. Occupying a prominent place of honor and distinction he unquestionably helped in the planning and execution of the great work of the Lord to ‘bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,’ the salvation of all our Father’s children [Moses 1:39]. His mission had had, and was to have, impact on all who had come to earth; all who then dwelt on earth and the millions yet unborn."

The church has also taught that other church leaders were also among the "noble and great ones." Basically, the "choicier" spirits in the pre-existence are born into the more righteous, spiritual, active families on earth. Brigham Young taught:

"The spirits which are reserved have to be born into the world, and the Lord will prepare some way for them to have tabernacles. Spirits must be born, even if they have to come to brothels for their fleshly coverings, and many of them will take the lowest and meanest spirit house that there is in the world, rather than do without, and will say, “Let me have a tabernacle, that I may have a chance to be perfected.”.....This revelation, which God gave to Joseph, was for the express purpose of providing a channel for the organization of tabernacles, for those spirits to occupy who have been reserved to come forth in the kingdom of God, and that they might not be obliged to take tabernacles out of the kingdom of God."

http://jod.mrm.org/3/264

See also:

https://archive.org/stream/ForWhatPurpose/For-What-Purpose_djvu.txt

http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mark-E-Petersen-1954-Mormon_Apostle-Race-Relations

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 07:58PM

As a TBM, I never bought into choosing one's parents. Why would I have selected a bi-polar alcoholic parent? Da Bone.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:19PM

If you can stomach it, try finding a copy or video of Saturday's Warriors. The lyrics to theme song:

"Who are these children coming down, coming down.
Like gentle rain though darken skies.
With glory trailing from their feet as they go.
And endless promise in their eyes!
Who are these youn ones growing tall, growing tall.
Like silver trees against the storm.
Who will not bend with the wind or the change,
But stand to fight the world alone!
These are the few, the warriors
Saved for Saturday, to come
The last day of the world
These are they, on Saturday.
These are the strong, the warriors
Rising in the might to win
The battle raging in
The hearts of men, on Saturday.
Strangers from a realn of light
Who have forgotten all.
The memory of their former life.
The purpose of their call.
And so they must learn why they're here
And who they really are.
They must learn why they're here
And who they are!
These are the few, the warriors
Saved for Saturday, to come
The last day of the world
These are they, on Saturday." ~ Lex de Azevado

Does that answer your question?

Another hit song from the theater production is "Humble Way," of two missionaries in the pre-existence singing about their future life on earth:

"Humble Way

We are not the ordinary,
Fearlessly extraodinary,
Workin' righteous Hari Kari,
In our Humble Way.
Humble Way now.
Humble Way, oh Humble Way

Bearing swords of truth we plunder,
slicing wicked men asunder,
We are something of a wonder,
In our Humble Way.
Humble Way now.
Humble Way, oh Humble Way.

Crooked generation,
We demand your veneration.
Will you shake your heel at us
As we call you to your knees?
Crooked generation,
Will you scoff at ordination?
We are warriors by a right,
So respect us if you please!

We are not the ordinary,
Fearlessly extraodinary,
Workin' righteous Hari Kari,
In our Humble Way.
Humble Way now.
Humble Way, oh Humble Way." ~ Lex de Azevado

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: July 20, 2016 08:47PM

When I was at the Y, I joked that I was waiting for Saturday's Warrior to become the fifth standard work. I probably had potential apostate written all over me. I never actually saw it until many years later and couldn't believe that so many people bought into the choosing the parent stuff. Shalom!

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